88 replies to this topic

[greywindsrage]

Ashwee, on 30 April 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

I actually think that it might be Arya. Arya will grow up and look like Lyanna, it's already been said that she resembles her, and cast down Cersei. Arya has as much reason to hate Cersei as anyone else and it would make a nice end if Cersei is finished by the spitting image of Lyanna, the woman who has haunted her all of her life.

I have no problem with that theory. Its just that it seems too obvious. Especially since we all love Arya. GRRM has a way of dealing with matters differently. Instead of killing Jaime he has his hand chopped off, which for Jaime is the worst thing to happen because he can no longer do what he loves the most. Instead of killing Cersei he has her shamed infront of everyone. Even though she doesn't die this is just as fullfilling because her pride has been wounded greatly. So having said that making Arya the one to do it is more of what the fans would want. That is not GRRM's style. Arya hates Cersei yes but she never had to live under the same roof after the execution of Ned. Sansa is the one who had to bear that. She suffered from Joffreys treatment and Cersei did nothing about it. She had all her hopes in Robbs victories only to find out he was killed. Sansa is probably the only character who hasn't completely changed from her experiences. I believe we have yet to see what she will become. What you say about Lyanna makes sense though because her beauty destroyed Cersei's love for Robert. It's just that Arya is too obvious just like Dany and GRRM doesn't do obvious.

Edited by greywindsrage, 30 April 2012 - 01:29 AM.

[greywindsrage]

Exitao, on 29 April 2012 - 01:26 AM, said:

I hope it's not Sansa. As Starks go, she's the least likable. Rickan
Is whiney and boring, but he may grow out of it. I haven't seen any qualities I like from Sansa.
I like Cersei better than Sansa and no one's supposed to like Cersei.

Thats exactly why it could be Sansa. GRRM never does what we want or expect.

[yono1986]

"Queen you shall be, until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear"

In order to understand this, we have to realize that Cersei holds two things dear, her children, and the power that she wields in a man's world.  Both of these are taken from her by Margaery.  After Tommen's marriage, he seems to care more for Margaery's interests than for his mother's, and his nature develops as being kind and easygoing, rather than cruel and manipulative, like his mother.  Tommen also likes Tyrells more than Lannisters (Margaery, Loras, Margaery's entourage) than he does Lannisters.  The other thing that Cersei loves is power.  As queen regent she knows that her days of power are numbered, and limits Tommen's input into governance as much as she can, since if Tommen has any power, that is less power for her.  Cersei's paranoia towards Margaery land her in trouble with the faith, and her walk of shame strips her of any hope for future political influence.  So Margaery, either directly or indirectly, takes the two things Cersei holds dear from her, her children, and her political clout.

[SerMixalot]

Sansa's wolf's name was Lady

Lady is a term refering to a lord's wife

Grace is a term refering to the queen

If the wolves' names areprophetic, Sansa will be a lady and not a queen

[SerMixalot]

all that you hold dear


clearly cersei held joffrey dear
sansa clearly was not involved in that loss
it appears that hte queen of thrones and by extension Margaery, killed Joffrey (though if anything is consistent in GRRMs books, it is that what appears is not always the case)
I am beginning to like the Taena angle, but what would her motivation be, did cersei ever hurt her house?

[Grail King]

Apple Martini, on 28 April 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

It could easily be a play on words, leading readers to think they saw something they didn't (see: a Stark knocked up Ashara Dayne). The wording is something like, "you'll be queen, but another will come along, younger and more beautiful, and eff you up." "Another" is not ever specified as being "another queen." That's how readers take it, with "queen" being implied, but it doesn't necessarily have to be read that way.

I like Sansa for it, in whatever iteration you choose. I think it's a double bluff: one for Cersei (who thinks it's Margaery), and one for readers (who are led to think it's probably Dany). My feeling that it isn't Dany comes from the part where the "other" will take all that Cersei "holds dear." That suggests a feeling of personal animosity beyond generic political feuds. I think it's someone with a personal score to settle with Cersei, and for that reason, I think it will be Sansa.

Yes^^^ I can't wait to see Sansa do a Carrie on KL, and possibly CR

[Grail King]

Exitao, on 29 April 2012 - 01:26 AM, said:

I hope it's not Sansa. As Starks go, she's the least likable. Rickan
Is whiney and boring, but he may grow out of it. I haven't seen any qualities I like from Sansa.
I like Cersei better than Sansa and no one's supposed to like Cersei.

I disagree.

[Grail King]

Dr. Pepper, on 29 April 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

Oh, I love the Starks, too.  They are consistently my favorite characters in the series and the North and Neck are my favorite places to read about. I just think that the Starks belong in the North and I hope they give up all southron ambitions.

----
So along with my theory that Taena Merryweather could be the younger, more beautiful person to cast down Cersei, I've got another theory about what the golden shroud could be about.

I'm looking at this part of the propecy: “Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds.”  Maggy the Frog says this after she tells Cersei that she (not she and Robert) will have three children.

One definition of shroud is of a cloth used to wrap a corpse for burial.  This definition of shroud is used sparingly throughout books.  Another definition is simply cloak.  This is also used in the books.  Yet another definition of shroud is to veil or cloak a secret.  This definition is used most often.

So, if her children will have 'golden crowns', meaning golden hair, then their golden shrouds could be the veil of their secret parentage.

I don't think Taena merely escaped King's Landing just because Cersei had been arrested and I don't think Taena was ever Cersei's friend.  There's a theory that Taena's son, Russel, is actually Robert's bastard.  One accusation against Cersei that she's denied is that her children are actually Jamie's.  Stannis wanted to use one of Robert's bastards to prove that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen were not Robert's children.  Perhaps Taena will return to King's Landing with black-haired Russel in tow and present him to the court as proof that the golden crowns of Cersei's children are proof that her biggest secret is that they are actually Jamie's bastards.  Jamie had warned Cersei about not trusting Taena.

Except this is a false premise, this current batch of Starks had / have no Southern ambitions, that ended with the death of Eddards father and brother, the only reason why they went south was to help Robert, after what went down in KL it became a rescue mission to get Eddard and the girls out and return to Winterfell which failed sadly.

[Lord Ben]

I prefer to think even more outside the box and that the person taking all they hold dear isn't even a woman but it's Ser Loras.   She even gets mad at him for showing Tommen a few things about riding horses, etc and Tommen becoming quite a fan of Loras.   And he's described as quite beautiful, at least until his rumored mauling but that might have just been to protect him from her.

[Jolene Brown]

I briefly got into the idea that Cercei is pregnant and the valonquar (the little brother of her current children) will kill her by her dying in childbirth.  I like when the prophecies are metaphorical, not straight-up literall.  However, I had forgotten that when we see her have sex with Jamie on Joffrey's bier, she has her "moon blood."  I can't actually remember anymore where all that stuff about her clothes not fitting is.  Is that A Feast for Crows?  To me, the way that was written signified pregnancy, but I don't see when it could have happened.  It would only be dramatically satisfying if it was Jamie's child and it seems biologically unlikely (impossible?) for her to get pregnant at that time in her cycle.

Edited by Jolene Brown, 13 May 2012 - 06:28 PM.

[Dr. Pepper]

Grail King, on 13 May 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Except this is a false premise, this current batch of Starks had / have no Southern ambitions, that ended with the death of Eddards father and brother, the only reason why they went south was to help Robert, after what went down in KL it became a rescue mission to get Eddard and the girls out and return to Winterfell which failed sadly.

Ned going south to King's Landing to help Robert and betrothing Sansa to the crown prince is still a southron ambition.  Robb going south to pressure the crown to release his father and sisters and claiming the crown for the Riverlands (along with the North) are still southron ambitions.  Even if their ambitions are not the same as Rickard's and Brandon's, they are ambitions all the same.

Edited by Dr. Pepper, 13 May 2012 - 10:05 PM.

[Grail King]

I'm more in thinking one of Eddard's daughter, both have a tie in with Cersei:

Sansa as Cersei's future daughter in law who basically screwed Sansa and with LF help her family.

Arya as the ghost of Lyanna when she grows up may come for Cersei looking the spitting image of her aunt Lyanna.

[Grail King]

Dr. Pepper, on 13 May 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Ned going south to King's Landing to help Robert and betrothing Sansa to the crown prince is still a southron ambition.  Robb going south to pressure the crown to release his father and sisters and claiming the crown for the Riverlands (along with the North) are still southron ambitions.  Even if their ambitions are not the same as Rickon's and Brandon's, they are ambitions all the same.

I disagree, southern ambition is to sit the throne and no Starks in this generation wanted that, and Eddard was sending the girls home for safety and to match Sansa with someone better in the future.
The southern ambition is a political one, not what the Starks care about.

[etu]

Dr. Pepper, on 13 May 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Ned going south to King's Landing to help Robert and betrothing Sansa to the crown prince is still a southron ambition.  Robb going south to pressure the crown to release his father and sisters and claiming the crown for the Riverlands (along with the North) are still southron ambitions.  Even if their ambitions are not the same as Rickon's and Brandon's, they are ambitions all the same.

Unless by southron ambition, you mean having anything to do with the South, then I really can't see those as counting.

If you do, I hope they don't. They'd be so boring as utter isolationists.

[Dr. Pepper]

Grail King, on 13 May 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

I disagree, southern ambition is to sit the throne and no Starks in this generation wanted that, and Eddard was sending the girls home for safety and to match Sansa with someone better in the future.
The southern ambition is a political one, not what the Starks care about.

Huh?  There's no evidence that Rickard and Brandon were going south in order to sit the throne, at least no evidence that I know of.  The ambitions Ned and Robb have south of the Neck are political in nature.   Perhaps I'm using a narrower definition of ambition than you are (ambition meaning the desire to achieve something)?  I'm getting most of my narrow definition based on Lady Dustin's conversation with Theon.

Edited by Dr. Pepper, 13 May 2012 - 10:04 PM.

[Dr. Pepper]

etu, on 13 May 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

Unless by southron ambition, you mean having anything to do with the South, then I really can't see those as counting.

If you do, I hope they don't. They'd be so boring as utter isolationists.

The Starks spent 7,700 year being isolationists, and they thrived.  Their history is just as rich as any other region.

[There are, of course, questions concerning the actual time frame, but still it was a hell of a long time to spend as rulers of a sovereign kingdom.

[etu]

Dr. Pepper, on 13 May 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

The Starks spent 7,700 year being isolationists, and they thrived.  Their history is just as rich as any other region.

[There are, of course, questions concerning the actual time frame, but still it was a hell of a long time to spend as rulers of a sovereign kingdom.

Yes, but I don't care about the fictional creations' well being. I care about how interesting they are

[Ragnorak]

"I will be queen, though?”
“Aye. ... Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.”

Although she doesn't say "another queen" given the question and the answer "another" does grammatically refer to a another queen and it fits in with the context of her question.  Still not 100% has to be a queen though.  The part that strikes me is the "cast you down."  This seems for more like a Dany than a Margaery.  Margaery was more on a course to eclipse Cersei than cast her down and Cersei's current troubles are more her own doing than Margaery's.  It still could be a Sansa, Arya, Jeyne Westerling or some other possibility.  It strikes me that power is the only thing Cersei holds dear.  The only way to take Cersei's power without claiming yourself would be to kill her two children.  "Cast down" implies a more active role than causing The Faith to cast her down through self defense.  On the bright side Cersei has nothing to fear from Selyse.

“Will the king and I have children?” she asked.
“Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. ... Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds.  And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

Since this answer comes in reference to her children, it lends support to the Tommen will strangle her theory.  Will I have chidren?  Yes, and the younger brother will strangle you.  Of course the father of her children is her younger brother so that's still in the context of her question.  The part that makes Tommen unlikely is that "shrouds" likely means they'll die because their golden hair didn't hide them it is what gave them away to Stannis, Jon Arryn, Ned, LF, Varys, etc-- unless its some strange twist on hiding in plain sight.

Part of me would love to see Arya behead Tommen and Mrycella with Widow's Wail in front of Cersei at the Sept of Baelor while imparting the information that Tyrion just inherited Casterly Rock followed by Jaime strangling Cersei for getting their last two children killed-- but that's probably not in the cards.

[greywindsrage]

yono1986, on 13 May 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

"Queen you shall be, until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear"

In order to understand this, we have to realize that Cersei holds two things dear, her children, and the power that she wields in a man's world.  Both of these are taken from her by Margaery.  After Tommen's marriage, he seems to care more for Margaery's interests than for his mother's, and his nature develops as being kind and easygoing, rather than cruel and manipulative, like his mother.  Tommen also likes Tyrells more than Lannisters (Margaery, Loras, Margaery's entourage) than he does Lannisters.  The other thing that Cersei loves is power.  As queen regent she knows that her days of power are numbered, and limits Tommen's input into governance as much as she can, since if Tommen has any power, that is less power for her.  Cersei's paranoia towards Margaery land her in trouble with the faith, and her walk of shame strips her of any hope for future political influence.  So Margaery, either directly or indirectly, takes the two things Cersei holds dear from her, her children, and her political clout.

That is a great way to interpret the prophecy. I really can't argue with that.

[Lord Ben]

One could even argue the prophecy has already been fulfilled.