128 replies to this topic

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Sciborg,

Spoiler

He kills himself because he recognizes he's incapable of really changing.  Is that "getting off with 'I'm sorry'"?

[big spoilers]

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison, 29 April 2012 - 10:42 AM.

[Seli]

sciborg2, on 29 April 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

Kalbear raises issues I had with the work. The characterizations are a bit dodgy. Morpheus gets off the hook with a "I'm Soreeeee" a lot of the time.

That said, watching the plot coalesce, Gaiman's prose, and the efforts of the supporting cast makes the series worth a read.

Where did he ever get away with saying I am sorry?

And you expect something that is more a force of nature than a human we can understand to have an easy time getting this human concept?

[Sci-2]

Whoah guys, we should make separate spoiler thread.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

sciborg2, on 29 April 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

Kalbear raises issues I had with the work. The characterizations are a bit dodgy. Morpheus gets off the hook with a "I'm Soreeeee" a lot of the time.

That said, watching the plot coalesce, Gaiman's prose, and the efforts of the supporting cast makes the series worth a read.

But he doesn't get let "off the hook".

Spoiler

He screws over the woman he loves and she can't forgive him. The only member of his "family" who genuinely likes him let's him know that she thinks he's a bastard. His entire realm is destroyed by the Erinyes and they eventually kill him. All of his bastard like behavior comes back to haunt him.

[Sci-2]

I'm talking more about the forgiveness he's given by characters that seems unreal and done to wrap up the plot arcs.

Like I said, in terms of craft it is one of the best things to come out of DC and it essentially, alongside Watchmen, raised the expectation of comics as art form...at least for the American audience.

But Gaiman's young writer desire for conclusive arcs even at the emotional level works against it at times.

[peterbound]

sciborg2, on 29 April 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

at least for the American audience.

Sci.. really?  Is there any other type of audience that matters?

[Sci-2]

heh, i just remember when i asked for the greatest living comic writers and got schooled how much comics work has been produced outside of the US.

so i figured i'd cover my ass with that caveat.

[kalbear]

As stated:

Spoiler

screwing over the woman he loves is a bit of an understatement; he sentences her to hell for 10000 years, and even then she still loves him. That's the part that I hate - that while I think Morpheus is written well and that when gods and  men interact it is the men that suffer, Gaiman doesn't do a very good job writing actual people. They're all magic pixie fairies who are Extra Special and Slightly Weird (but only in a good way) or Really Really Evil. You see this in Coraline as well. And their reactions are just so very horrible and wrong. No, sorry, Morpheus doesn't still get loved by the woman he damned for 10000 years just because he decides that it really wasn't that bad. No, sorry, sacrificing a woman is not a great way to show you're awesome, and the woman shouldn't understand. Morpheus eventually pays for his horrible crimes, but it's not at the hands of the humans - it's at the hands of even worse gods. Meh.

This is honestly one of the things that makes American Gods good when it is good - he writes these alien godlings well. But he doesn't write humans well, and I hated so very much the humans in Sandman.

Edited by Kalbear, 29 April 2012 - 01:06 PM.

[Errant Bard]

Kalbear, on 29 April 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

As stated:

Spoiler

screwing over the woman he loves is a bit of an understatement; he sentences her to hell for 10000 years, and even then she still loves him. That's the part that I hate - that while I think Morpheus is written well and that when gods and  men interact it is the men that suffer, Gaiman doesn't do a very good job writing actual people. They're all magic pixie fairies who are Extra Special and Slightly Weird (but only in a good way) or Really Really Evil. You see this in Coraline as well. And their reactions are just so very horrible and wrong. No, sorry, Morpheus doesn't still get loved by the woman he damned for 10000 years just because he decides that it really wasn't that bad. No, sorry, sacrificing a woman is not a great way to show you're awesome, and the woman shouldn't understand. Morpheus eventually pays for his horrible crimes, but it's not at the hands of the humans - it's at the hands of even worse gods. Meh.

This is honestly one of the things that makes American Gods good when it is good - he writes these alien godlings well. But he doesn't write humans well, and I hated so very much the humans in Sandman.

I was never very enthralled by sandman, maybe I set my expectations too high, hearing how it's such genius. Don't kill me for this but I thought at the time that it didn't measure up to half the comics I had read (from Belgium, Japan, US, France, Korea, whatever), but this one thing made sense for me:

Spoiler

Morpheus is dream personified, he's not really a person as we understand the concept. You don't stop loving such things. If sleeps flees me, I'll love it even more when it comes back. If life stinks, it's not a reason to hate life itself, and so on...
It's not awesome, it's just not on the level of individual humans.

The endless just serve, in the end, to describe society as a whole, I believe that, they are bigger than individuals.

[kalbear]

Spoiler

Quote

Morpheus is dream personified, he's not really a person as we understand the concept. You don't stop loving such things. If sleeps flees me, I'll love it even more when it comes back. If life stinks, it's not a reason to hate life itself, and so on...
It's not awesome, it's just not on the level of individual humans.

I disagree. Plenty of people I've known hate their dreams and are happy when they don't have them. Plenty of people I know hate life and wish it was done. When it is personified, that would only be magnified; that's part of the reason we personified our gods, after all - so we could have something concrete to blame.

I agree that they are bigger than humans. What I don't agree with is the human's reactions. They are the things that fall flat to me.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I think he does suffer at the hands of Nada (as he rightfully should)...

Spoiler

I think Morpheus is left feeling like an even greater shit after she forgives him. He essentially commits suicide when The Furies come a calling, at least in part because he doesn't feel worthy of her forgiveness.

[kalbear]

Uh.

Spoiler

So he suffers because she forgives him? Oh boo hoo, no one really understands you, morpheus. Bah. The point I object to is the forgiving part. Him suffering because of it is both trite and stupid, but the part that bothers most is how so many humans are all 'oh, sorry that you got in a stupid snit and imprisoned me in hell for 10,000 years...it's okay and we're BFF now'. Fuck that noise. That's what Gaiman does in all his books, and it's always shitty.

Furthermore, he doesn't suffer at Nada's hands; he chooses to suffer after she actually forgives him, and chooses to suffer at his own hands. And he only does it later, after other issues have happened. It's just him hanging out for a while before that. Heck, during the quest to find her he kinda forgets all of that and becomes king of Hell and has crazy, sexy adventures instead of, ya know, finding her. But yes, I absolutely object to the resolution that Morpheus takes his own life after ruining someone else's because she forgives him. Her 'act' is to forgive him. The punishment doesn't come from her in any meaningful way, and he's still let off the hook.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Spoiler

You're right in that it's not a boo-hoo, poor Morpheus moment, but I don't think that Gaiman meant it to be such. I think Morpheus is looking for some sort of redemption here. The one person whose opinion matters to him (Death) makes him realize he fucked up. He's trying to fix the unfixable. Once he realizes that he can't fix it, he more or less lays down like a dog. He punishes himself, as he's really the only thing that can mete out that punishment.

[Calibandar]

What's struck me most about Neil Gaiman in recent years is his lack of output in books.

I'm not sure what he, if anythingm he is working on, presumably has been working on for some time. I saw some listing for a book he is supposed to do on China, where he's been travelling the last few years, and I heard that there may be sequels to AG for HBO, but nothing solid.

His output has been limited to a short story here and there since Graveyard Book back in 2009.

[Mr. E]

Calibandar, on 01 May 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

What's struck me most about Neil Gaiman in recent years is his lack of output in books.

I'm not sure what he, if anythingm he is working on, presumably has been working on for some time. I saw some listing for a book he is supposed to do on China, where he's been travelling the last few years, and I heard that there may be sequels to AG for HBO, but nothing solid.

His output has been limited to a short story here and there since Graveyard Book back in 2009.

Apparently he has been busy doing other things (???) but has really gotten back down to writing the last couple of months--he talks about it a good deal in his blog.

Also, I know for a fact he interviewed Stephen King (my favorite writer) a few weeks ago, and his full interview with the King is on his blog as well.

[Sci-2]

He got married right? To the lead singer of Dresden Dolls?

[alguien]

Yeah, he married Amanda Palmer over a year ago, I think.  I know he's been working on writing episodes of American Gods for HBO and at least one book, which is why he hasn't been blogging as much.  He also just recently did an interview with Stephen King.

Spoiler

I find it weird that people are more disturbed by Nada's condemnation to hell than by a convention of serial killers. Or the 24 hours in the diner bit.  Those are fucking disturbing. But in a good way. I like how Gaiman does human characters.  People are weird. Also keep in mind, he was doing this series before Goth and Emo were even like recognized social phenomena.

[Sci-2]

@alguien - it's not about being disturbed, it's about critiquing characterization.

[alguien]

Fair enough. I guess I find some of critiques misguided, though interesting.

[Mr. E]

alguien, on 02 May 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Fair enough. I guess I find some of critiques misguided, though interesting.

I will say this: 24 Hours was one of the scariest things I've ever read.