17 replies to this topic

[Sofia Aillard]

Fist thread, so bare with me?

I was wondering how much we can "trust" the series as a source to the story...

I have been told that Dan and David can do whatever they want and that GRRM has told them things they shouldn't do, but they did anyway (kill Mago). BUT I don't think that they would do whatever they want, really!  

Being realistic, I think we all understand productions costs and that they can't follow every little detail that there is written in the books. And let's face it, GRRM likes to write! The guy can fill pages and pages (not that this is a bad thing!!!) with descriptions and characters that are not important to the main plot that, if followed to the letter (haha), would make the budget to an already costly series simply impossible!

So David and Dan change a few things here and there... (like the eggs not burning Dany scene).

IN THE MEANTIME, I read that GRRM is not really concerned with "simple" things like the color of someone's hair... So Jon's eyes are not grey, Brandon's eyes are not blue as they should be (having a "mother" and a "father" with blue eyes), Melisandre's are not red (so disappointing!!! Come on... A red lens is not expensive!!!), Tyrion's hair is not platinum, Mago probably won't return...

(http://samthielman.b...r-r-martin.html)

So it got me thinking that Dan and David CAN ALREADY KNOW the final destination and the landmarks to reach each day... Although they may not know the adventures GRRM decides to take along the journey.

All that for this:

>> Can the things that actually make the cut for the TV series count as "clues" in and on itself? For example, hair/eye color is NOT THAT important after all, neither is a character that ended up being killed in the series, or a scene that gets quite some pages is the book but got cut off on TV...

I know that I probably could have been more clear with this post, but as I said before, English is not my mother language, so... Sorry!

[James Arryn]

I love when people apologize for impeccable English by saying it's not their native tongue.

I think we English speakers are lazy as hell.

As far as answering your question, his consultant role and script/series thing certainly suggests that what he sees as core story lines won't be contradicted, but on the other hand they can use creative licence to return to the story line they depart just as easily as leaving it.

For example, let's say that Howland Reed is essential to GRRM's final play, he could never appear in the series and have his 'importance' fulfilled by the Greatjon or whatever. It might not make sense to us, details wise, bit it might be able to accomplish the final goal and be made to make sense within the tv plot.

And the impression I get is that they certainly know a lot. I'm pretty sure Sean Bean knows who Jon's father is, for example, and he's likely to have less overall grasp than the producers/directors.

[Woman of War]

There may be hints, for example I have always asssumed - having started the series on TV before reading - that Tyrion is not a secret Targ. Otherwise they would have emphasized the light strands in his hair and maybe given contact lenses with two different colours to him.

[Night Gathers]

I mean, they are simply showing us a song of ice and fire on television. They are not telling us that Bran has blue eyes and Jon has grey, it doesn't truly matter. They could have picked a Kit Harrington with blond hair for all I know, even though most fans would be devastated. It won't change Jon's storyline or anyone else's. The main thing is that they're showing us the whole story and not leaving out important factors. The thing you mentioned with the dragon eggs not burning, it has no significance whatsoever to the story itself as I remember, it was just something they didn't do.  

The only thing I'm worried about would be if they chose to skip important scenes, which we've seen that they have in Season 2. But naturally, they can't make every scene.
What I'm trying to say is; the directors won't choose their own path with the show, they'll stay faithful to George's work but add/remove certain things which they feel match the screen better.

Edited by Night gathers, 17 May 2012 - 04:22 AM.

[GoodGuyA]

Everyone needs to stop shouting about the contacts. I've used them for performances too. They're irritating as hell to the wrong people, and I can't imagine doing it on locations where the environments are there to constantly berate you as well.

[Arkash]

Well, all those minor changes, as I always said are not important, the core of the story, its pure essence is still there, the show is heading the same direction, so far, there has been no change that really drasticly change the story, except maybe for the Reeds, and it can be catchable (English not being my native tongue too, I dont know if saying "catchable" is correct)... as for the rest, I still consider having the same story, but with some improvements for TV.

The only change I wish wasnt done (not that it is a bad one but I prefered it in the books) is with Ygritte capturing Jon. I wish that, even with the two episodes with Ygritte, in the end, Jon let her go, finds back Qhorin, they run alone into the wild, followed by the eagle, loosing their companions and finally are caught back by Rattleshirt... yes, in the end, I'm sure we will have Qhorin's last order, but damn, it was so much epic in the book, this long run into the unknown.

[sennahoj]

I must say that the change with Jon and Ygritte could work in favour of future events on the wall. It gives the suspicion about Jon's loyalties some more substance, as well as his readiness to join forces with the wildlings eventually. Jon starting to respect the free people simply starts earlier on the series, by way of Jon's interaction with Ygritte rather than later on with Mance.
And to bring this back to the original topic: The main plot points are1) Jon pretending to join the Wildlings, 2) Jon gaining some respect for them, 3) Jon returning to Castle Black to defend the Wall against the Wildlings, 4) Jon deciding to take in the Wildlings to man the other towers of the Wall.
If the writers believe they have to deviate from the books to make this journey more believable on screen, then let them try. I for one enjoyed the changes so far. Jon chasing Ygritte across the glaciers of Iceland was a sight to behold.

[unRobert]

Yes, I've been thinking that we can get a lot of hints from the TV show as to the upcoming plots. Sadly, most of these are of the type: There's no Shireen. So, the idea that she could end up on the throne, or playing any role is ruined, unless they introduce her later after that Mel dialogue with Stannis Jefferson that mentions only stillborns. For that matter, patchface.

I think as the show deviates further in plot we'll begin to see the picture it's trying to create, and how some of the endings/plotlines we imagine will not happen.

Edited by unRobert, 17 May 2012 - 09:30 AM.

[Dagmer Cleftballs]

unRobert, on 17 May 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

Yes, I've been thinking that we can get a lot of hints from the TV show as to the upcoming plots. Sadly, most of these are of the type: There's no Shireen. So, the idea that she could end up on the throne, or playing any role is ruined, unless they introduce her later after that Mel dialogue with Stannis Jefferson that mentions only stillborns. For that matter, patchface. I think as the show deviates further in plot we'll begin to see the picture it's trying to create, and how some of the endings/plotlines we imagine will not happen.

It's been reported elsewhere that Shireen is being cast for season 3. I suspect much of the Stannis' family storyline will be there, giving him more to do before he goes north. After his defeat at KL, he will be regrouping and hopefully we'll get some interesting division between the "queen's men" and those, like Davos, who'd prefer to fight on without Melisandre. And Shireen and Patchface could still end up ruling Westeros (which BTW is not my preferred ending).

[Sofia Aillard]

Well, the show has to be a source for it's own, right? I mean, people that only follow the show and never read (nor will ever read) the books, have to able to figure stuff out for themselves. Sure D&D can put things that never happened in the books to make an explanation, or as James told me, maybe put Greatjon to do Howland Reed. Fine, but D&D have to achieve some milestones, at least! And how to achieve those milestones in the show x in the books is what I'm interested in!

We already know D&D know who are Jon's parents. So it's safe to assume they know much more then us, plus, they have GRRM on their pay roll to ask if anything they are doing is completely preposterous... Like kill Tyrion!

What didn't they changed? Among the "little" things like the relationship between Tywin and Arya, how Xaro Xhoan Daxos looks, how Littlefinger tells everybody everything (haha), the obviousness of the gay relationship between Renly and Loras and so on. But there are major changes too:

1- Talisa.
2- THE REEDS!!!! Who is going to tell Bran about the tournament??? Osha will leave him and Hodor with Coldhands and take Rickon to Skagos???
3- Jon witnessing Craster "sacrificing" his son.  
4- I found this: "

Like, shouldn't it be a bigger deal that an actual White Walker came within yards of the Night's Watch's expeditionary force? Couldn't he have just skipped the baby and

killedthe freaking Lord Commander in his sleep a few yards away

instead?"

There are probably others that I can't remember...

Anyway... Loved the dragonapping thing! Finely seeing D&D as die hard fans after all!

EDIT: Just remembered this one... Fine, so Jon isn't with Sam to find the dragonglass dagger and the horn... But Sam WILL find it, yes? Because, if he never finds it, then all the theories of it being Joramun's horn will go down the drain.

Edited by Sofia, 17 May 2012 - 10:43 AM.

[gogorath]

Sofia, on 29 April 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

Fist thread, so bare with me? I was wondering how much we can "trust" the series as a source to the story... I have been told that Dan and David can do whatever they want and that GRRM has told them things they shouldn't do, but they did anyway (kill Mago). BUT I don't think that they would do whatever they want, really! Being realistic, I think we all understand productions costs and that they can't follow every little detail that there is written in the books. And let's face it, GRRM likes to write! The guy can fill pages and pages (not that this is a bad thing!!!) with descriptions and characters that are not important to the main plot that, if followed to the letter (haha), would make the budget to an already costly series simply impossible! So David and Dan change a few things here and there... (like the eggs not burning Dany scene). IN THE MEANTIME, I read that GRRM is not really concerned with "simple" things like the color of someone's hair... So Jon's eyes are not grey, Brandon's eyes are not blue as they should be (having a "mother" and a "father" with blue eyes), Melisandre's are not red (so disappointing!!! Come on... A red lens is not expensive!!!), Tyrion's hair is not platinum, Mago probably won't return... (http://samthielman.b...r-r-martin.html) So it got me thinking that Dan and David CAN ALREADY KNOW the final destination and the landmarks to reach each day... Although they may not know the adventures GRRM decides to take along the journey. All that for this: >> Can the things that actually make the cut for the TV series count as "clues" in and on itself? For example, hair/eye color is NOT THAT important after all, neither is a character that ended up being killed in the series, or a scene that gets quite some pages is the book but got cut off on TV... I know that I probably could have been more clear with this post, but as I said before, English is not my mother language, so... Sorry!

I don't think so, because D&D can write around the change if they have to.  For example, Mago does play a role in the Winds of Winter.  If D&D get there, they'll likely just invent a new Dothraki.  If we had used his death -- or Irri's, or whomever's -- as a guide that that character is not important... well, we'd have been wrong about Mago, right?  He is important.  And still D&D killed him off.  They knew the fact that that Mago was dead was not important, because they could replace him.  But that doesn't mean Mago won't play a major role in the books.

I think if something enormous happened to a major character -- a Stark, Tyrion, Jaime -- it'd be a sign.  If Dany died in the House of the Undying next episode and stayed dead, I suppose it might be a clue.  

But smaller changes than that are easy to write around.

[gogorath]

Sofia, on 17 May 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

Well, the show has to be a source for it's own, right? I mean, people that only follow the show and never read (nor will ever read) the books, have to able to figure stuff out for themselves. Sure D&D can put things that never happened in the books to make an explanation, or as James told me, maybe put Greatjon to do Howland Reed. Fine, but D&D have to achieve some milestones, at least! And how to achieve those milestones in the show x in the books is what I'm interested in! We already know D&D know who are Jon's parents. So it's safe to assume they know much more then us, plus, they have GRRM on their pay roll to ask if anything they are doing is completely preposterous... Like kill Tyrion! What didn't they changed? Among the "little" things like the relationship between Tywin and Arya, how Xaro Xhoan Daxos looks, how Littlefinger tells everybody everything (haha), the obviousness of the gay relationship between Renly and Loras and so on. But there are major changes too: 1- Talisa. 2- THE REEDS!!!! Who is going to tell Bran about the tournament??? Osha will leave him and Hodor with Coldhands and take Rickon to Skagos??? 3- Jon witnessing Craster "sacrificing" his son. 4- I found this: "

Like, shouldn't it be a bigger deal that an actual White Walker came within yards of the Night's Watch's expeditionary force? Couldn't he have just skipped the baby and

killedthe freaking Lord Commander in his sleep a few yards away

instead?"

There are probably others that I can't remember... Anyway... Loved the dragonapping thing! Finely seeing D&D as die hard fans after all! EDIT: Just remembered this one... Fine, so Jon isn't with Sam to find the dragonglass dagger and the horn... But Sam WILL find it, yes? Because, if he never finds it, then all the theories of it being Joramun's horn will go down the drain.

For example, if there's no horn in the dragonglass cache, that doesn't mean Sam can't find it later.  Or the horn appear elsewise.  If Joramun's horn plays a role, and there's no horn here, they'll have it come back into the story later.  I doubt Sam or Jon or Ghost finding it is all that relevant.

[Sofia Aillard]

gogorath, on 17 May 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

I don't think so, because D&D can write around the change if they have to. For example, Mago does play a role in the Winds of Winter. If D&D get there, they'll likely just invent a new Dothraki. If we had used his death -- or Irri's, or whomever's -- as a guide that that character is not important... well, we'd have been wrong about Mago, right? He is important. And still D&D killed him off. They knew the fact that that Mago was dead was not important, because they could replace him. But that doesn't mean Mago won't play a major role in the books. I think if something enormous happened to a major character -- a Stark, Tyrion, Jaime -- it'd be a sign. If Dany died in the House of the Undying next episode and stayed dead, I suppose it might be a clue. But smaller changes than that are easy to write around.

Like I said... "Kill Tyrion!"

gogorath, on 17 May 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

For example, if there's no horn in the dragonglass cache, that doesn't mean Sam can't find it later. Or the horn appear elsewise. If Joramun's horn plays a role, and there's no horn here, they'll have it come back into the story later. I doubt Sam or Jon or Ghost finding it is all that relevant.

Of course he can find the horn later but once he is out of there, he is not going to go back for at least more 3 books, right? How the show viewers are going to figure it out (if, of course, it is in fact Joramun's horn)? Anyway, if he doesn't find the horn is fine, but what about the dragonglass? He won't kill the Other, er sorry WW, (and that's a whole other issue)?

I'm watching the show with someone that never read the books... Although it only took the departing scene for him to ask me if Jon is reeeeally Ned's son, there a bunch of other stuff that he missed... Simply because "our" clues aren't there! And no, I'm not saying that all clues should be there... Like I said, it would be impossibly expensive... just not so little.

Maybe I'm wrong, but feels like the series is very "future orientated" and half of the fun is the books has been finding out the past!

But hey, that's just IMHO.

[Menos Grande]

I've read that they already know how it ends, as precaution if George dies before the series ends. It's good, and essential to Know that George planned the end and is only struggling in getting there... I think is safe to think that "even though the series don't give us all the story, It will give us all the important details to the end, who gets the throne, and the end of the main characters.. at least the POV ones". Seeing the first season I didn't worry as it hadn't any major changes, but the second is full of changes... Dany/Jon/Bran plots will have to be corrected by the end of season... The game of thrones in Quart will change the situation of the Kingdom that Dany will make in the future, Jon need to talk to Halfhand before he kills him, Bran didn't got the reeds... But I still put my faith in the series.

[eyeheartsansa]

The way I see it..

there is Book Westeros and TV Westeros.. they are two alternate dimensions that are mostly the same but have a number of divergences.

There are some things in TV Westeros may or may not have happened in Book Westeros off-page, like Margery saying she wants to be THE queen.  TV Westeros is not 'canon,' but it just might give us some insight into Book Westeros that we might not have otherwise had.

Ultimately TV Westeros is its own thing and will have its own 'canon' that can be internally consistent even though it doesn't jive with the books.

The important thing is that it gives fans - readers and viewers alike - plenty to discuss.

[GoodGuyA]

eyeheartsansa, on 18 May 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

There are some things in TV Westeros may or may not have happened in Book Westeros off-page,

I feel like this is actually what people demand out of the series. With adapting this story they didn't want to just see the story itself, they wanted to see so many radical new things just so that they could have their questions answered. Remember the whole shouting about the Tower of Joy? That's why I truly think that is. It's not that they believe it's so utterly important, but they want to know so badly of what went on there.

There are certainly instances where this could add to the story. Take the Iron Islands, for example, in between COK and AFFC. There's a lot going on there and it would be foolish to leave it out completely both from a TV standard and in terms of exploring the material. In other ways though, people expect far too much to be delved into and yet still complete the storylines each season, like the Qarth stuff. It's really just not that important to the material, and we need to realize that no matter how much we like certain parts.

[Sofia Aillard]

eyeheartsansa, on 18 May 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

The way I see it.. there is Book Westeros and TV Westeros.. they are two alternate dimensions that are mostly the same but have a number of divergences.

TV Westeros is not 'canon,' but it just might give us some insight into Book Westeros that we might not have otherwise had.  

  Loved the way you put it!!!

Sofia, on 29 April 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

  So it got me thinking that Dan and David CAN ALREADY KNOW the final destination and the landmarks to reach each day...  

I read GRRM describing how the books are like a journey to him. Like when you begin knowing where it will end and what milestone you'll need to reach, but the nice thing about the journey is the adventures you take along the way.

I was just thinking that although D&D are taking some different routes, they may know where the journey is going to end. And if they do, maybe they are not as careful as to hide the destination as GRRM... Or even the adventures they choose to take can lead us to clues as to where they are going.

Like when they decided not to use "The Others" and went with White Walkers. People immediately asked why, since they are not the same in the books. In Wiki, they say that it may or may not have been to differentiate from Lost. They didn't answer, but a lot of people thought that that was a clue.

Anyways... James already had me convinced. I just thought that smarter people then me could find out (different) clues in D&D's decisions...

[BlackTalon]

Sofia, on 29 April 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

Fist thread, so bare with me?

James Arryn, on 29 April 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

I love when people apologize for impeccable English by saying it's not their native tongue.

I must admit when I read the first line I wondered what this thread would be about ...

Edited by BlackTalon, 20 May 2012 - 01:52 PM.