72 replies to this topic

[The Dark Viper]

The title says it all my friends...

Ive been searching the forums for infomation but all that seems to come up are theories about jeyne and her possible pregnancy etc.

Does anyone know what parts in the books lead towards the theory that Tywin organized Robb to mary Jeyne?

thanks

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The exchange between Jaime and Sybelle Spicer. And the fact that Tywin was fine with it and promised Sybelle Spicer Lannister brides and bridegrooms for her children, and Castamere for her brother.

[butterbumps!]

Also- when Arya's at Harrenhall she takes poignant note that Roose is always writing letters late into the night.  Though the recipient is never specified, it is likely that Roose is writing to Tywin, working out some kind of alliance --Roose receives the "gift" of Arya with ties to Winterfell and a blanket pardon by Tywin for betraying Robb.

[Lady Hodor]

I had never heard of anything like that before. But it sounds like something ingenious Tywin would do.

[kissdbyfire]

From the last Jaime chapter in AFfC:

Jeyne burst from her chair and would have fled the room if the guard at the door had not seized her by the arm. “She is not,” said Lady Sybell, as her daughter struggled to escape. “I made certain of that, as your lord father bid me.”
Jaime nodded. Tywin Lannister was not a man to overlook such details. “Unhand the girl,” he said, “I’m done with her for now.” As Jeyne fled sobbing down the stairs, he considered her mother. “House Westerling has its pardon, and your brother Rolph has been made Lord of Castamere. What else would you have of us?”

[The Frosted King]

Tywin didn't ochestrate it, but he did take advantage of it.
He'd probably had correspondence with Jeynes mother, and set her to the task of making sure the wolf got no pups.
Tywin was good at taking the oppurtunities providence sent his way, but he's not all powerful.

[BondJamesBond]

Kissdbyfire, on 29 April 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

House Westerling has its pardon, and your brother Rolph has been made Lord of Castamere. What else would you have of us?”

Why would they need a pardon if Tywin planned it?

I'm sorry but this is a crackpot theory.  Tywin certainly took advantage of Robb's vulnerability caused by marrying jayne, but he can't manipulate people falling in love.

Edited by BondJamesBond, 29 April 2012 - 11:06 AM.

[Ran]

It is clear enough that Sybelle and her brother Rolph came up with the scheme and sent word to Tywin so that he was aware that they weren't betraying him. Tywin then made it plain though secret channels that they would be rewarded rather than punished for taking the initiative. The pardon was merely part of the effort to obcure the fact that the Spicers had acted out of treachery.

[Darth Rivers]

Whether he did it or not, he certainly made the most of it.

[bloodymime]

My own guess is it's the mother making the best of a very potentially lethal situation but it being preplanned is not impossible. Take a handsome young king full of tragedy and a young pretty girl full of kindness, push them together, shake well and let hormonal nature take it's course.

[Dr. Pepper]

The Dark Viper, on 29 April 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

The title says it all my friends...

Ive been searching the forums for infomation but all that seems to come up are theories about jeyne and her possible pregnancy etc.

Does anyone know what parts in the books lead towards the theory that Tywin organized Robb to mary Jeyne?

thanks

There is no part in the books that supports the theory that Tywin masterminded the Westerling wedding.  I think people get confused because some characters in the books make it seem as though Tywin is this all-knowing deity who can make anything happen.  The truth is there is no evidence that he's a master schemer.  He's a shrewd politician and opportunist.  He's not so great at the scheming and military commanding.

[eyomomo]

Tywin did not mastermind the wedding, the Freys & Roose Bolton planned the whole thing. They approached Tywin with the plan & he consented that the crown would forgive their initial treason of supporting Robb Stark's rebellion & grant Riverrun to Emmon Frey. There is a scene in aCoK where Tywin discusses the whole event with Tyrion.

butterbumps!, on 29 April 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

Also- when Arya's at Harrenhall she takes poignant note that Roose is always writing letters late into the night.  Though the recipient is never specified, it is likely that Roose is writing to Tywin, working out some kind of alliance --Roose receives the "gift" of Arya with ties to Winterfell and a blanket pardon by Tywin for betraying Robb.

THIS ^ There's a scene in aCok where Tywin also tells Tyrion that some wars are won with "quills & ravens."

I don't think the Westerling's betrayed Robb until they knew it was too late to do anything else but try to save their own hides. It could be true that Mama Westerling was giving Jeyne moon tea (abortion tea) the whole time, but I doubt that they were scheming against Robb from the beginning. If they had known what would go down at the Red Wedding, they wouldn't have let their son go along as Robb's squire. Plus there is a theory floating around that the girl Jaime saw at Riverrun wasn't the real Jeyne. Mama Westerling points this out to Jaime as well.

EDIT: woops! I just realized this thread is questioning if he masterminded the Westerling Wedding not the RW. He didn't mastermind either! But def took advantage of the circumstances.

Edited by eyomomo, 29 April 2012 - 12:54 PM.

[Ragnorak]

The Westerling Wedding happened just as Robb tells it.  It is clear that some of the family were not happy about it (the ones Grey Wind was not fond of) and they were plotting with Tywin.  Tywin expolited these circumstances to plan the Red Wedding.

Robb slept with Jeyne because he was wounded and she was treating him and he was distraught over Bran and Rickon being killed by Theon.  There is no reasonable way to predict, plot or plan circumstances like this.  Robb choosing the Jeyne's honor over his own is hardly a knowable outcome even if it is in keeping with his character.  Even if Tywin could have planned the whole thing he would base Robb's reaction on what he thinks Ned would do-- marry the Frey and bring any possible bastard child to Winterfel.

[David Selig]

Because (some) people are wrong.

There's simply no way Tywin could've planned this marriage, it was the result of succession of incidents he had no way to predict.

[etu]

For Tywin to have planned it, he'd have to have been absolutely sure Robb would bed Jeyne (given Robb's sense of honour, that was enough)

Given how Tywin says that Jeyne was her "Mother's Daughter", and mentions how Sybelle is the daughter of a Magi, the Magi at least knowing certain potions (and Sybelle's explanation of knowing a fertility potion was treated as plausible enough, so it appears Sybelle does too), then if you assume Sybelle knew how to make a powerful aphrodisiac/love potion, then I don't think its entirely out of the question.

Add in how calm Tywin is at the news, which Tyrion notes in surprise, and it begins to smell.

Also - why be so generous if Sybelle simply gave an abortificant? It's not like Tywin's reluctant to order such murders. Or known for his forgiving nature and wonderful generosity to liegemen. He didn't need Jeyne's parents to do anything once the Red Wedding was set up, which was all the Freys and Bolton anyway. The generosity would seem to indicate something more - like possibly encouraging Robb to break his vow of betrothal, and making an enemy of Lord Frey...

[eyomomo]

etu, on 29 April 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

For Tywin to have planned it, he'd have to have been absolutely sure Robb would bed Jeyne (given Robb's sense of honour, that was enough)

Given how Tywin says that Jeyne was her "Mother's Daughter", and mentions how Sybelle is the daughter of a Magi, the Magi at least knowing certain potions (and Sybelle's explanation of knowing a fertility potion was treated as plausible enough, so it appears Sybelle does too), then if you assume Sybelle knew how to make a powerful aphrodisiac/love potion, then I don't think its entirely out of the question.

Add in how calm Tywin is at the news, which Tyrion notes in surprise, and it begins to smell.

Also - why be so generous if Sybelle simply gave an abortificant? It's not like Tywin's reluctant to order such murders. Or known for his forgiving nature and wonderful generosity to liegemen. He didn't need Jeyne's parents to do anything once the Red Wedding was set up, which was all the Freys and Bolton anyway. The generosity would seem to indicate something more - like possibly encouraging Robb to break his vow of betrothal, and making an enemy of Lord Frey...

That bit about Tywin saying that Jeyne is "her mother's daughter" could just mean that Jeyne saw a chance at upward mobility & took it, at least that is how I initially interpreted it.

I don't think Tywin was being that generous, actually. He promised good marriages & Castamere, but wasn't Lady Westerling upset because the marriages that he arranged were not that beneficial to them?

[Fylimar]

I always thought that Tywin simply took advantage of Robb and Jeyne falling in love. I guess, he would have contacted the Westerling family member, he would be sure to be loyal to the Lannisters - which would be Sybil - and giving her instructions, maybe even tell her to spy on Robb for him. I don't think that he planned, that Robb should fall in love with Jeyne

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

The Dark Viper, on 29 April 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

The title says it all my friends... Ive been searching the forums for infomation but all that seems to come up are theories about jeyne and her possible pregnancy etc. Does anyone know what parts in the books lead towards the theory that Tywin organized Robb to mary Jeyne? thanks

Ran, on 29 April 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

It is clear enough that Sybelle and her brother Rolph came up with the scheme and sent word to Tywin so that he was aware that they weren't betraying him. Tywin then made it plain though secret channels that they would be rewarded rather than punished for taking the initiative. The pardon was merely part of the effort to obcure the fact that the Spicers had acted out of treachery.

butterbumps!, on 29 April 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

Also- when Arya's at Harrenhall she takes poignant note that Roose is always writing letters late into the night. Though the recipient is never specified, it is likely that Roose is writing to Tywin, working out some kind of alliance --Roose receives the "gift" of Arya with ties to Winterfell and a blanket pardon by Tywin for betraying Robb.

Bright Blue Eyes, on 29 April 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

The exchange between Jaime and Sybelle Spicer. And the fact that Tywin was fine with it and promised Sybelle Spicer Lannister brides and bridegrooms for her children, and Castamere for her brother.

Tut Tut.  Sybell Spicer is Magi the Frog's grand daughter, she's certainly putting one over on someone but I don't think its Robb Stark.  Where is Elenya Westerling, prey-tell?  Where is the Blackfish?   http://towerofthehan...orth/index.html

[Fragile Bird]

Lord Littlefinger, on 29 April 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

Tut Tut.  Sybell Spicer is Magi the Frog's grand daughter, she's certainly putting one over on someone but I don't think its Robb Stark.  Where is Elenya Westerling, prey-tell?  Where is the Blackfish?   http://towerofthehan...orth/index.html

Very nice link LLL.  Thanks for it.

[Patchface12]

When Tyrion was going to meet him at the start of ASoS he was sending a message off, and told Tyrion that 'some battles are won with quills and ravens'

Plus he confessed to Tyrion right after they got news of the Red Wedding