62 replies to this topic

[bloodymime]

I know the common opinion is that Bolton didn't turn traitor until later after Robb marries Jeyne but I think the man began betraying the North as soon as he was given command. His actions at the Green Fork just don't make sense to me otherwise, some quotes from the books seem to contradict the very reasons Robb wanted him leading the infantry.

"Galbart Glover says Lord Tywin is too smart for that, and Roose Bolton agrees." Just to establish Bolton's judgement of Lannister.

"and if we attack him … by all reports, he has more men than I do, and a lot more armored horse. The Greatjon says that won’t matter if we catch him with his breeches down, but it seems to me that a man who has fought as many battles as Tywin Lannister won’t be so easily surprised.” They don't think they're able to defeat the Lannister army even with their forces combined and the Greatjon's plan sounds exactly the same as what Bolton ended up doing, the very thing Robb wanted to avoid  which is the reason for giving the command to Roose in the first place.

"Robb had commanded him to continue the march south, to confront the huge Lannister army coming north under Lord Tywin." Depends on how you intrepret it but confront does not necessarily mean attack. As seen Roose is leading an army of infantry against an army larger and that had more heavy cavalry even before they split their forces. A more cautious and cunning man would want to get close enough to let Lannister know he's there yet still take as much advantage as he could regarding the makeup of the two armies. Find land that suits his strength and spend his time reinforcing his position instead of marching straight into Lannister's wheelhouse. But then you come to Bolton's battleplan.

"The northerners would be exhausted after their long sleepless march. Tyrion wondered what the boy had been thinking. Did he think to take them unawares while they slept? Small chance of that; whatever else might be said of him, Tywin Lannister was no man’s fool."  Again, the exact scenario Robb wanted to avoid which is why he gave the command to Bolton instead of Greatjon. On the surface of it everything Bolton does seems to contradict his own estimate of Tywin and the reasoning behind giving him command in the first place. Tyrion thinks it's a stupid plan for a fifteen year old boy, what would he make of knowing it was a veterean of wars like Bolton in command? Something I've always thought but then on rereading this part of GOT I came across these last lines that really make you wonder.

"He glimpsed the bull moose of the Hornwoods, the Karstark sunburst, Lord Cerwyn’s battle-axe, and the mailed fist of the Glovers … and the twin towers of Frey, blue on grey." No mention of the flayed man from Tyrion's pov throughout the battle. Perhaps he just didn't mention it but why not? Perhaps because it isn't at the front. My own belief that Bolton started working against the North as soon as he was given command makes me think Roose would want to use his own personal men as a reargaurd so he could lose as few as possible while the others took the brunt of the losses.

Bolton is given command because Robb wants a cunning and cautious man not wasting men charging straight at the Lannister army the way the Greatjon wanted to yet this is exactly what Roose then proceeds to do. It doesn't make sense to me unless I think of it as Bolton already looking to his own interests. I don't think he has a specific plan in mind doing this but what I do think is Roose is already looking to clear the field of some of his competition in the North.

[bloodymime]

It's also funny how one of the most evil seeming Houses in the books is exactly what it appears to be. Is there a more ominious banner than the flayed man? You have the Dreadfort and all the whispers of what the Boltons get up to there and the freaky man Roose Bolton himself with the dead eyes and you expect them to be traitorous bastards so much that you almost have to figure they'd redeem themselves in some way showing themselves as good and loyal bannermen. Not in this world though.

[Anvilbreaker]

easily the least morally grey of all the houses in the book, and I honestly don't think that there is anything to be done to change that view

[Gurkhal]

Interesting thread and topic. I'm gonna go to bed now but I hope to be back tomorrow and give some comments.

[Jaehaerys Sand]

Well, keeping your own men off the front lines is hardly treasonous.

I also have reason to doubt that he intentionally tried to lose the battle. If he meant to lose, why did he retreat?

[bloodymime]

Jaehaerys Sand, on 28 April 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

Well, keeping your own men off the front lines is hardly treasonous.

I also have reason to doubt that he intentionally tried to lose the battle. If he meant to lose, why did he retreat?

He's not Zap Brannigan to get to keep sending wave after wave of men to their deaths without people getting a little suspicious. Like I said he didn't really have a plan other than wanting to clear the field a bit of men he's going to see as the competition which he did.

That is the biggest flaw I see in it is why nobody especially Robb questions why he does exactly what Robb wants to avoid in sending Roose instead of the Greatjon. Enough lords got away to give a true version of the battle so it's not like Bolton could just make up his own story.

And not asking his own men to share the frontline doesn't seem very square.


It has to be without question now after the last book that there is no morally gray doubt for the Boltons anymore, they're as black as the dungeons beneath the Dreadfort.

Edited by bloodymime, 28 April 2012 - 03:04 PM.

[The Last Direwolf]

Roose Bolton always intended to turn his cloak, I think. He served Robb satisfactorily enough to not arouse suspicion, but always tried to keep his men away from the fighting. This was because when he turned his cloak he wanted to be in a position of power over his fellow bannermen. In the meantime, he watched and waited, examined his options carefully and made secret alliances. When he saw Robb's supporters leaving him one by one because of the Westerling marriage, that is when I believe he began scheming with the Freys and Lannisters.

[Castel]

I personally think he turned when he saw that there was no benefit to fighting on and yet Robb was determined to do it anyway, while alienating the entire realm with his secession. Literally no other king would have tolerated it and so no matter who took King's landing there would have been war.

[Ser Hippie]

He didn't actually lose too badly at the Green Fork, and I imagine he could have passed it off as a risky move but one with a lot of upside (if he'd caught Tywin by surprise) and/or one that tied Tywin's army down for a long period of time. I think the number of non-Bolton lords/knights who are captured or killed demonstrates that his general policy is to put other troops in the line of fire first, not that he was planning outright betrayal.

Until we get into ACOK, I think Bolton's best described as hedging his bets but still more or less on Robb's side, although I'm guessing he'd have favored bending the knee and going back home. Robb's refusal to either ally with a Baratheon (By at least saying he'd abandon his claim to kingship) or bend the knee (once Stannis is defeated) coupled with the marriage to Jeyne obviously destroyed any lingering doubts for Roose though.

Edited by Ser Hippie, 28 April 2012 - 03:07 PM.

[Dr. Pepper]

Those first two comments were given by Robb to Catelyn while they were still in the Neck area.  Robb is discussing whether or not Tywin would be stupid enough to enter the Neck (where the crannogmen would deliver a swift blow) or if Robb will have to meet them.  Glover and Bolton acknowledge that Tywin is at least smart enough not to fall into a trap in the Neck.  This isn't any sign of a betrayal...it's the truth.  It's also true that Tywin had more forces than Robb and attacking them head-on would be suicide, even if they attempted to do it at night.  The Greatjon is more of a hot-headed sort of warrior who doesn't really think about alternatives.  Robb acknowledges that the plan he means to carry out can't be lead by a hot-headed warrior.  Catelyn is the one that points out that he needs someone like Bolton to do it.

If Tywin won't meet them in the Neck and if Tywin outnumbers Robb's forces, the best hope they have is to make Tywin meet them where they want and to split Tywin's forces.  The Battle at the Green Fork was just what it was meant to be.  It was a feint that was meant to hide the fact that Robb had crossed the river with most of his force and was headed down to Riverrun to take on Jamie.  Bolton never actually had any hope of winning at the Green Fork. The whole point of sending Bolton was because he could be trusted to attack Tywin just enough to draw his eye where they wanted it drawn and then retreat before too many heavy losses.  That Bolton didn't send his men to the front lines isn't a sign of betrayal...it's smart because you want to keep the forces you know closest.  He did send the Freys, who he is sort of allied with through his marriage to Fat Walda Frey.

That this battle worked out exactly as Robb intended indicates to me that this is not when Bolton started to betray him.  It would have been easy for Bolton to place a certain hostage in Tywin's hands that could have warned him about Robb going to face Jaime at the Whispering Wood, but he didn't and Jaime was captured.

I think Roose really started thinking about a betrayal first when Ramsay was running amok up North and killing Lady Hornwood and then taking Winterfell and more so when Robb committed a political blunder against the Frey's.  When he finds out all of this is when he sends off a large part of Robb's forces into a trap in Duskendale and communicating with Tywin via the Freys.  I think Roose was more of an opportunist than someone who was scheming the moment Robb called the banners.

[A Time for Wolves]

Ser Hippie, on 28 April 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

He didn't actually lose too badly at the Green Fork, and I imagine he could have passed it off as a risky move but one with a lot of upside (if he'd caught Tywin by surprise) and/or one that tied Tywin's army down for a long period of time. I think the number of non-Bolton lords/knights who are captured or killed demonstrates that his general policy is to put other troops in the line of fire first, not that he was planning outright betrayal.

Until we get into ACOK, I think Bolton's best described as hedging his bets but still more or less on Robb's side, although I'm guessing he'd have favored bending the knee and going back home. Robb's refusal to either ally with a Baratheon (By at least saying he'd abandon his claim to kingship) or bend the knee (once Stannis is defeated) coupled with the marriage to Jeyne obviously destroyed any lingering doubts for Roose though.

+1

[Apple Martini]

Apart from Bolton's battlefield antics, does anyone believe that Ramsay had men from the Dreadfort sack Winterfell without daddy's permission?

[Grumpy Midget]

The Green Fork could offer additional motive for Bolton's betrayal.  Robb basking in all the glory while poor Roose is left stuck with the job of live bait.

[Dr. Pepper]

Apple Martini, on 28 April 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

Apart from Bolton's battlefield antics, does anyone believe that Ramsay had men from the Dreadfort sack Winterfell without daddy's permission?

As of ADWD, I believe Ramsay married and killed Lady Hornwood and sacked Winterfell without daddy's permission.  If Roose would have given his permission, it seems likely that he would have at least warned Ramsay not to make his moves so blindingly obvious.  Doing these things might have been a Plan B for Roose in case Robb's war didn't turn out as expected, but now they are stuck with the sack of Winterfell by Ramsay being the worst kept secret in the north and their closest northern ally being related to the flayed and murdered Lady Hornwood.

[bloodymime]

Those first quotes are showing that nobody expects to catch Tywin Lannister with his drawers down which is exactly what the Greatjon wanted to try which is exactly why Robb places Bolton in command instead who then proceeds to supposedly try to catch Tywin Lannister with his drawers down. Instead of coming close enough to Lannister to make him unable to march without worry of the Northerners attacking from the rear and then strengthening a position to favor his infantry army he marches straight into ground that favors Tywins cavalry. Not something you'd expect from a man with a reputation of cautious cunning.

On the face of it he follows a plan of battle that Robb specifically wanted to avoid in sending him instead of Greatjon. I'm not saying he does this following some kind of masterplan or plotting with Lannister already, just a treacherous man seeing the opportunity sow a little chaos and increase his own power by weakening the power of some of his fellow lords. It wasn't a smashing defeat but most battles rarely are and it's not like he's a stupid enough man to raise suspicions by any crazy cries of fighting to the last man.

And this is a culture that expects men to be warriors and would see it as a sign of cowardice keeping his own men safe from the front while other men are doing the dying and bleeding and I do think that Tyrion not seeing the flayed man on the field in his pov is Martin's first clue that Bolton is playing his own game that you come to see explicitly in Dance.

Also I'm pretty sure that Bolton isn't married to fat Walda at that point. Not that I think it would matter to him anyways.

[bloodymime]

The Last Direwolf, on 28 April 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

Roose Bolton always intended to turn his cloak, I think. He served Robb satisfactorily enough to not arouse suspicion, but always tried to keep his men away from the fighting. This was because when he turned his cloak he wanted to be in a position of power over his fellow bannermen. In the meantime, he watched and waited, examined his options carefully and made secret alliances. When he saw Robb's supporters leaving him one by one because of the Westerling marriage, that is when I believe he began scheming with the Freys and Lannisters.

This, he saw a weakened House Stark with Ned in the dungeons of KL and being led in the field by a fifteen year old boy. What better time to set things on fire and see which way the wind blows.

[Groat]

Giving Bolton command of half his army was probably one of Robb's more foolish decisions as a general. The Boltons flayed Starks in the past, and Robb knows this. Ned had warned Robb of Roose while growing up, and Robb has most likely met Roose over the years, enough to know his character. Giving Bolton half his army, Robb should not be asking himself if Bolton would turn his cloak, but when would Bolton turn his cloak. This is almost certainly how Roose would view the situation.

An interesting thought, what if Bolton was sending Tywin a message with his battle strategies. By not putting his own men on the front lines, Bolton is saying a lot.

[Dr. Pepper]

bloodymime, on 28 April 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

Those first quotes are showing that nobody expects to catch Tywin Lannister with his drawers down which is exactly what the Greatjon wanted to try which is exactly why Robb places Bolton in command instead who then proceeds to supposedly try to catch Tywin Lannister with his drawers down. Instead of coming close enough to Lannister to make him unable to march without worry of the Northerners attacking from the rear and then strengthening a position to favor his infantry army he marches straight into ground that favors Tywins cavalry. Not something you'd expect from a man with a reputation of cautious cunning.

The Greatjon thought to try to smash Tywin's forces.  He's all about going down in glory while fighting.  He can't be trusted to do a fake-out the way a cold and calculating man like Roose could.

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On the face of it he follows a plan of battle that Robb specifically wanted to avoid in sending him instead of Greatjon. I'm not saying he does this following some kind of masterplan or plotting with Lannister already, just a treacherous man seeing the opportunity sow a little chaos and increase his own power by weakening the power of some of his fellow lords. It wasn't a smashing defeat but most battles rarely are and it's not like he's a stupid enough man to raise suspicions by any crazy cries of fighting to the last man.

The Greatjon's plan wasn't totally worthless.  The best part of it is that they can make Tywin think what they want him to think.  Tyrion even questions how stupid Robb could be by thinking they could catch Tywin with his pants down.  If they didn't at least attempt to attack, it would have signaled to Tywin that Robb had an alternative battle plan.  Having Roose attack was as much a feint as it was to convince Tywin that Robb was just a green boy easily read.

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And this is a culture that expects men to be warriors and would see it as a sign of cowardice keeping his own men safe from the front while other men are doing the dying and bleeding and I do think that Tyrion not seeing the flayed man on the field in his pov is Martin's first clue that Bolton is playing his own game that you come to see explicitly in Dance.

This is exactly why the Greatjon isn't a good candidate.  He would see it as a slight against him if he were told to retreat at the earliest possible moment.  He would have sent in all of his strength only to be demolished.  Roose isn't that hot-headed.  He's calculating enough to recognize that he isn't being sent into a battle to earn a song for his glory.  He's being sent because he can be trusted to do just enough to make Tywin think what Robb wanted him to think and no more.

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Also I'm pretty sure that Bolton isn't married to fat Walda at that point. Not that I think it would matter to him anyways.

You're right.  Bolton was ordered to retreat to the Twins after the Green Fork and this is when he married Fat Walda.  But I don't think his marrying her then is any indication that he really started his betrayal then.

[Apple Martini]

Groat, on 28 April 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Giving Bolton command of half his army was probably one of Robb's more foolish decisions as a general. The Boltons flayed Starks in the past, and Robb knows this. Ned had warned Robb of Roose while growing up, and Robb has most likely met Roose over the years, enough to know his character. Giving Bolton half his army, Robb should not be asking himself if Bolton would turn his cloak, but when would Bolton turn his cloak. This is almost certainly how Roose would view the situation.

An interesting thought, what if Bolton was sending Tywin a message with his battle strategies. By not putting his own men on the front lines, Bolton is saying a lot.

Hindsight's 20/20. I too have said that perhaps Robb should not have trusted someone like Bolton — I remember that Bolton "bugged" both him and Catelyn — but someone would always remind me that it'd be like 1,000 years since the Boltons and the Starks were last at war. In that sense, Robb holding that against Bolton still would look silly. It's only by knowing how it turned out that it's clear Robb made a mistake.

[TheMazVolta]

When he sent the forces to Duskendale, that was probably the first, most overt, tratorious act in the book.

In reality he probably always planned on coming out on the winning side.

Edited by TheMazVolta, 28 April 2012 - 04:50 PM.