248 replies to this topic

[Sci-2]

From the FP Issue Kal linked to:

1) Why do They Hate Us? - An Arab Woman on the misogyny of the Mid-East

Quote

In a crisp three-and-a-half pages, Rifaat lays out a trifecta of sex, death, and religion, a bulldozer that crushes denial and defensiveness to get at the pulsating heart of misogyny in the Middle East. There is no sugarcoating it. They don't hate us because of our freedoms, as the tired, post-9/11 American cliché had it. We have no freedoms because they hate us, as this Arab woman so powerfully says.
Yes: They hate us. It must be said.

2) He's Not Alone- Brevik is part of a rising tide of anti-Muslim beliefs

Quote

The biggest mistake that Europeans could make while watching the ongoing trial of Anders Behring Breivik in Norway is to discount his rambling tirades against Islam and multiculturism as the ravings of a crackpot. Whether clinically sane or not -- the Norwegian psychiatrists at the pretrialflip-flopped on this -- Breivik's thousand-page manifesto and his convictions in general are not the bizarre product of a "delusional thought universe," as the first psychiatric report concluded. On the contrary, Breivik's "thought universe" bears all the staples of a political ideology that accurately reflects a potent Islamophobic discourse that has taken hold across the continent and beyond since the 9/11 attacks.

[Solmyr]

Fine articles, but what exactly do you want to discuss about Islamism and Islamophobia? Whether it exists? Why it exists? Whether it is OK? What we can do to prevent it?

Also, Islamism and Islamophobia are very, very different on the two sides of the pond and despite Breivik's historical act of terrorism and his manifesto, Europe is still much more tolerant towards Islamic people than the US.

[Brienne the Beauty]

Solmyr, on 27 April 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

Also, Islamism and Islamophobia are very, very different on the two sides of the pond and despite Breivik's historical act of terrorism and his manifesto, Europe is still much more tolerant towards Islamic people than the US.

Oh no it isn't. I assume you are from the USA and think that no-one could be more Islamophobic than the folks who protest against mosques and the like. I have to say they have nothing on Europe, where there are many openly far-right Islamophobic parties.

Personally I think both things that sciborg mentioned are two sides of the same coin. There are intolerant bigots in every society; the difference is a) who the target is and b ) how society deals with it.

Edited by Brienne the Beauty, 27 April 2012 - 07:43 PM.

[Solmyr]

Brienne the Beauty, on 27 April 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

Oh no it isn't. I assume you are from the USA and think that no-one could be more Islamophobic than the folks who protest against mosques and the like. I have to say they have nothing on Europe, where there are many openly far-right Islamophobic parties.

Actually I am from Europe and I have lived and traveled to several EU countries (incl. Netherlands and Germany, which have a large Islamic population) and interacted with Europeans from almost every country. You are correct that there are political parties in Europe that are anti-Islamic, but they are usually anti-immigrant in general and that includes a wide variety of minorities. In most countries these parties hold the barest minimum of parliament representatives, if they are in parliament at all, and the only real influence they exercise is in the cases when the dominant parliament party lacks majority and is forced to make a coalition with these extremists.

But if you walked down on the street and started asking random people, in both Europe and the US, very few Europeans will actually admit to disliking, let alone hating, Islamic people. They may ramble a little about immigrants stealing their jobs, but nothing radical. I haven't been to the US, but I am under the impression that many normal people, not even from NY, hate Islamic people. Furthermore the US government is much harsher on Muslims than the all-talk-no-action politicians in Europe ever could be.

[Sci-2]

I wanted a bit of the European and if possible, Middle Eastern, perspectives on those articles.

I think both articles attempt to interrogate people's, especially Westerners, reactions to varied perceptions of Islam and the Middle East.

One is an attempt to cut through political correctness of the Left, the other is examining the dangerous prejudice of the Right.

[Brienne the Beauty]

Solmyr, on 27 April 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

But if you walked down on the street and started asking random people, in both Europe and the US, very few Europeans will actually admit to disliking, let alone hating, Islamic people. They may ramble a little about immigrants stealing their jobs, but nothing radical. I haven't been to the US, but I am under the impression that many normal people, not even from NY, hate Islamic people. Furthermore the US government is much harsher on Muslims than the all-talk-no-action politicians in Europe ever could be.

I've lived in both the US and Europe, and though I don't make a habit of asking people on the street whether they are Islamophobic, I don't find open Islamophobia all that common anywhere I have lived. In the USA, the hot-button issue is more Hispanic illegal immigrants. NY is a very cosmopolitan city and Islamophobia is not big there, despite what you might guess from historical events. I get the feeling there is a lot more Islamic immigration to Europe than the USA, and that's why tension is high there.

Racism is less complex than you might imagine. A good rule of thumb is that whatever the largest poor minority in an area is, those will be the ones who experience most bigotry.

[Josephxoxo]

Quote

Actually I am from Europe and I have lived and traveled to several EU countries (incl. Netherlands and Germany, which have a large Islamic population) and interacted with Europeans from almost every country. You are correct that there are political parties in Europe that are anti-Islamic, but they are usually anti-immigrant in general and that includes a wide variety of minorities. In most countries these parties hold the barest minimum of parliament representatives, if they are in parliament at all, and the only real influence they exercise is in the cases when the dominant parliament party lacks majority and is forced to make a coalition with these extremists.

But if you walked down on the street and started asking random people, in both Europe and the US, very few Europeans will actually admit to disliking, let alone hating, Islamic people. They may ramble a little about immigrants stealing their jobs, but nothing radical. I haven't been to the US, but I am under the impression that many normal people, not even from NY, hate Islamic people. Furthermore the US government is much harsher on Muslims than the all-talk-no-action politicians in Europe ever could be.

Well we only hate Muslims that don't assimialte from what I've seen. I personally can't stand Muslim's who walk in the summer time with a big black costume like they're about to rob a bank.

[Serious Callers Only]

Islam is misogynist by design - probably more that any form of Christianity. Think about about that before being proud of "tolerance".
And to be clear, i'm a equal opportunity bigot about this (atheist).

Edited by Serious Callers Only, 27 April 2012 - 08:13 PM.

[IheartTesla]

Well, there have been arguments made that the original form of Islam was a step up for women compared to what was present at the times. However, over time it was taken over by a male patriarchy/hierarchy that messed it up for women. This is a pattern that asserts itself over many religions (an argument made in A History of God by Karen Carpenter).

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

Solmyr, on 27 April 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

Fine articles, but what exactly do you want to discuss about Islamism and Islamophobia? Whether it exists? Why it exists? Whether it is OK? What we can do to prevent it?

Also, Islamism and Islamophobia are very, very different on the two sides of the pond and despite Breivik's historical act of terrorism and his manifesto, Europe is still much more tolerant towards Islamic people than the US.

As a muslim living in the US, I've never had any tolerance problems.  Every news story I hear vis a vis muslims in Europe makes it sound like a horrible place for us.

Edited by Xir’kirimakra, 27 April 2012 - 08:31 PM.

[Solmyr]

Xir, on 27 April 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

As a muslim living in the US, I've never had any tolerance problems.  Every news story I hear vis a vis muslims in Europe makes it sound like a horrible place for us.

I'm happy for you and glad that the stories I've heard about the US are not as one-sided as I suspected. There are certain cities, Berlin in particular, where there is more tension, but in general Europeans are very tolerant people. Else we wouldn't have built the EU and stuff .

[gryphon strike]

I was thinking about this and the more I thought about it I found the more wrongs found on both sides ie East Vs West but if one were to compare the wrongs done I think the West has done far more to the East/Islam than the other way around I mean when was the last time an Islamic country invaded a Christian one?
Even leaving that aside it is often western support for tyrannical leaders that has caused the hatred that sparked attacks, no I am not saying they were right to do so but neither am I saying that we the West are without blame. Western business practices in Islamic countries are often not just unfair but not conducted to safe standards. These Western business's often support those that are oppressing the people since if they don't then they will not get to exploit the country.
It has taken 2 wars to get the west to invest in the infrastructure of 2 Islamic countries so look at it from the perspective of the people in those countries.
Your country has been invaded the streets are patrolled by foreign troops who often make no effort to understand your culture and in many cases actually treat you as "lesser" than them despite thier claims of moral superiority and equality for all. How would most of us react to that?
Would we place bombs on those roads where thier tanks and armoured vehicles would travel?
Would we attack them in any and every way possible?
I like to beleive we would never use children as weapons of war but honestly do you think our politicians would risk themselves or someones  kids?

[Lightning Lord]

Josephxoxo, on 27 April 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

Well we only hate Muslims that don't assimialte from what I've seen. I personally can't stand Muslim's who walk in the summer time with a big black costume like they're about to rob a bank.

What do you think of as properly assimilating?  I'm genuinely curious.  And why do you take issue with someone's clothing?  How does it hurt you if someone wears expansive black clothing in summer?  I think they'd be more comfortable wearing shorts and t-shirts, but I see no reason to dislike someone because of what they wear.  I tend to dress lightly in winter because cold doesn't bother me as much as other people, I hope that doesn't offend people.

[gryphon strike]

I don't know about "proper assimilation" but I do know that when I see children of refugee family's pushing for Shariah law here in Australia I tend to think fine thats what they want then they can piss off back where thier parents came from. If they became a majority and tried to bring Shariah law into this country then I would be faced with leaving or fighting but no way could I accept shariah as law.

[Ser Robin Hill]

gryphon strike, on 28 April 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

I don't know about "proper assimilation" but I do know that when I see children of refugee family's pushing for Shariah law here in Australia I tend to think fine thats what they want then they can piss off back where thier parents came from. If they became a majority and tried to bring Shariah law into this country then I would be faced with leaving or fighting but no way could I accept shariah as law.

It never ceases to amaze me that governments do not realize that permitting immigration of people whose cultural imperatives clash with their's, will not result in peace and harmony.  I'm also surprised that people who endure hardship to leave one country and go to another, turn around and want to turn their new country into what their old one was.

[Lightning Lord]

It never ceases to amaze me that you can paint an entire population of people with one brush.  Despite the limitless examples of people living just fine with peace and harmony, despite differing cultural imperatives (we'll ignore your simplification of cultural imperatives), you still insist that it's impossible.

And why would you be surprised that someone wants their new environment to resemble the previous?  Even if it's terrible, there's a comforting degree of familiarity.  Most immigrants are fine with giving up the repression, but still want some similarities.  It's hard to divorce oneself from conditioned norms, there's always a sense of not belonging.  It's hard to live with every day, that's why cultural enclaves develop in cities with large numbers of immigrants.  Those enclaves should and generally do respect US law.  There are people who don't do so, just as there are full-on Americans that flout the law.

[gryphon strike]

Some do Robin but the majority don't, I had for years only had bad associations with Turkish immigrants yet even with that being the case I knew they were not all like that. Later on I got to meet members of the Turkish community in Melbourne and found that there were a lot more good Turks here than bad ones.

You also need to realise that there are people within the communities that they move to who hate them just for being different, hell I met one racist once who said that all boat people needed to be met by machine guns. I politely expressed my disgust with his attitude and almost ended up in a fight with him and his mate. No nation or culture has a monopoly on dumb scumbags.

[TrueMetis]

gryphon strike, on 28 April 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

I don't know about "proper assimilation" but I do know that when I see children of refugee family's pushing for Shariah law here in Australia I tend to think fine thats what they want then they can piss off back where thier parents came from. If they became a majority and tried to bring Shariah law into this country then I would be faced with leaving or fighting but no way could I accept shariah as law.

You know that Sharia law isn't a set thing right? It's open to a lot of interpretation and depending on the interpreter can range from very conservative to almost excessively liberal. Now if your against it because it is inherently religious in origin sure I can agree with that, but to treat it like it is somehow inferior to secular because it is religious is to ignore just how much lawyer and politicians can twist the law to get things to work the way they want it to.

[TerraPrime]

Robin Hill, on 28 April 2012 - 12:51 AM, said:

It never ceases to amaze me that governments do not realize that permitting immigration of people whose cultural imperatives clash with their's, will not result in peace and harmony.  I'm also surprised that people who endure hardship to leave one country and go to another, turn around and want to turn their new country into what their old one was.

How very short-sighted and revisionist. By that standard, we ought not have let any of the Irish Catholics immigrated to the U.S., nor any of the Orthodox Jews. Many immigrants come from cultures with mores and norms that clash with the U.S. point of view on one thing or another. Or, hey, how about them Amish, eh?

Also, it's no more strange for recent immigrants to want to er-create parts of their original culture than it is for people who stay with the same style of interior decor when they move to a new house or apartment. Just because people flee their home country for reason X, it doesn't follow that they reject everything about their original culture. Chinese immigrants who fled the communist party, for instance, left the country not because they dislike Chinese culture, but because they fear for their lives under the Communist regimes and they think that the U.S. gives their children more of a chance to succeed. Many first generation Chinese and Vietnamese immigrants of the lower SEC who end up in the Chinatowns and Vietnamese Towns end up speaking mostly their original language, and their food and other cultures remain largely the same as when they were in their home country. Yet, there's no huge outcry against them like there is for Muslim immigrants.

Edited by Typical Woman, 28 April 2012 - 01:46 AM.

[gryphon strike]

Truemetis I don't want the law to be rigid and inflexible, but I do beleive that while religion should be a guide it should not rule or it just becomes politics.
Just as there are degrees of crimes I beleive there should be degrees of punishment with the greatest punishments being for those crimes that include a breach of trust, ie corrupt police commiting murder they get life in prison no parol no release.