149 replies to this topic

[FuzzyJAM]

It seems to me like not enough people recognise Mirri as the boss she actually is.  This topic is meant to rectify that.

Many people seem to consider Mirri a villain.  Some think she's a straight up evil witch.  This is simply wrong.  Yes, she practises magic that apparently ends the lives of multiple people and aborts a child during labour.  That seems pretty terrible, right?  But let's consider her motives:

Dany kissed her sun-and-stars gently on the brow, and stood to face Mirri Maz Duur. "Your spells are costly, maegi."
"He lives," said Mirri Maz Duur. "You asked for life. You paid for life."
"This is not life, for one who was as Drogo was. His life was laughter, and meat roasting over a firepit, and a horse between his legs. His life was an arakh in his hand and his bells ringing in his hair as he rode to meet an enemy. His life was his bloodriders, and me, and the son I was to give him."
Mirri Maz Duur made no reply.
"When will he be as he was?" Dany demanded.
"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."
Dany gestured at Ser Jorah and the others. "Leave us. I would speak with this maegi alone." Mormont and the Dothraki withdrew. "You knew," Dany said when they were gone. She ached, inside and out, but her fury gave her strength. "You knew what I was buying, and you knew the price, and yet you let me pay it."
"It was wrong of them to burn my temple," the heavy, flat-nosed woman said placidly. "That angered the Great Shepherd."
"This was no god's work," Dany said coldly. If I look back I am lost. "You cheated me. You murdered my child within me."
"The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust."
"I spoke for you," she said, anguished. "I saved you."
"Saved me?" The Lhazareen woman spat. "Three riders had taken me, not as a man takes a woman but from behind, as a dog takes a bitch. The fourth was in me when you rode past. How then did you save me? I saw my god's house burn, where I had healed good men beyond counting. My home they burned as well, and in the street I saw piles of heads. I saw the head of a baker who made my bread. I saw the head of a boy I had saved from deadeye fever, only three moons past. I heard children crying as the riders drove them off with their whips. Tell me again what you saved."
"Your life."
Mirri Maz Duur laughed cruelly. "Look to your khal and see what life is worth, when all the rest is gone."

Pretty solid reasons to do it if you ask me.

Now let's consider who her magic apparently killed: a bunch of riders who had many murders and aggressive wars and rapes to their names.  Not a one of them was not part of the murdering of Mirri's people, enslavement of them, or complicit in Mirri being raped multiple times.  Justice was exacted pretty clearly.

Rhaego is a different case, and the only thing I can hold against her.  However, we don't really know how the magic worked - from what we're told, Rhaego never truly lived anyway, so how can she have done anything wrong to him?  Certainly, the child's parents deserved the pain of his death, and as Mirri says - Rhaego will never conquer and rape and murder all the people that his parents want him to, because he shall never be.  Pretty good stuff, right?

And how about the supposed "betrayal" of Dany, which is such a widespread belief as to be in the wikia here?

"No," she pleaded.  "Save him, and I will free you, I swear it.  You must know a way. . .some magic, some. . ."
Mirri Maz Duur sat back on her heels and studied Daenerys through eyes as black as night.  "There is a spell."  Her voice was quiet, scarcely more than a whisper.  "But it is hard, lady, and dark.  Some would say that death is cleaner.  I learned the way in Asshai, and paid dear for the lesson.  My teacher was a bloodmage from the Shadow Lands.
Dany went cold all over.  "Then you truly are a maegi...
"Am I?"  Mirri Maz Duur smiled.  "Only a maegi can save your rider now, Silver Lady."
"Is there no other way?"
"No other."
Khal Drogo gave a shuddering gasp.
"Do it," Dany blurted.  She must not be afraid; she was the blood of the dragon.  "Save him."
"There is a price," the godswife warned her.
"You'll have gold, horses, whatever you like."
"It is not a matter of gold or horses.  Only death may pay for life."
"Death?"  Dany wrapped her arms around herself protectively, rocked back and forth on her heels.  "My death?"  She told herself she would die for him, if she must.  She was the blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid.  Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved.
"No," Mirri Maz Duur promised.  "Not your death, Khaleesi."
The maegi nodded solemnly.  "As you speak, so it shall be done.  Call your servants."

Well? How much warning do you need?  It's hard and dark to the extent that some say death is better and the price of life is death.  All Mirri says is that the death is not to be Dany's, at which point Dany is A-OK with it.  Where's the trickery?  Where's the betrayal?  

Ah, but what of the spell effects?  They clearly was not as promised. . .!  Except, funnily enough, they were.  Mirri saves Drogo much like Dany saves her, as Mirri so deftly expresses.  Dany is proud when she saves Mirri, how can Mirri be expected to do more for Dany? And hey, let's not forget that Dany was part of the reason Mirri needed saving, while Mirri had done her best to prevent her having to save Drogo.



So what's an appropriate and fair reading of Mirri Maz Duur?


Well, she's a good woman who is a healer to her people.  An evil conquering army comes and, with no provocation, murders her people, desecrate the temple of the god she worships and gang rape her.  The female queen of this people comes and stops her fourth rape, and claims Mirri as her slave.  We see how incredibly hypocritical this is - this queen is fine with encouraging her husband to this conquer and murder, and allows hundreds, perhaps thousands, of others to be raped, all she's worried about is her sensibilities being offended by actually seeing it.  Regardless, our brave hero still tries to heal the man responsible for this army that has taken everything from her - what an amazing person to show such forgiveness!  But, of course, this stupid brute doesn't listen and manages to worsen his condition to the extent that he nearly dies.  Again, she is called upon to save him, only this time you simply can't - he is all but dead.  She offers to ease his pain.  But the evil queen is so insistent that, against her better judgement, and after plenty of warnings, she performs a magic ritual.  She completes it, and in doing so gets some form of justice for her people.



See how fantastic she is?  Drogo and Dany and the rest of the Dothraki are the villains here.  Mirri is one of the most morally upstanding people in the series.  When she finally dies ("You will not hear me scream"), it's a tragic end for a great hero - she dies bravely, having done her best to help all those she could, even those who did her great wrong, and also attempted to stop an evil warlord in his planned conquests.

[The King in the South]

A child should always be innocent of his/her parents crimes. If MMD wanted to prevent the kid from becoming the SWMTW she could have interposed herself in his/her raising and tried to teach him better. Besides for all she knew, he/she might have very well turned into the Gandhi of the Dothraki and brought peace to Essos.

Edited by The King in the South, 28 April 2012 - 12:55 AM.

[FuzzyJAM]

The King in the South, on 28 April 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

A child should always be innocent of his/her parents crimes. If MMD wanted to prevent the kid from becoming the SWMTW she could have interposed herself in his/her raising and tried to teach him better. And for all she knew, he/she might have very well turned into the Gandhi of the Dothraki and brought peace to Essos.

You're ignoring the fact that the child is not, in fact, a child.  It's a strange monster thing.  

Mirri says it had never lived, and I see no reason to think that's wrong.  How can you harm something that does not live?

[Winter's Knight]

Erm, she can only have "killed" Drogo and Rhaego-where did you get the "a bunch of riders"?

[Red Raven]

Hear hear!  I always thought that MMD got a raw deal.

She put a healing patch on Drogo and told him not to drink or to take it off.  So what does he do?  He drinks and takes it off.

She tells Dany that blood magic is a bad idea.  Dany doesn't listen.

She tells Dany a life must pay for a life and Dany thinks her warrior king can be revived with the life of a horse.

DDM warned them.  It's not her fault Dany and Drogo didn't listen.

[FuzzyJAM]

Winter, on 28 April 2012 - 12:56 AM, said:

Erm, she can only have "killed" Drogo and Rhaego-where did you get the "a bunch of riders"?

It is implied that the blood magic causes, and somehow uses, the fight that happens outside the tent that kills Quaro, Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo.

[The King in the South]

FuzzyJAM, on 28 April 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

You're ignoring the fact that the child is not, in fact, a child.  It's a strange monster thing.  

Mirri says it had never lived, and I see no reason to think that's wrong.  How can you harm something that does not live?

Considering we never actually saw the baby, that's entirely debatable. And for all we know, he might have turned out the way because of MMD's potions.
It never lived because she destroyed any chance it had at living. I don't see how you can possibly think it's alright for someone to abort it's child against its mother's will, regardless of your position on abortion in general.

[Winter's Knight]

I thought the child died because Jorah carried Dany into the tent where MMD was working her magic even though they were told to not enter because "the dead would dance" or some such.

[Jon's No]

Burn her she is a witch.

Nah in all seriousness I never liked Mirri but I don't think she was all that bad.

[FuzzyJAM]

The King in the South, on 28 April 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

Considering we never actually saw the baby, that's entirely debatable. And for all we know, he might have turned out the way because of MMD's potions.
It never lived because she destroyed any chance it had at living. I don't see how you can possibly think it's alright for someone to abort it's child against its mother's will, regardless of your position on abortion in general.

I don't see how you can hold it against a slave to harm their master at their request having been gang raped, had their temple desecrated and their people murdered because her master wants to conquer another land.  Issues with harming Rhaego must come from the harm it does to Rhaego himself.  

I can see the problems, as I said, but it really depends on the specifics of blood magic.  It would appear that Rhaego simply never lived, and it is very possible that his death was not Mirri's fault in any case - as Winter's Knight says, Mirri warned Dany not to enter the tent.

Edited by FuzzyJAM, 28 April 2012 - 01:13 AM.

[FuzzyJAM]

[Double post]

Edited by FuzzyJAM, 28 April 2012 - 01:13 AM.

[The King in the South]

FuzzyJAM, on 28 April 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

I don't see how you can hold it against a slave to harm their master at their request having been gang raped, had their temple desecrated and their people murdered because she wants to conquer another land.  Issues with harming Rhaego must come from the harm it does to Rhaego himself.  

I can see the problems, as I said, but it really depends on the specifics of blood magic.  It would appear that Rhaego simply never lived, and it is very possible that his death was not Mirri's fault in any case - as Winter's Knight says, Mirri warned Dany not to enter the tent.

I have no problems with her killing Drogo. I think he was an awful person and completely understand why she did it.
I guess I'll have to re-read the section, I know Jorah carried Dany in there, but I could have sworn that in the suceeding conversation MMD basically stated that she had killed Rhaego, or at the very least was happy he was dead.

[FuzzyJAM]

The King in the South, on 28 April 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

I have no problems with her killing Drogo. I think he was an awful person and completely understand why she did it.
I guess I'll have to re-read the section, I know Jorah carried Dany in there, but I could have sworn that in the suceeding conversation MMD basically stated that she had killed Rhaego, or at the very least was happy he was dead.

I wasn't talking about Drogo, I was talking about Dany.  The "death" of Rhaego harms Dany, and I'm saying that's absolutely fine because Mirri has every right to harm her, and was even merciful enough to try and avoid it.

[butterbumps!]

Fuzzy-  I agree with your position, but I would go so far as to say that she is even less culpable in what happens to Dany than you imply.   I was surprised by the show's portrayal, and subsequent(?) villainous interpretations on these boards, so I reread her scenes a number of times to see if I was mistaken, but after checking up a number of times, I think the events surround MMD are a lot more neutral than most imply.  Here's something I posted elsewhere on the matter:

MMD is brought up frequently as a justified act of killing on both sides- MMD ending Dothraki domination and Dany’s justice (more like vengeance in my opinion, but so it goes). In the text of the book, versus the TV show, it is evident that MMD did not, in fact, try to kill Drogo, and I suspect that what happened to Rhaego was also something of an accident out of MMD’s control (i.e. Dany was told no one should enter, but due to necessity Jorah brought her into the tent. I suspect Rhaego’s dying was caused by the nature of the magic rather than anyone’s intentional act).

The text is quite explicit about the fact that MMD gave Drogo specific instructions regarding caring for his wound, including, but not limited to, using the burning (ostensibly antiseptic) poultice and avoiding intoxicating beverages. Instead, Drogo got continuously drunk and used only a soothing salve on the wound, both of which sped up the infection.

I think MMD let herself be blamed for what happened because, by that point, what did she have to live for anymore (her temple destroyed, rapes, beatings, her people enslaved). She accepted the blame, perhaps, because it was the last chance to exercise a form of agency when she knew that no matter what, she was going to die. Why not go out on her own terms, so to speak.

Edited by butterbumps!, 28 April 2012 - 08:00 AM.

[chris999]

I think that MMD may have had a much larger role in this story than anyone believes.

I think that she may have known the Dany was AA, and that in order for her to forge her lightbringer (the dragons), that Dany would have to sacrifice her husband.

It is mentioned that she and Arch Maester Marwyn studied together, and Marwyn may know more about magic that any person alive in westeros. They could have been using dragonglass candles to communicate with each other, and Marwyn may have seen that Dany fit most of the criteria for the prophecy, and had MMD sacrifice herself for the greater good. (Or, maybe MMD didnt think that Dany would kill her)

Edited by chris999, 28 April 2012 - 08:10 AM.

[ghost the direwolf]

butterbumps!, on 28 April 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Fuzzy-  I agree with your position, but I would go so far as to say that she is even less culpable in what happens to Dany than you imply.   I was surprised by the show's portrayal, and subsequent(?) villainous interpretations on these boards, so I reread her scenes a number of times to see if I was mistaken, but after checking up a number of times, I think the events surround MMD are a lot more neutral than most imply.  Here's something I posted elsewhere on the matter:

MMD is brought up frequently as a justified act of killing on both sides- MMD ending Dothraki domination and Dany’s justice (more like vengeance in my opinion, but so it goes). In the text of the book, versus the TV show, it is evident that MMD did not, in fact, try to kill Drogo, and I suspect that what happened to Rhaego was also something of an accident out of MMD’s control (i.e. Dany was told no one should enter, but due to necessity Jorah brought her into the tent. I suspect Rhaego’s dying was caused by the nature of the magic rather than anyone’s intentional act).

The text is quite explicit about the fact that MMD gave Drogo specific instructions regarding caring for his wound, including, but not limited to, using the burning (ostensibly antiseptic) poultice and avoiding intoxicating beverages. Instead, Drogo got continuously drunk and used only a soothing salve on the wound, both of which sped up the infection.

I think MMD let herself be blamed for what happened because, by that point, what did she have to live for anymore (her temple destroyed, rapes, beatings, her people enslaved). She accepted the blame, perhaps, because it was the last chance to exercise a form of agency when she knew that no matter what, she was going to die. Why not go out on her own terms, so to speak.

[Castel]

The King in the South, on 28 April 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

A child should always be innocent of his/her parents crimes. If MMD wanted to prevent the kid from becoming the SWMTW she could have interposed herself in his/her raising and tried to teach him better. Besides for all she knew, he/she might have very well turned into the Gandhi of the Dothraki and brought peace to Essos.

I think you underestimate the weight society can put on a person, especially fathers and mothers. And I think you also overestimate the power a simple slave (especially a maegi) can have over the son of a Khal. I mean, didn't people threaten to cut her tongue out just for talking?

The King in the South, on 28 April 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

I don't see how you can possibly think it's alright for someone to abort it's child against its mother's will, regardless of your position on abortion in general.

Depending on how true she thought the prophecy would be it was the most utilitarian course of action. One child to stop all the suffering it would cause? It's a really tough thing and wrong in the traditional sense but yeah, I can see why she would act that way. And in reality unless I'm mistaken Rhaego was never born and hopefully most of the harm was done on Dany.

Quote

The text is quite explicit about the fact that MMD gave Drogo specific instructions regarding caring for his wound, including, but not limited to, using the burning (ostensibly antiseptic) poultice and avoiding intoxicating beverages. Instead, Drogo got continuously drunk and used only a soothing salve on the wound, both of which sped up the infection.

I think MMD let herself be blamed for what happened because, by that point, what did she have to live for anymore (her temple destroyed, rapes, beatings, her people enslaved). She accepted the blame, perhaps, because it was the last chance to exercise a form of agency when she knew that no matter what, she was going to die. Why not go out on her own terms, so to speak.

Yes, it's still an open question whether MMD actually poisoned Drogo or took advantage of his stupidity to get rid of his son as well or Jorah also screwed that up. I personally think that Drogo screwed up and she used it as a chance to get a twofer, getting both him and his son. But I do like the alternate interpretation.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I consider her one of the heroes of the story and I approve of her killing Rhaego and Drogo.

Hell, even if she killed Daenerys that would be not such a horrible thing considering what Daenerys had become, a warlord who was to use the Dothraki to conquer Westeros, who wanted the Dothraki to get ships which inevitably comes from conquests and so on. Daenerys is complicit to what happened to MMD and her people. Daenerys' personality is of a person who in the future could butcher innocents for their ambition or for other reasons since she was willing to do that at that point. However since Danny had lost her husband leader of the Khalasar and son it did not seem possible I guess to a neutral observer or to MMD that she would once again become such a powerful force.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 28 April 2012 - 11:12 AM.

[Lykos]

I agree that Mirri Maz Duur is the boss.  Even more than I´ve seen mentioned in this thread.  I don´t believe that she was a priestess of the Great Shepherd but rather of the Lord of Light.  "It burned, yes.  There is great healing magic in fire,.."
I´ve posted this already in several threads and haven´t had any contradictions, -   Yet.  Still a bit scared to put in a Mirri Maz Duur appreciation thread.

Lykos, on 24 April 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

@Fragile Bird
Only later Mirri Maz Duur tells Dany that she must have known that the horse wasn´t the prize.  That it always was the baby, and Dany just assumed what she wished the prize to be.  I think Mirri Maz Duur manipulated Dany. Here´s what I think:

MMD was the only person with magical knowledge present. She has been to Asshai. The other person who learned magic in Asshai, Melisandre, tries to raise dragons. MMD claims to be a priestess of the Great Shepaherd. This is highly unbelieveable, since the Great Shepherd is the (main/only ?) god of the Lazareen, a peaceful people and not very much into revenge.

I think MMD found out that all the right ingredients to hatch dragons where to be found at Drogo´s Khalasar, by flame or prearrangement. Dragon eggs, (Pregnant?)Targaryen, right time (red comet?), right place(volcanic activity?).

Drogo was wounded, I think it possible that MMD had a hand in that, too. MMD offered her help, trying to gain Dany´s trust she mentions that she learned from a Maester and Jorah Mormont confirms her story, so Dany lets MMD help even though the Dothraki hate Maegies. We later learn that the Maester, Marwyn is very interested in magic and most likely learned from MMD and not vice versa. MMD´s treatment is rejected by Drogo, which She was well aware of, I think. But she didn´t press Dany very urgently to follow her instructions, even considering that she was threatened with death by Drogo´s Blood Riders.

So Drogo fell (at the right place) and MMD told Dany there was nothing she could do. She even accused and insulted Dany for not following the instructions, so that Dany became desperate and at the right moment MMD let slip the possibility of using magic.
It´s the dance that Melisandre danced with Stannis.
Then she gives some essential explanations on blood magic that even Dany could follow. Next she tells Dany of the price, a life, to Dany´s relief it´s "just" Drogo´s horse.
A horse is the most important being to the Dothraki, I would guess to most of them even more important than their wifes. Furthermore a horse causes a lot of unrest and blood. And promptly fighting breaks out and causes Dany to deliver early, and Jorah to disrupt the "magical" ceremony.
Then Dany is told that she gave birth to a monster and is taunted by MMD until her dragon wakes and she decides to burn MMD along with Drogo and placing the dragon eggs in the pyre with the mad desperate faith of her inner dragon, that this is the right thing to do.

I´ve mentioned before, that I think volcanic activity might be needed to hatch dragons. And Dany bathed Drogo with tepid water that smelled of sulfur before she smothered him. I think it´s possible that Dany´s losses helped to build her desperate faith, that I think is needed for the magic. But I think magic will always claim it´s price afterwards and you cannot be shure what this price will be.

I´ve read another nice theory that sugests, that Dany´s fetus(ses) was swapped with the contents of the dragon eggs. MMD described the stillborn Rhaego as dead for years. This seems to go back to FanTasy´s idea.

[Apple Martini]

I agree with Butterbumps' take on it. I think a lot of people are using the show as a metric and that's not really what happens in the book. Far as I'm concerned, Drogo has no one to blame but himself for not using the poultice (it burned because it was working), Dany knew blood magic was a bad idea but did it anyway, and Jorah took Dany into the tent when Mirri said, "Don't come in the tent." Meanwhile, deliberately or not, she helped rid the world of one pillaging warlord and one future pillaging warlord.

But she's the one who was burned alive. Oh, Dany.