119 replies to this topic

[Apple Martini]

Winter, on 01 May 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

She comes up with most of her armies' plans-Astapor was her's, Volantis was her's.

You mean Yunkai? Volantis is still standing and not in total disarray, so I don't believe she's been there yet.

[LifeRuiner]

Euphail, on 01 May 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

But the complication is that I think Dany also has the most to fear in the North: Wargs. I ascribe to the idea that there was a reason Aegon didn't invade the North with his dragons, and why Valaryia let Westeros be when their empire was expanding.

An attitude of do as I say or you will burn may not be a solid strategy. She had best learn how to negotiate, or else she will find her greatest weapon suddenly turn against her. Bran is coming...


ETA: sorry very off topic.

I'm also curious about why you think that Bran and Dany are natural enemies. I'd have thought that in the big battle of seasons, there are two supernatural forces with dubious intentions (R'Hllor and whatever is driving The Others), and Bran representing the good force that might be called Nature who probably just wants them all to go away and leave Westeros alone. While it is possible that Dany's dragons, being fire made flesh, were intended or used as tools of R'Hllor in the past, it doesn't mean that Dany would care to side with this religion rather than with the people of Westeros.

I don't know how off-topic this is? It does involve the influence of Dany's personality on her military strategy, and this thinking with her heart is partly why she has been our favorite character.

[Euphail]

LifeRuiner, on 01 May 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

I'm also curious about why you think that Bran and Dany are natural enemies. I'd have thought that in the big battle of seasons, there are two supernatural forces with dubious intentions (R'Hllor and whatever is driving The Others), and Bran representing the good force that might be called Nature who probably just wants them all to go away and leave Westeros alone. While it is possible that Dany's dragons, being fire made flesh, were intended or used as tools of R'Hllor in the past, it doesn't mean that Dany would care to side with this religion rather than with the people of Westeros.

I don't know how off-topic this is? It does involve the influence of Dany's personality on her military strategy, and this thinking with her heart is partly why she has been our favorite character.

A woman whose family yours helped over throw because her father burned your uncle and grandfather comes back with dragons threatening your kinsmen unless you bow down to her. In return she'll help you. But what she doesn't know is that you don't really need her, just her dragons, which you can control.

Meh, I'd take the dragon, burn her crispy and rule as the winged wolf.

The other possibility is some other random warg decides he'd like to raise his/her station a little bit, and a dragon is a fantastic means to do that.

This speculates that dragons can be warged. It's been said that green seers can warg any animal on ground, air or sea, but dragons may prove different. Who knows.

edit: spelling, apprently I'm an idiot in the morning.

Edited by Euphail, 01 May 2012 - 11:16 AM.

[Apple Martini]

Euphail, on 01 May 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

A woman who's family yours helped over throw because her father burned your uncle and grandfather comes back with dragons threatening your kinsmen unless you bow down to her. In return she'll help you. But what she doesn't know is that you don't really need her, just her dragons, which you can control.

Meh, I'd take the dragon, burn her crispy and rule as the winged wolf.

The other possibility is some other random warg decides he'd like to raise his/her station a little bit, and a dragon is a fantastic means to do that.

This speculates that dragons can be warged. It's been said that green seers can warg any animal on ground, air or sea, but dragons may prove different. Who knows.

This basically. The idea of Bran and Dany as allies suggests that Dany has something of value to offer to Bran.

As for dragon warging ... not a matter of if, but when.

[ARYa_Nym]

Bran doesn't even think vengeful thoughts about Jaime or Theon. He's actually the only one of the Stark children who is like this imo.

I doubt he would hate someone because of something that has nothing to do with him.

I think he's moved on. He's not focused on the North or Winterfell anymore.

Quote

"What was he now? Only Bran the broken boy, Brandon of House Stark, prince of a lost kingdom, lord of a burned castle, heir to ruins. He had thought the three-eyed crow would be a sorcerer, a wise old wizard who could fix his legs, but that was some stupid child's dream, he realized now. I am too old for such fancies, he told himself. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. That was as good as being a knight. Almost as good, anyway."

If Bran and Dany aren't allies it would be because of Bloodraven and the COTF.

Edited by ARYa_Nym, 01 May 2012 - 11:32 AM.

[Winter's Knight]

Apple Martini, on 01 May 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

You mean Yunkai? Volantis is still standing and not in total disarray, so I don't believe she's been there yet.

Damnation, this Essosi names-yes I did mean Yunkai.

Apple Martini, on 01 May 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

This basically. The idea of Bran and Dany as allies suggests that Dany has something of value to offer to Bran.

As for dragon warging ... not a matter of if, but when.

And the other two dragons?

[LifeRuiner]

Euphail, on 01 May 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

snip

Then we will have to agree to disagree. Practically all characters that Martin likes have found ways to solve their differences in the end, and I don't see why with a minimum of communication, Bran and Dany wouldn't be able to go past the old vendettas. It is also a more plausible outcome towards the end of the franchise as it solves problems instead of adding problems to the mix.

[Apple Martini]

Winter, on 01 May 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

And the other two dragons?

How do you think most of the Targaryen dragons died? They killed each other.

In any case, if it comes to that, I count six living wargs that we know of.

Edited by Apple Martini, 01 May 2012 - 11:33 AM.

[Euphail]

LifeRuiner, on 01 May 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

Then we will have to agree to disagree. Practically all characters that Martin likes have found ways to solve their differences in the end, and I don't see why with a minimum of communication, Bran and Dany wouldn't be able to go past the old vendettas. It is also a more plausible outcome towards the end of the franchise as it solves problems instead of adding problems to the mix.

That's fair. To be honest, I give it at best even odds on whether Dany is alive at the end of the books. We have a warg training as an assassin. To me, that seems to be pointed at one specific end, but maybe it's at another dragon rider and not Dany. Time will tell.

Dany approach to conquering though seems to be less about listening and forgiveness of those she feels have done wrong, and more about retrobution. I've said it before, fire consumes is how I've seen her ruling style. I don't know how well this bodes for the "usurpers dogs." To her, Starks are among the worst. Maybe she'll learn from Barristan, maybe not.

I also wonder how happy she'll be with the people who will prop up a Blackfyre to the throne? Her family has always loved them.

[ARYa_Nym]

Dany wants vengeance but it's not like she's the only one like that.

Jon said in ADWD:

Quote

"It's death and destruction I want to bring down upon House Lannister, not scorn."

He was also upset that Tommen lived yet Bran was "dead."

Arya is of course like that.

Robb didn't go the Doran route. He wanted to avenge his father.

The Martells waited too long except for Oberyn but they want the same thing.

I don't see what's wrong with that. Rhaegar's children and Viserys and Dany were not responsible for Aerys' crimes yet had to pay for it anyway.

She may not hate the Starks anymore if she ever wants to learn about the details of the war but that wouldn't make them allies. I don't see the problem with it either. They aren't natural allies anyway.

EDIT: & I just remembered that Jon Connington wants to end the Usurper's line. I'm not sure if  Dany would do this so Jon/Aegon/Varys, etc. will go after innocents if successful.

Also, a lot of people on the forums hate all the Freys even though many of them had no part in the RW. They, very much like Dany are going by guilt by association.

Edited by ARYa_Nym, 01 May 2012 - 12:18 PM.

[Euphail]

ARYa_Nym, on 01 May 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Dany wants vengeance but it's not like she's the only one like that.

Jon said in ADWD:


He was also upset that Tommen lived yet Bran was "dead."

Arya is of course like that.

Robb didn't go the Doran route. He wanted to avenge his father.

The Martells waited too long except for Oberyn but they want the same thing.

I don't see what's wrong with that. Rhaegar's children and Viserys and Dany were not responsible for Aerys' crimes yet had to pay for it anyway.

She may not hate the Starks anymore if she ever wants to learn about the details of the war but that wouldn't make them allies. I don't see the problem with it either. They aren't natural allies anyway.

EDIT: & I just remembered that Jon Connington wants to end the Usurper's line. I'm not sure if  Dany would do this so Jon/Aegon/Varys, etc. will go after innocents if successful.

Also, a lot of people on the forums hate all the Freys even though many of them had no part in the RW. They, very much like Dany are going by guilt by association.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Yes others are vengeful in the series - I wasn't arguing otherwise. If anything this lends credence to the idea that there will be conflict between Dany and other characters in the books when she gets to Westeros, and that warging will be a rather rude surprise for her if she attempts a rain of fire rule in the North.

I’ve always had mixed feelings about the use of dragons in war. They’re a bit like a favorite hammer, once you use it you never want to use anything else… even when the realm calls for sound fiscal management, you still want to use your hammer. If Dany falls into that rhythm with her dragons, she’ll have a rough time in the North.

Other posters have commented on Dany’s guile. Hope that she learns to develop that skill over developing her dragon flame-thrower if she hopes to hold her rule. She needs allies, and she hasn’t had the best go of holding on to those. Fire consumes, ice endures.

[ARYa_Nym]

Euphail, on 01 May 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Yes others are vengeful in the series - I wasn't arguing otherwise. If anything this lends credence to the idea that there will be conflict between Dany and other characters in the books when she gets to Westeros, and that warging will be a rather rude surprise for her if she attempts a rain of fire rule in the North.

I’ve always had mixed feelings about the use of dragons in war. They’re a bit like a favorite hammer, once you use it you never want to use anything else… even when the realm calls for sound fiscal management, you still want to use your hammer. If Dany falls into that rhythm with her dragons, she’ll have a rough time in the North.

Other posters have commented on Dany’s guile. Hope that she learns to develop that skill over developing her dragon flame-thrower if she hopes to hold her rule. She needs allies, and she hasn’t had the best go of holding on to those. Fire consumes, ice endures.

We don't have enough info on exactly what are the requirements to be able to warg a dragon. If only Bran can do it he's not concerned with the North/Winterfell at the moment.

Bloodraven and the COTF may not not care for Dany but they not care for the North either. They have their own agenda and we don't know what that is yet.

The only Usurper that is left is Stannis. She may come into conflict with him but it depends on how they both act. Ned is dead so there's really no point to want to destroy the house. It's fallen already and may come back but it will be led by those that had nothing to do with Robert's Rebellion. I don't remember her expressing a desire to go after Cersei's children like Jon Connington so I'm skeptical of the belief that she will go after Ned's children.


She does need allies.Dany's problem will be more with who she may be coming to Westeros with. Most likely she will need the ones that Aegon is getting by going to Westeros before her and her entourage may turn them off. The Targaryens were able to establish allies when they had dragons and the Starks weren't one of them.
.

[Feather Crystal]

I agree with "when she purchased the Unsullied". Such a clever, clever girl.

[Euphail]

ARYa_Nym, on 01 May 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

We don't have enough info on exactly what are the requirements to be able to warg a dragon. If only Bran can do it he's not concerned with the North/Winterfell at the moment.

I disagree. There's a reason he's warging crows around Stannis. Bran's home and kinsmen are in the North, he's a Stark and knows his duty. Bran is coming.

I agree though, we don't know the requirements for warging a dragon. We do know that they are highly intelligent and willful, so I think it's fair to say only the stronger wargs could do it if they can.

Quote

Bloodraven and the COTF may not not care for Dany but they not care for the North either.

Bloodraven cares quite a bit about the North. He cares an aweful lot about house Targaryen, and Jon. He's also a man of the nights watch. We may not expressly know his end game, but he hasn't been arranging for Jon to be Lord Commander, and hissing/clawing at Lannisters because he hates the world of men.
I guess this an interpretation of evidence though, so to each their own.

Quote

The only Usurper that is left is Stannis. She may come into conflict with him but it depends on how they both act.

Fair. Though let's be honest, Stannis has to die for there to be resolution between these two. Stannis isn't about to bend the knee, and neither is Dany. Beyond Stannis, did Dany refer to the "dogs" by name? I got the feeling that she had anger towards the house, not the individual. Personally I think her gut reaction would be for the Lannisters to pay dearly, with Tywin's decision to sack the city, Jaime slaying Aerys, and the mountain slaying her nephew/neice. Dorne may suffer when it is revealed who Aegon really is (I assume Dorne is going to capitalize on Faegon).

But I don't understand the rational behind the North bending the knee if Dany tries to take them. I think it's pretty natural for the Northerners to want dragons in the fight again wights, but why take Dany and her rule when they can have a Stark eat her through her dragon (assumably.) "I know no King but the King in the North, whose name is Stark." Perhaps we should just rely on Brans altruism? What would happen though if Jon stood against her, what would he do then? or Sansa? would he protect his family over some dragon who wants to burn her kinsmen into submission?

Maybe individual Lords will feel different when a dragon is on their doorstep, but if Bran wargs her dragon even once Dany will have a hard choice. She can leave the north be or bend to what they want.

It's all speculation though, so every opinion is valid until we see it. She can be a clever girl when she wants to be, but she needs to do a better job defining her end game, and learning how to rule. She has no friends in the seven kingdoms, and if Bran wargs a dragon, she'll have even less.

[Apple Martini]

Euphail, on 01 May 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

I disagree. There's a reason he's warging crows around Stannis. Bran's home and kinsmen are in the North, he's a Stark and knows his duty. Bran is coming.

I agree though, we don't know the requirements for warging a dragon. We do know that they are highly intelligent and willful, so I think it's fair to say only the stronger wargs could do it if they can.

Bloodraven cares quite a bit about the North. He cares an aweful lot about house Targaryen, and Jon. He's also a man of the nights watch. We may not expressly know his end game, but he hasn't been arranging for Jon to be Lord Commander, and hissing/clawing at Lannisters because he hates the world of men.
I guess this an interpretation of evidence though, so to each their own.

I agree with this. Given what Bloodraven has said and orchestrated through Mormont's raven and (possibly) him sending the direwolves, and evidence of Bran's own interventions here and there (including in the Winterfell godswood), I don't see any indication that they're completely disinterested in what's happening in the North. On the contrary, I'd say that they're very interested.

Quote

But I don't understand the rational behind the North bending the knee if Dany tries to take them. I think it's pretty natural for the Northerners to want dragons in the fight again wights, but why take Dany and her rule when they can have a Stark eat her through her dragon (assumably.) "I know no King but the King in the North, whose name is Stark." Perhaps we should just rely on Brans altruism? What would happen though if Jon stood against her, what would he do then? or Sansa? would he protect his family over some dragon who wants to burn her kinsmen into submission?

Maybe individual Lords will feel different when a dragon is on their doorstep, but if Bran wargs her dragon even once Dany will have a hard choice. She can leave the north be or bend to what they want.

I've said this before, but I truly believe, in my gut, that the reason GRRM's history has Torrhen Stark kneeling rather than fighting was to deny readers a precedent on which to rely when it comes to Wargs vs. Dragons, or even just Starks vs. Targs.

As for dragon-warging, it seems like a Chekov's bazooka waiting to go off. Wild animals that are the equivalent of weapons of mass destruction, and five living children in the same family who are, in layman's terms, genetic freaks with the power to possess and take control of wild animals. Gosh, I wonder what's going to happen there.

Edited by Apple Martini, 01 May 2012 - 01:55 PM.

[ARYa_Nym]

Euphail, on 01 May 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

I disagree. There's a reason he's warging crows around Stannis. Bran's home and kinsmen are in the North, he's a Stark and knows his duty. Bran is coming.

I agree though, we don't know the requirements for warging a dragon. We do know that they are highly intelligent and willful, so I think it's fair to say only the stronger wargs could do it if they can.

I posted a quote upthread from ADWD. I don't think people have taken into account how much getting crippled has changed his life goals and has depressed him.   He even said once who would want to follow him because he's a cripple. He's now focused on being a greenseer because it gives him a new chance at life.

He may be keeping tabs on the North and he may interfere like how he did with Theon but we don't know why he's doing that. I don't think we can say with confidence that it's to help the Starks or the North.

Euphail, on 01 May 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

Bloodraven cares quite a bit about the North. He cares an aweful lot about house Targaryen, and Jon. He's also a man of the nights watch. We may not expressly know his end game, but he hasn't been arranging for Jon to be Lord Commander, and hissing/clawing at Lannisters because he hates the world of men.
I guess this an interpretation of evidence though, so to each their own.

I think it's possible that he does still care but we don't have confirmation. He calls Jon king so he intends for him to be one. King of what though? The wildlings, the North, Westeros, or the Night's King?

Euphail, on 01 May 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

Fair. Though let's be honest, Stannis has to die for there to be resolution between these two. Stannis isn't about to bend the knee, and neither is Dany. Beyond Stannis, did Dany refer to the "dogs" by name? I got the feeling that she had anger towards the house, not the individual. Personally I think her gut reaction would be for the Lannisters to pay dearly, with Tywin's decision to sack the city, Jaime slaying Aerys, and the mountain slaying her nephew/neice. Dorne may suffer when it is revealed who Aegon really is (I assume Dorne is going to capitalize on Faegon).

It's true that Stannis may never bend. IDK if he still won't even if she has Drogon next to her but we'll see.

She does name the whole house but it doesn't mean that when it came down to it she would wipe them all out. I don't think she will kill Tyrion for example when he goes to her in the next book.

Dorne may suffer from Dany? I think they may have problems but it will be over the Quentyn thing. Aegon was related to them too so I don't think they would be fine with someone posing as Aegon since it's a disgrace to his memory. They may be convinced that he's real.

Euphail, on 01 May 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

But I don't understand the rational behind the North bending the knee if Dany tries to take them. I think it's pretty natural for the Northerners to want dragons in the fight again wights, but why take Dany and her rule when they can have a Stark eat her through her dragon (assumably.) "I know no King but the King in the North, whose name is Stark." Perhaps we should just rely on Brans altruism? What would happen though if Jon stood against her, what would he do then? or Sansa? would he protect his family over some dragon who wants to burn her kinsmen into submission?

Maybe individual Lords will feel different when a dragon is on their doorstep, but if Bran wargs her dragon even once Dany will have a hard choice. She can leave the north be or bend to what they want.

It's all speculation though, so every opinion is valid until we see it. She can be a clever girl when she wants to be, but she needs to do a better job defining her end game, and learning how to rule. She has no friends in the seven kingdoms, and if Bran wargs a dragon, she'll have even less.

The Northerners may accept Stannis though which could cause the conflict with Dany. Lyanna is a little girl who said that but her older sister's action goes against what she's saying.

A "Targaryen" will already have the crown most likely by the time she gets there so the North will have to have already made it's choice by this time on whether it wants to secede or not.

Bran may warg a dragon but we don't know if it's going to be because he's in opposition to her. He could go against one of the other riders.

[Kittyhat]

Euphail, on 30 April 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

I don't know how you can suggest that she is the best war leader to date.

I never have, really, but I have said she should be considered pretty high on the list and, "pound for pound" (taking into account her age, lack of experience and lack of formal training), may well be the best in the series.  "Pound for pound," mind you.  But even Robb at least had the benefit of extensive prior formal training and preparation at the hands of a highly experienced battle commander, whereas Dany was just basically making it all up out of thin air.

Quote

I like your ideas for her using her guile to conquer, that is a solid observation (and I hadn't used that word connected to her before) but at best she is still learning when and how it is best to use her guile. On rereads, every step forward she takes in conquering is 2 step backs in holding anything she had before.

Oh, she's definitely still learning.  No arguments there.

Quote

Though perhaps I should credit her in her very unique methods of conuqering when considering who would be the "best." Maybe a direct comparison isn't fair.

Also consider your Art of War.  Sun Tzu teaches us that the art of warfare is the art of deception, and the highest form of warfare is to win without fighting, or failing that, to arrange things so that we have already effectively won before the fight has really begun.  The true best war leader will rarely be the flashiest or the one who fights the most or the most exciting battles.  In fact, the true best will be kind of "boring" due to winning such apparently "easy" battles.  

Edited by Kittyhat, 01 May 2012 - 09:57 PM.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Apple Martini, on 29 April 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

Three Kingsguard members would not be there at the Tower of Joy for a bastard. Sorry to burst your bubble. Jon's legit.

In any case, it doesn't matter for either of them. The lords swore fealty to the Baratheons, they're the royal family now. Unless someone can get the lords to swear fealty to them.

Not to mention the Baratheons are the true rulers of Westeros now due to the right by conquest. If that wasn't legitimate, the Children of the Forest and the First Men would still be in power.

[Noimporta]

I like her well enough, she's a good kid, all things considered, though not queen material for at least 5 more years (assuming a realistic rate of growth).

That being said, her plot was, through Clash and Storm, the most boring for me, and it seems to be intrinsically tied to my least favorite elements in the story. I'm still all for her succeeding, as long as it doesn't preclude the success of my own favorites (which seems sadly unlikely).

[cooper56]

They need to do something interesting with her if shes on the throne. Ether die or something.