72 replies to this topic

[The Dark Viper]

From reading all these posts I'm now going by the theory that Robb and Jeyne fell in love and got married and Sybell took advantage of this situation by consorting with Tywin, most likely by insuring she didnt get pregnant. I'm assuming that she hadnt done this straight away however because she sent her son off to the red wedding? unless tywin didnt tell her... On another note im still not sure if the real jeyne was switched or not when she met jamie...which might mean that Sybell didnt really follow through with giving the pregnancy potion... time will only tell

[The Dark Viper]

Lord Littlefinger, on 29 April 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

Tut Tut.  Sybell Spicer is Magi the Frog's grand daughter, she's certainly putting one over on someone but I don't think its Robb Stark.  Where is Elenya Westerling, prey-tell?  Where is the Blackfish?   http://towerofthehan...orth/index.html

bumped this link...makes some good points!!

Edit: brilliant quote from above link...

"popular belief has it that the fake Arya is Jeyne Poole, Sansa's friend, and wouldn't that be deliciously Martin-esque, to have a common Jeyne pretending to be a high-born girl, while some common girl pretends to be a high-born Jeyne."

Edited by The Dark Viper, 29 April 2012 - 04:01 PM.

[jarl the climber]

The Dark Viper, on 29 April 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

bumped this link...makes some good points!!

Edit: brilliant quote from above link...

"popular belief has it that the fake Arya is Jeyne Poole, Sansa's friend, and wouldn't that be deliciously Martin-esque, to have a common Jeyne pretending to be a high-born girl, while some common girl pretends to be a high-born Jeyne."

Sybell did probaly start conspiring with Tywin after the fact of the marriage. Sybell might have suspected that Robb was to be assasinated but she had no idea there would be a massacre at the Twins. Its possible that she would have allowed Jeyne to get pregnant so that her family would have a claim to Winterfell.

When Jamie is talking to the Blackfish he offers to trade Edmure for Sybell and her 3 children. Her Father was taken captive at the Whispering Woods and was released after Robb married Jeyne. His Father was with the Lannister forces beseiging Riverrun. Jamie did not mention seeing the younger daughter but he did not mention that he didn't and he did beleive she was there. Jamie did mention seeing the Westerlings when he sent them off with Prester. He mentions the Father Gawen, Sybell and Jeyne and he did use the plural term, common sense would say he saw all three children but had no special reason to notice the youger two. Jamie easily saw through the fake Arya despite having payed no great attention to her, his powers of observation are probaly above average.

The best peice of evidence is the story of the crown. There is no mention of Jeyne having been given a crown by Robb. Cat doesn't mention it and we never see her wearing one. We don't even know if it was a custom for the King of the Norths wife to wear a crown. Robb did not seem to particularly care for his own calling it a thing at one point. Why would he give one to Jeyne as a gift?

Maybe Jeyne is the real one maybe she isn't for the sake of realism or beleivability I hope Martin has a plausible explanation for it. People in this day and age did not watch TV or use computers and even reading was uncommon. Hunting was much more common and in general people had sharper eyes as a result all though they did lack eyeglasses when they hit old age. The main form of entertainment was talking, storytelling and singing combined with drinking. The only real means of identifying somebody was by sight, there are no ID's or SSN or fingerprinting, and people in this type of world would be much better at this.

[Lord Ben]

BondJamesBond, on 29 April 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Why would they need a pardon if Tywin planned it?

I'm sorry but this is a crackpot theory.  Tywin certainly took advantage of Robb's vulnerability caused by marrying jayne, but he can't manipulate people falling in love.

Yeah, except for love potion makers being in the Westerling family... so actually he can.

IMHO it's pretty clear him breaking the vow with the Freys was manipulated by Tywin in order to isolate him from his allies and orchestrate their downfall.  Perhaps not with the Red Wedding specifically in mind but clearly some type of "gates are closed and we're trapped on the river while they attack us while pinned" type scenario at least.   The goal though was to isolate him from the Freys for breaking his vow and most likely his older more experienced commanders like Roose Bolton who weren't fighting the war to help Robb marry the girl he fell in love with and find happiness.

But the love potion bits of the story being in the Westerling family have no real reason for existing except with RE to the Robb Stark.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

jarl the climber, on 29 April 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

Sybell did probaly start conspiring with Tywin after the fact of the marriage. Sybell might have suspected that Robb was to be assasinated but she had no idea there would be a massacre at the Twins. Its possible that she would have allowed Jeyne to get pregnant so that her family would have a claim to Winterfell. When Jamie is talking to the Blackfish he offers to trade Edmure for Sybell and her 3 children. Her Father was taken captive at the Whispering Woods and was released after Robb married Jeyne. His Father was with the Lannister forces beseiging Riverrun. Jamie did not mention seeing the younger daughter but he did not mention that he didn't and he did beleive she was there. Jamie did mention seeing the Westerlings when he sent them off with Prester. He mentions the Father Gawen, Sybell and Jeyne and he did use the plural term, common sense would say he saw all three children but had no special reason to notice the youger two. Jamie easily saw through the fake Arya despite having payed no great attention to her, his powers of observation are probaly above average. The best peice of evidence is the story of the crown. There is no mention of Jeyne having been given a crown by Robb. Cat doesn't mention it and we never see her wearing one. We don't even know if it was a custom for the King of the Norths wife to wear a crown. Robb did not seem to particularly care for his own calling it a thing at one point. Why would he give one to Jeyne as a gift? Maybe Jeyne is the real one maybe she isn't for the sake of realism or beleivability I hope Martin has a plausible explanation for it. People in this day and age did not watch TV or use computers and even reading was uncommon. Hunting was much more common and in general people had sharper eyes as a result all though they did lack eyeglasses when they hit old age. The main form of entertainment was talking, storytelling and singing combined with drinking. The only real means of identifying somebody was by sight, there are no ID's or SSN or fingerprinting, and people in this type of world would be much better at this.

Eleyna Westerling is Jeyne's sister, so presumably they look similar...Unlike Jeyne Poole, whom half the North believes is Arya despite being of no relation. Also, I don't believe these people knew who anyone was half the time.

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 29 April 2012 - 05:58 PM.

[Derfel]

“The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere,” Tyrion pointed out. “You’d think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there.”
“Mayhaps they have,” Lord Tywin said. “They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you.”
“Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?”
Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. “The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them,” he said, and then, “You will marry Sansa Stark, Tyrion. And soon.”

I always thought that passage meant that the Westerling wedding was part of Tywin's masterplan.

[jarl the climber]

Derfel, on 29 April 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

“The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere,” Tyrion pointed out. “You’d think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there.”
“Mayhaps they have,” Lord Tywin said. “They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you.”
“Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?”
Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. “The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them,” he said, and then, “You will marry Sansa Stark, Tyrion. And soon.”

I always thought that passage meant that the Westerling wedding was part of Tywin's masterplan.

He could not forsee that Robb would be wounded or that his brothers would be killed while Jeyne was nursing him.

[etu]

eyomomo, on 29 April 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

That bit about Tywin saying that Jeyne is "her mother's daughter" could just mean that Jeyne saw a chance at upward mobility & took it, at least that is how I initially interpreted it.

I don't think Tywin was being that generous, actually. He promised good marriages & Castamere, but wasn't Lady Westerling upset because the marriages that he arranged were not that beneficial to them?

Could be. It could mean just about anything; I read into that the mother was important in this, mainly because of the other stuff around it, parts of which Lord Ben and Derfel have highlighted.

And compared to Tywin's attitude to the last lord of Castamere, he's been sweetness and bloody light (yes, I know, rather different situations before anyone says - my point is he's hardly a generous or forgiving man). Yes, the marriages are somewhat short change, but hey - he's paid his debt, and if they don't like it, who are they going to complain to? Their usefulness is done.

[jarl the climber]

Lord Littlefinger, on 29 April 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

Eleyna Westerling is Jeyne's sister, so presumably they look similar...Unlike Jeyne Poole, whom half the North believes is Arya despite being of no relation. Also, I don't believe these people knew who anyone was half the time.

There is no evidence that Elenya wasn't there just no explicit confirmation nor is there any confirmation of the younger son being there except a statement by Sybell, Jamie never actually confirms seeing him explixitly.

Since visual identification is the only means of recognizing somebody more thought would be put into this, its just common sense. If you had people searching for Arya, you would use such people who had accompanied Robert to Winterfell and were familiar with the Starks.

[David Selig]

The Dark Viper, on 29 April 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

Edit: brilliant quote from above link...

"popular belief has it that the fake Arya is Jeyne Poole, Sansa's friend, and wouldn't that be deliciously Martin-esque, to have a common Jeyne pretending to be a high-born girl, while some common girl pretends to be a high-born Jeyne."

Except that Jeyne Poole is a noble.

Using a love potion as a plot device for such an important thing as Robb's marriage would be terrible writing IMO. Why resort to magic when being 16, horny and silly would suffice perfectly?

Edited by David Selig, 29 April 2012 - 06:23 PM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

jarl the climber, on 29 April 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

There is no evidence that Elenya wasn't there just no explicit confirmation nor is there any confirmation of the younger son being there except a statement by Sybell, Jamie never actually confirms seeing him explixitly.

yeah which means she isn't there as far as I'm concerned.  Which is the same way I treat every situation.  Why I say Jon Snow isn't dead, no one saw him die and confirmed he was dead.

Quote

Since visual identification is the only means of recognizing somebody more thought would be put into this, its just common sense. If you had people searching for Arya, you would use such people who had accompanied Robert to Winterfell and were familiar with the Starks.

I don't believe in common sense, its just a way of saying "I don't have any evidence"  I think its equally likely no one in that day and age knew who anyone was, but that was ok because people didn't need to and they didn't travel very far, generally.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

David Selig, on 29 April 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

Except that Jeyne Poole is a noble.

Using a love potion as a plot device for such an important thing as Robb's marriage would be terrible writing IMO. Why resort to magic when being 16, horny and silly would suffice perfectly?

its not important. Anymore than its important which Lannister cousins Rickard Karstark killed.


I don't know about the whole love potion thing, I'm more interested in the prophecy.  But it does explain why Jeyne should think her mother's fertility potion would work and why her mother would have access to various potions.  I don't know why we would get all that information about Magi the Frog otherwise.

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 29 April 2012 - 07:19 PM.

[jarl the climber]

Lord Littlefinger, on 29 April 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

yeah which means she isn't there as far as I'm concerned.  Which is the same way I treat every situation.  Why I say Jon Snow isn't dead, no one saw him die and confirmed he was dead.

I don't believe in common sense, its just a way of saying "I don't have any evidence"  I think its equally likely no one in that day and age knew who anyone was, but that was ok because people didn't need to and they didn't travel very far, generally.

When Jaime is seeing off Prester who is escorting the Westerlings and Edmure, he explicitly mentions seeing the Westerlings, this would seem to indicate that he saw all 5 of them. All the children were brought to Riverrun so they would not be taken as hostages.

Basically you are saying that yoyu don't beleive in common sense then use common sense to justify your own veiws. Even if Elenya was pretending to be Jeyne then someone was pretending to be Elenya.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

jarl the climber, on 29 April 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

When Jaime is seeing off Prester who is escorting the Westerlings and Edmure, he explicitly mentions seeing the Westerlings, this would seem to indicate that he saw all 5 of them. All the children were brought to Riverrun so they would not be taken as hostages.

It means he saw more than one Westerling, you can tell cause there's an "s" on the end.

Quote

Basically you are saying that yoyu don't beleive in common sense then use common sense to justify your own veiws. Even if Elenya was pretending to be Jeyne then someone was pretending to be Elenya.

was that common sense? I can never tell what is and isn't.  Which is why I don't believe in it.

[Lord Ben]

David Selig, on 29 April 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

Using a love potion as a plot device for such an important thing as Robb's marriage would be terrible writing IMO. Why resort to magic when being 16, horny and silly would suffice perfectly?

So magic returning to he world and the daughter of some potion master using it to influence the world is bad writing?   And two teenagers falling in love is mind blowingly good stuff?  

Sorry, Jeyne's Grandma was a person who "half of Lannisport" went to for love potions even before dragons flew again and now magic is awakening all over in numerous groups and individuals within Westeros.  You also add in confirmed consumption of potions (hidden as fertility) and stir in Tywin's calm acceptance and even joy and eventual forgiveness at his vassals daughter marrying the enemy rebel and I think it's pretty much a slam dunk that the Robb/Jeyne thing is another case of magic.   And Tywin is at the minimum aware of the plans of his bannerlady and possibly even orchestrating it.

Though it's far more likely Robb showed up at her house and fell into the trap which was later approved of by Tywin than him orchestrating it from the start.

Edited by Lord Ben, 29 April 2012 - 07:04 PM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

David Selig, on 29 April 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

Except that Jeyne Poole is a noble. Using a love potion as a plot device for such an important thing as Robb's marriage would be terrible writing IMO. Why resort to magic when being 16, horny and silly would suffice perfectly?

isn't Robb supposed to be a virgin also? I don't really believe he couldn't control himself on this one night when heard about Bran & Rickon. i mean i dunno.  I didn't sleep with every girl i had the opportunity when i was 16 and i didn't have the opportunity to sleep with most of the girl i wanted.  I mean couldn't he just opt for rear entry parking and let Jeyne keep maiden head?  

Either Robb is really honorable and acting incredibly out of character or he's not acting out of character, he's seen a boob before in which case why is he so moved at this particular time to go further than he has before or alternatively to marry this one out of his many "conquests".

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 29 April 2012 - 07:33 PM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

David Selig, on 29 April 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

Except that Jeyne Poole is a noble. Using a love potion as a plot device for such an important thing as Robb's marriage would be terrible writing IMO. Why resort to magic when being 16, horny and silly would suffice perfectly?

isn't Robb supposed to be a virgin also? I don't really believe he couldn't control himself on this one night when heard about Bran & Rickon. i mean i dunno.  I didn't sleep with every girl i had the opportunity when i was 16 and i didn't have the opportunity to sleep with most of the girl i wanted.  I mean couldn't he just opt for rear entry parking and let Jeyne keep maiden head?  

Either Robb is really honorable and acting incredibly out of character or he's not acting out of character, he's seen a boob before. in which case why is he so moved at this particular time to go further than he has before or alternatively to marry this one out of his many "conquests".

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 29 April 2012 - 07:38 PM.

[Towel]

eyomomo, on 29 April 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

That bit about Tywin saying that Jeyne is "her mother's daughter" could just mean that Jeyne saw a chance at upward mobility & took it, at least that is how I initially interpreted it.

I don't think Tywin was being that generous, actually. He promised good marriages & Castamere, but wasn't Lady Westerling upset because the marriages that he arranged were not that beneficial to them?

I don't think jeyne was in on the plan. I think tywin had sybill push her daughter into helping Robb heal on Tywins orders, on the chance that robb would fall for her.

Remember when Tyrion says he's planting lots of seeds, and he just has to see which come to fruit. Now remember how jaimes aunt told him that Tyrion was Tywins son?

I don't think that Robb falling for jeyne was thrills only plan, I think he planted lots of seeds and this one was the one that happened to come to fruit.

Edit: blame any misspellings and rushed sentences on the fact I'm on my phone and episode 5 is starting right now

Edited by Towel, 29 April 2012 - 07:59 PM.

[Lord Ben]

Why do people assume the "fertility" potion was really birth control?   What reason would they have not to have the heir?   If Robb was dead whoever controlled the heir has the rightful King of the North.   I can't think of any good reason to prevent her from having a child if you can control the child after it's born, and it appears they could have.

[Towel]

Lord Ben, on 29 April 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Why do people assume the "fertility" potion was really birth control?   What reason would they have not to have the heir?   If Robb was dead whoever controlled the heir has the rightful King of the North.   I can't think of any good reason to prevent her from having a child if you can control the child after it's born, and it appears they could have.

Because if you don't tywin wipes out your whole family.

Ask the castameres