228 replies to this topic

[Hear Me Roar!]

Tyrionthebest, on 02 May 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

Sorry, Sansa sucks in the book as well so don't blame the tv show for shit in the book .

You are entitled to your opinion, but I disagree with it and think the show as a visual medium can't display the internal conflict and torment that is going on inside her mind. Not really the show's fault, I guess, but still a shortcoming.

Quote

He explained in a facebook post that this is not his views on real life victims only fictional characters like Sansa . But people try to make a big deal out of everything because he hurt your feelings on the subject, so whatever . Anyways it's more fun to watch his reviews than the ones of butthurt book fanboys .

That changes things, Larry, but not a lot. You're still an idiot for expecting a 13 year old girl to martyr herself for the realm by (somehow?) killing Joffrey. Still an absolutely ridiculous opinion. I don't care if you would find that entertaining; it doesn't make for good fiction because it isn't believable at all and the way Martin handles the story is about a thousand times better.

Sorry, Larry. Yes, I've caught onto the fact that you are Mr Otaku Assemble.

Edited by Hear Me Roar!, 02 May 2012 - 04:48 PM.

[Knez Snow]

In his review of episode 10 season 1, Larry mentioned how awesome Sansa was with her line directed at Joff: "Or maybe he'll give me yours." Talking about how Robb will give her Joff's head, ofc. So, in conclusion, Larry is not Sansa hater, he bases his opinion on her actions.

[Hear Me Roar!]

Sansa did speak up and save Ser Dontos, a pretty sly move.

[Independent George]

Let's hope they keep her line to Joffrey about how Robb always leads his men into battle.

[protar]

I only really started watching him in season 2, and I like his enthusiasm and his outsider perspective. His reviews have become part of my GOT enjoyment and he's just adorable when he does his OTAKU ASEEEEMBLEEEEEE! thing

On the Sansa hate: I don't like how vehement he was about it but I can see were he's coming from. I mean honestly who liked Sansa in GOT/COK? Maybe in late COK she matures a bit, but in GOT she's sooo naive and bitchy, and in COK she's just unbearably angsty. Justifiable so but it's still irksome. And in the show she's even worse because they've upped her bitchiness and she still has it in Season 2. And I'd certainly get angry if people started throwing insults at me for this dislike. About the Sansa matyr thing, I think everyone's over reacting and not thinking it through properly. As I understood it, Larry wasn't saying it was her duty or anything to sacrifice herself, he was just saying that it would have been interesting from a narrative perspective (Which is true.). And it's not really crazy out there, I mean Sansa contemplates it towards the end of Season 1. I disagree about his glorification of the victim thing, and about not respecting people who just endure. The average person in such a situation probably wouldn't be very proactive in such a situation, Larry included. But you can't deny that Sansa "just enduring" makes for a pretty boring story, especially without the inner monoloughe we're privy to in the books.

[Ran]

Well, yes, people can and do deny it.

Never assume that just because you don't understand something, that others don't understand it also.

[Arkash]

I agree with Ran, I am, myself, fascinated by Sansa's storyarc in Clash !

[Tyrionthebest]

Ran, on 04 May 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

Well, yes, people can and do deny it.

Never assume that just because you don't understand something, that others don't understand it also.

Huh, can i ask who are you talking about ?

[protar]

Tyrionthebest, on 04 May 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

Huh, can i ask who are you talking about ?

Me I assume.

@Ran: But I was refering to the show, where we get none of Sansa's inner monologue to make things mildly (for me at least.) interesting. And also as they're continually postponing the Dontos plotline, and have gotten rid of virtually all the Hound/Sansa interaction, Sansa's story is threadbare in this season. I mean sure the Sansa beating scene was good (in a dramatic way not a "I like watching 13 year old girls being abused" way.), but did anyone enjoy the dinner scene? Or the Shae/Sansa scene? I hope no one minds my saying that I am generally good at being objective and seeing were someone is coming from even if I don't agree with them. But I honestly don't see how Sansa's arc in S2 is in any way compelling. Care to elaborate?

[Mr Fixit]

I just gotta chime in on this whole Sansa hate thing.

I can't stand it one bit primarily because it smacks so hard of 21st century hero-wanna-be mentality. Here's a 13/14 year old noble girl raised in a feudal, extremely patriarchal society who in an instant lost everything and everyone she's ever cared for. She is lost and abused, physically and mentally, shown decapitated heads of her father and his entire household. She is in the deepest level of hell with noone to talk to or rely upon. Frankly, 90% of these same brave posters would cry themselves to death in her shoes. It is an unfathomable, heartbreaking situation for a, let's repeat it, 13 YEAR OLD GIRL!

What does Sansa do? She does what she can. One step at a time. She saves Dontos with carefully chosen words. Beaten and with clothes torn off, she leaves the throne room with her head high. She copes with the situation the only way she can - she endures, day at a time, waiting for the opportunity to present itself.

To those who can't understand that, I have only this to say: be thankful you're living in year 2012 in all the comfort modern civilisation provides.

[Aleenys]

Mr Fixit, on 04 May 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

I just gotta chime in on this whole Sansa hate thing.

I can't stand it one bit primarily because it smacks so hard of 21st century hero-wanna-be mentality. Here's a 13/14 year old noble girl raised in a feudal, extremely patriarchal society who in an instant lost everything and everyone she's ever cared for. She is lost and abused, physically and mentally, shown decapitated heads of her father and his entire household. She is in the deepest level of hell with noone to talk to or rely upon. Frankly, 90% of these same brave posters would cry themselves to death in her shoes. It is an unfathomable, heartbreaking situation for a, let's repeat it, 13 YEAR OLD GIRL!

What does Sansa do? She does what she can. One step at a time. She saves Dontos with carefully chosen words. Beaten and with clothes torn off, she leaves the throne room with her head high. She copes with the situation the only way she can - she endures, day at a time, waiting for the opportunity to present itself.

To those who can't understand that, I have only this to say: be thankful you're living in year 2012 in all the comfort modern civilisation provides.

Couldn't have said it any better. She's the strongest Stark in the family, and its sad that many people can't see it. Things she goes through and still going through without giving into despair and losing herself is fascinating to me. She's the most realistic character and the one I can relate to most as well. People comparing her to Arya are so wrong I don't even know where to begin. Thinking she should sacrifice herself killing Joffrey is like asking a cat to bark (not a great analogy maybe, but you get my meaning). She's not a person to hurt someone physically, let alone kill someone, even if they're her mortal enemy.

I find it ridiculous whenever I see that someone hates her (not just dislikes), and I don't get it. There are many characters that deserve hatred, Sansa is not one of them. It's like she suggested that they kill her father or continued to side with Joffrey and wanted to marry him happily after he chopped her father's head off. I'm sorry if you just want to find reasons to hate her, and completely disregard or pretend not to see things that make her likable, it means you're missing on a great story. But to each to his own, as they say.

[Arkash]

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She's the strongest Stark in the family

They are all strong in their way, but I agree, Sansa is just damn impressive!

[Francis Buck]

I'm going to post something I just posted in another thread, because I think it's directly related to the discussion here:

"...just wanted to say that I think, from a characterization standpoint, GRRM is playing a very long game with Sansa, more-so than with any of the Stark children. In other words, I think her character's trajectory, and where it's leading, is harder to predict than the others. I believe this is why many readers dislike her story, or see it as pointless, because it's kind of hard to imagine where it's supposed to be headed until later in the series (really not until AFfC). But I think the payoff from all of this is that, by the end, she's going to be just as (if not more) important than her siblings when it comes to the Stark's resurgence -- which I think is inevitable, and to a point is what the Stark family's whole arc is about. She's the only Stark that's really going to be playing the game of thrones, which to me is very important, despite many who think it will be meaningless in the ultimate struggle at the end (realistically, the Stark's destruction is partially due to their lack of power in the political spectrum). And, as others have said, she'll be unique in this because she's able to play the game effectively without losing some sense of honor or loyalty. Sansa's being trained in her own specific "style" of combat: Arya's being trained as an assassin, Bran's being trained as a magician, Jon's being trained as a commander, and Sansa's being trained as a politican. In the end I think they're all going to be working towards the same cause (whether they realize it or not), which is the revival of the Starks. This is also why I think that the younger, more beautiful queen that is prophesied to overthrow Cersei won't be Daenerys or anyone else, but Sansa."

Edited by Francis Buck, 04 May 2012 - 08:58 PM.

[Raksha the Demon]

protar, on 04 May 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

Me I assume.

@Ran: But I was refering to the show, where we get none of Sansa's inner monologue to make things mildly (for me at least.) interesting. And also as they're continually postponing the Dontos plotline, and have gotten rid of virtually all the Hound/Sansa interaction, Sansa's story is threadbare in this season. I mean sure the Sansa beating scene was good (in a dramatic way not a "I like watching 13 year old girls being abused" way.), but did anyone enjoy the dinner scene? Or the Shae/Sansa scene? I hope no one minds my saying that I am generally good at being objective and seeing were someone is coming from even if I don't agree with them. But I honestly don't see how Sansa's arc in S2 is in any way compelling. Care to elaborate?

I actually did enjoy Sansa's dinner scene with Cersei, Tommen and Myrcella - it showed that Sansa cannot even get through a dinner with her future mother-in-law and the two kids without being reminded that their family plans to kill her brother, not to mention that Sansa finds it difficult to voice enthusiasm for her supposed eventual wedding to Joffrey (and how cruel Cersei is to insist that she does).  The scene also showed that Tommen is a nice kid who's not excited about the idea of Robb Stark being killed, and that Myrcella seems more interested in the dresses that she and Sansa will wear for Sansa and Joffrey's wedding (which is not a bad thing, just that she's being a nice, pleasant kid in a different way than Tommen, who seems more sensitive).  It was a scene that presented some fine character interaction, good dialogue that brought out all this information with naturally flowing dialogue.  It also made more sense as a scene than the confrontation between the emotionally stressed and exhausted Sansa and fish-out-of-water Shae.

[protar]

Raksha the Demon, on 04 May 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

I actually did enjoy Sansa's dinner scene with Cersei, Tommen and Myrcella - it showed that Sansa cannot even get through a dinner with her future mother-in-law and the two kids without being reminded that their family plans to kill her brother, not to mention that Sansa finds it difficult to voice enthusiasm for her supposed eventual wedding to Joffrey (and how cruel Cersei is to insist that she does).  The scene also showed that Tommen is a nice kid who's not excited about the idea of Robb Stark being killed, and that Myrcella seems more interested in the dresses that she and Sansa will wear for Sansa and Joffrey's wedding (which is not a bad thing, just that she's being a nice, pleasant kid in a different way than Tommen, who seems more sensitive).  It was a scene that presented some fine character interaction, good dialogue that brought out all this information with naturally flowing dialogue.  It also made more sense as a scene than the confrontation between the emotionally stressed and exhausted Sansa and fish-out-of-water Shae.

Eh, to me the acting just felt really wooden. I can understand why Sansa might be sounding a little robotic due to her emotional stress, but the Lannister kids just came off as really cold and uncaring. It didn't work for me, and I can see why many show-only fans dislike Sansa. Her arc just isn't as actioned packed and exciting and it's like Francis Buck said: Sansa's development in ASOIAF has been a slow build up, but what works in a book series (because I would just like to clarify that I do in fact like Sansa, just not at this point in the story.) doesn't neccesarily translate well onto the screen.

[Tyrionthebest]

protar, on 05 May 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:

Eh, to me the acting just felt really wooden. I can understand why Sansa might be sounding a little robotic due to her emotional stress, but the Lannister kids just came off as really cold and uncaring. It didn't work for me, and I can see why many show-only fans dislike Sansa. Her arc just isn't as actioned packed and exciting and it's like Francis Buck said: Sansa's development in ASOIAF has been a slow build up, but what works in a book series (because I would just like to clarify that I do in fact like Sansa, just not at this point in the story.) doesn't neccesarily translate well onto the screen.

What, I heard nothing but good things from book readers and non book readers as well about that scene . Just because you don't like something it doesn't mean everyone shares the same opinion as you do .

[protar]

Tyrionthebest, on 05 May 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

What, I heard nothing but good things from book readers and non book readers as well about that scene . Just because you don't like something it doesn't mean everyone shares the same opinion as you do .

Did I say that. Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I was genuinely curious as to what about the scene people liked is all.

[Keep Shelly in Athens]

Knez Snow, on 02 May 2012 - 03:10 AM, said:

I like his reviews, and understand his position on Sansa. I

Spoiler

also did not liked Sansa during aGoT and aCoK.

And i understand the thing about glorifying victims- this is a TV show and that is not entertaining, and there is nothing glorious about being a victim. Being victim is bad thing.

Being a victim is a bad thing because bad things happen to them, not because they're bad people. Also I don't know if anyone "glorifies" Sansa as a victim. They might glorify her as a survivor. Or they might observe how she's the only Stark who is getting a cruel lesson in politics. So people have an option on how to perceive her: either a character who suffers and stays static, or a character who suffers and becomes stronger for it. And "stronger" doesn't always mean picking up a sword or poisoning your attacker as Larry seems to think.

[gougef]

I just hope he's still around for the RW given his response to Ned's demise.

[Arkash]

I agree, reading the Unsullied and watching Larry for the RW and being with my non-book walkers friends are among the things I expect most of my life... ^^