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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

A Man Without Honor Game of Thrones HBO EP207 Book Spoilers

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#41 dark sister

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:28 PM

Even though I am really happy that GOT was made into a series, I think that Benioff&Weiss have unfortunately bit off more than they could chew. Here's why:

In season 1, there were less characters, and although there was still a lot of background that made the story complicated and perhaps a bit difficult to understand for non-readers, it worked. (Background info such as CotF, First Men, Andals, Targaryen history, the many gods in the series are what I am referring to.) What helped make season 1 more cohesive was the fact that Ned Stark was the center of the storm, so to speak. He was the loveable patriarch of a noble family and most of the events derived from him -- Robert's offering him the position of Hand, which meant that his queen and Jaime were in Winterfell, etc. etc. Ned's BEING THERE set off a bunch of chain reactions, and once he agreed to be Robert's Hand, all the plotting started.

The only characters who were not really surrounding Ned Stark in the plot were Viserys and Dany. They were also separated geographically. However, the writers did a good job of explaining why they were in exile and what they were trying to accomplish.

Once Ned was executed, all hell broke loose, and I mean that in a couple of ways. Firstly, people who hadn't read the books were shocked and pissed that the "main character" of the series had been killed. Secondly, it accelerated the War of the 5 Kings. Thirdly, and most importantly, I observed a splintering effect of the storyline - now, instead of a plot that is very textured/includes subplots, but is basically still about Ned and his family (as well as Dany) it became a hundred different storylines.

One thing that struck me forcefully was how much each episode of season 2 skips around. In the first season, each episode seemed like it spent much more time on each character, and the cut from one scene to another was seamless and well-segued. This season, it runs sort of like this: two minutes with Theon hunting the boys - cut - one minute with Bran/Rickon/Osha/Hodor going towards a village - cut - Dany trying to find her dragons for two minutes - cut - Sansa talking with the Hound for 1 minute - cut - Arya and Tywin Lannister talking for 3 minutes (incredibly uncharacteristically, btw -- he even smiles a couple of times) - cut - Sansa gets her period and talks with Cersei for two minutes - cut - Jaime maunders on with a character - Alton?? - who wasn't in the books for four minutes, strangles him and a Karstark son, escapes - cut - Tyrion and Cersei have a heart-to-heart even though Tyrion has already delivered the infamous line of "your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth"....um, what? - cut - etc. etc. etc.

I didn't want to generalize before I had seen more than half of series 2, but this fragmented style of filming book 2 is disorienting and annoying. I understand that this might seem natural because there are 5 kings in the land, so naturally everyone will be all over the place, but what happens when even more characters are added as the series progresses? Will we only see half a minute of each character, unable to savor the longer interactions we enjoyed in season 1? It appears that although the adaptation of the books to TV is well-intentioned, there might be an inevitable downward spiral of fragmentation because of the growing cast, the growing complexity of the plot, and the unnecessary scenes they add to the show. (Perfect example: why on earth did they steal Dany's dragons? If they hadn't made that decision, there would have been extra time to use for longer scenes with the characters.)

Aside from that, my opinion of episode 7 is much like it has been for all the other episodes thus far -- I am left dissatisfied (unfortunately). The only high point for me was John & Ygritte's interactions. I love the actress playing her - she's got her character spot-on and even though in the book I always HATED it when she said "you know nothing, Jon Snow", I thought the way she delivered that line was absolutely fantastic. Grim, and not playful as I had always imagined.

Edited by dark sister, 15 May 2012 - 10:21 AM.


#42 Laohu

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:29 PM

What did Dagmer show Theon before they ordered Maester Luwin to be sent back to Winterfell? It looked like walnut shells - ones that Rickon would throw to the side after snacking.

Oh yea, eery music at the conclusion, which set the mood perfectly.

More deviations from the book obviously, but I am not going to complain about any of them. Terrific episode.

#43 Bride of Winter

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:31 PM

I admit I was really hesitant at first, but I'm so glad everything's coming into place with Robb and Catelyn's storyline (and downfall). Jeyne is obviously going to reveal herself as Jeyne soon (hbo's so cut-happy, they wouldn't include the Crag unless it had a major purpose), we have a very angry Karstark, a build-up with Jaime, and "Bran" and "Rickon" dead.

I'm going to sound really nitpicky here - but Robb and Jeyne must sleep together in the next episode. I'm fine with them taking time to build their relationship in the first place, but Bran and Rickon's deaths has to be the catalyst. It's what set everything into motion. Some pre-existing feelings is fine, but their marriage has to be on a whim right after they have sex, which was also on a whim. I'm just kind of worried because it wasn't in the preview for the next episode, but they showed them kissing in the general s2 previews /dunno.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dunno:' />

Same goes with Cat and Jaime. I'm actually not fond of them making Cat contemplate freeing Jaime before her kids are killed, but whatever. I'm convinced they're gonna get this one right though.

Edited by Bride of Winter, 13 May 2012 - 09:32 PM.


#44 axels15

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:31 PM

They are taking a lot of liberties, but I still think the episode works overall. Honestly, the only change that worries me is why Jon will kill the Halfhand... they can't change something so fundamental to his character, right?

Other Changes: The timing (and therefore reason) of Cat freeing Jaime. In the books, she learns that two of her sons (Bran and Rickon) are "Dead" and in a fit of motherly rage(?), she frees Jaime in order to broker a deal with the imp to free her daughters.

In the show, she does it before learning of Bran and Rickon, and does so because she knows Jaime will be killed (Which would spell the deaths her daughters, without a doubt). So, I don't have a problem with it. Both choices were fueled by motherly tendencies, and so the basis is intact. It just makes her a little worse, cause she doesn't have the excuse of grief.

Jaime killing his cousin - Don't really have any issue with it, because it will make his redemption that much more important to viewers, which I'm sure is what they were going for. Also, he's been in like, 2 episodes, they needed to give him an extended scene so the audience didn't forget about him.

The Dragon storyline continues to change. Again, I have no issue with this. Her story in the book is, imo, kinda uninteresting until the house of the undying, and by then it's almost "what's the point?" Now there is a point! The whole thing with Xaro betraying her to be king, that's weird, but it certainly fits in with the character they've made him into, so consistency.

And, as I mentioned, Jon Snow. Captured by Wildlings, somewhat early and without the Halfhand. It looked in the scenes from next week like he might attempt an escape, which would then allow him to get back to the halfhand, and then would lead everything up as it should be. If he stays with the Wildlings, though, then it becomes another issue. It'll be interesting to see where they go with it, but I do hope they don't drastically change his character.

Things I liked:

The Arya/Tywin scene was spectacular, as always. It does require some suspension of disbelief that Tywin would simply strike up conversations with his serving girl, but once you get past that, it's a wonderful scene, with not a little bit of snark. I will be disappointed when the opportunity for them to be together ends.

Theon's scenes - He's really a great actor, though I imagine everyone who haven't read the books are really going to be calling for his blood after this episode. One thing I will say is that it could have been slightly more obvious who the hanging bodies were supposed to be — Both my father and my friend, who haven't read the books, asked me who the hanging, charred bodies were, because he never really says their names. I had to deadpan and say Bran and Rickon without giving up any spoilers. That was REALLY difficult, I'm not the best at poker.

Jaime/Cat scene - While for one reason or another, Jaime's first scene didn't do it for me (probably because he's one of my favorite characters and I prefer "Redeemed Jaime," his scene with Cat was perfect. The quips about Brienne were especially funny and I can't wait for them to get more screen time together.

Sansa/Shae - I'm well aware how much of a hated character Shae is by many of the book readers, but I thought this scene was pretty damn good. Sansa's horror at having her first "flowering" was a stronger reason than in the books (coming from a male, so please don't kill me if I'm a bit off) And Shae is become more of a 'real' character in my mind, which will make her betrayal in the end so much more important (although also slightly strange, because why protect sansa but betray tyron? This will have to be adressed)

Ygritte - Favorite part of the show right now. She's just really outstanding, and while I am worried about what's going on with Jon's story, I can't say that I don't enjoy the extra time she is getting to spend with him. Imo, she's rivaling Peter Dinklage in humor (who strangely didn't get a lot of screen time today)

Honestly, nothing stood out to me as something I didn't like. Except maybe Dany's scene with Mormont. I know she's in grieving, but honestly, to me she sounds like a spoiled brat. This probably has to do with me not really liking her character in general. I'd love to hear other opinions on this, because maybe I'm not being fair to her?

I have a few worries of where the show will end up, but they're minor. I'm loving the show and I can't wait to see where it goes from here!

Edited by axels15, 13 May 2012 - 09:32 PM.


#45 NedFlanderStark

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:31 PM

Awesome episode, thought all the Winterfell, Catelyn/Jaime and Qarth scenes were all really well done. Whoever the actress is that plays Ygritte is doing a fantastic job

#46 Triskele

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:32 PM

Michelle Fairley is so awesome. I know that a lot of people didn't like her as the choice originally, but she owns on screen as Cat.

Trebs - You bring your lewd comments last week and now you do a victory dance? How dare you, Ser? /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

I am still torn on Jaime's killing of Alton. Here is why. Yes, Jaime has done some things that have earned him his repute. He is The Kingslayer, after all. And he pushed Bran Stark from a window. But the first act was arguably a noble act (loved his thing tonight about how you have to break vows to follow other vows), and the Bran incident was understandable to some degree however distasteful. But tonight's killing felt different and not something I'm sure our Jaime would really do. Now he's a kinslayer too. Sure, you could come up with motivations like captivation, desperation, etc., to use to compare it to the Bran incident. But it just feels different to me.

#47 mafalda

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:32 PM

Okay. This episode was bad.

I'm not just saying that because they strayed from the books big time. If you're gonna stray, replace it with something interesting.

I'd like to start off with where is Varys? We've seen him maybe once this season. I miss the Spider! Also, they've been showing a lot of Robb's camp, but where is the Greatjon?? He was hilarious last season!

And where'ssss Ramsay? Theon flayed, er... burned the children without him! We got the green light from Roose, but where is the bastard of Bolton??

I don't even know what to discuss. Nothing happened in this episode. Transition episode I suppose. If Dany doesn't hurry up and get into the House of the Undying I'm going to scream! Because it looks like in next week's episode she'll still be wandering around, wondering what to do. And she acts like a real brat in the show. I'm curious about Doreah's whereabouts, and what role she had in Dragongate.

Tywin and Arya. Yes, the acting is great, but it's starting to become a little unbelievable at this point. The endless chatting was enough, but Tywin feeding Arya? Strange.

Sansa's flowering. Sigh. Um, why would the Hound just be hanging around Sansa's room in the morning? I mean I get that he comes to her room at the end, but it just seemed strange in that moment. And I get the feeling he wouldn't snitch on her, because it's obvious he feels something for her. Shae running around protecting Sansa. Whatever. How difficult would it have been to have one of her other handmaids walk in and find her then tell the Queen?

Did I miss something? was that Cleos Frey that Jaime killed?

Talisa seems reluctant to go to the Crag... Hmm....

I'm interested in seeing what they're doing with Jon here. I just want to know how the whole "I'm gonna kill Qhorin because he told me to so I can join Mance and spy on the wildlings" ordeal is gonna work, because I don't think he's had that conversation with Qhorin yet, has he?

I'm normally not one of those people who come on here and bitch about the episodes, but I just feel like this one definitely wasn't one of my favorites.

Goodnight.

#48 Howling Mad

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:33 PM

Jaime steals the show arguing with Cat, bravo.

Arya and Tywin = perfection. Too bad it can't last.

Cersei with a conscience who knew.

#49 towerofjoy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:33 PM

My husband, non-book reader and casual watcher, figured out immediately they weren't the boys. When I asked where he thought they were, he didn't have a clue but figures they'd be pretty obvious out on the road.

I like the Qarth changes, makes it more interesting. Cersei being so honest with Tyrion was a surprise but it won't last o course. Jon running around with his blue boys and Ygritte is somewhat annoying but a good set up for the next season or two.

I can't quite figure out the Jeyne/talisa thing but think she's up to no good. Wonder if she'll have a change of heart later on and feel horrible about RW.

And like the Tywin/Arya dynamic - and good to see Arya hasn't gone all Stockholm-y. Unlike her sister she knows better than to trust people just because they aren't threatening to rape/beat/kill her at every turn.

#50 axels15

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:33 PM

It did. Are we sure there is an episode 10?


imdb shows ten episodes. They prob just made a mistake

#51 Laohu

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:34 PM

Cheese Pudding, regarding Tyrion's chain, I cannot possibly foresee them including it in the battle. There is absolutely no setup for it whatsoever, and that is really a shame. I wished to see some of Tyrion's tactical brilliance come to life.

#52 Warden of the North121

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:35 PM

Regarding Qhorin and Jon:

My theory is that the Lord of Bones captures Qhorin too and while they're captive and alone Qhorin knows they're *beep* so he tells Jon to pretend to go turncloak and suggest they face off. This could either turn out to be a really good change or a disastrous one.

#53 Christina Ceriddwynn

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:35 PM

hmmm well they have changed up Danys story! Granted her story bored me to death in the books so I dont care.
I am wondering what is up with Tywin and Arya as well and wondering if we are going to miss out on Weasel Soup /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' />
Tywin needs to be leaving soon so Roose can arrive!

Jon and Ygritte....well ok so a change but they seem to be investing a lot of time into them when I think that time should be spent on other characters.

Sansa.....well not exactly the serpentine steps or a rooftop but....at least she is interacting with the Hound! I died when they had him standing in her bedroom with her first period....omg.....

what's up with the shae/sansa friendship, though?? and when is sansa going to meet dontos in the godswood?

#54 Bastard of Boston

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:36 PM

Jamie finally gets something to do! As does Rickon. I wonder if the two actors practiced lines together to make sure their performances in this episode were extra special. I appreciated the reminder that Jamie exists, and I liked how they were able to portray how much of a likeable asshole he is. Alton Lannister, you died so that Jamie Lannister could be awesome. I'm sure you understand.

This does create a dilemma, though. As much as the sadist in me liked the tactic, this muddies up his whole redemption thing. Oops. Then again, we're talking about a man who pushes children out windows, so...

Enjoyed how Jon was essentially Ygritte's prisoner long before Jon was actually her prisoner. Talk about cruel and unusual punishment. Yeah, I'm going to like Ygritte much more on the show. I didn't even want to kill myself when she said, "You know nothing, Jon Snow." That right there is a huge personal triumph for me. Should I just make my Skeletor joke now, or wait until next week?

Tywin comparing Arya to Cersei was very interesting. After I got done laughing, I actually gave it some thought. I suppose there's something to it, ya know, once you get over the whole "Cersei is a psychotic bitch who sleeps with her brothers and cousins...maybe mother, if she wasn't dead" thing. They also found a way to include a bunch of nice background on Harrenhal and Aegon -- book readers everywhere shouted at the TV, "I totally knew that! I bet you don't know who the second Targaryen King was, show!" And, I appreciated the fact that Arya's deception isn't totally one-sided and that Tywin is, at least, noting all of her inconsistencies. I choose to believe that he's playing along...for now.

Tyrion was surprisingly absent tonight, but loved the awkward moment with Cersei..."...am I supposed to hug you right now? Because I really don't want to do that. Maybe if I...pat her on the back? Damn it, the window closed...think I'll just leave."

Shot of Harrenhal was great...it's the first time it looked impressive to me. Still not as impressive as I imagined it to be, but at least it looks a bit more expansive than a medieval jungle gym.

Good that we're learning so much more about Quaithe than we have in the novels. For example, her hobbies. Besides being weird and creepy, she enjoys erotic body painting.

With the Crag being name-dropped, I'm going all in on Talisa = Jeyne.

Not sure how I feel about the Qarth developments...I may just let everyone else influence me on this -- all else fails, popular opinion is the best way to go. I kind of slept through Dany Does Qarth in the books...up until the House of the Undying, anyway. The assasination scene was pretty damn awesome. Pyat Pree's got style.

Edited by Bastard of Boston, 13 May 2012 - 10:37 PM.


#55 Istari

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:36 PM

New Mountain still disappoints me. Comes off as your average Lannister guard.


I agree. I think they've 'toned down' both Clegane brothers...

#56 mafalda

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:37 PM

The show is really deviating from the books. Jeyne Westerling is worth losing a kingdom over.



Lolol!
Oh and what do they mean two episodes left? I thought we had three??

#57 Bride of Winter

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:37 PM

With my Robb centric post aside (he's my favorite and thus requires entire posts for my nitpicking), here are some more of my thoughts

- despite the lack of Ramsay/Reek, the Winterfell scenes continue to be mindblowing. Alfie's acting is amazing, and the eerie music is perfect.

- Ygritte's fabulous. Maybe I have a bit of a bias since I've always liked her, but I have absolutely nothing to complain about. Which is pretty much unheard of for me.

- Cersei's scenes were so off

- Tywins were kind of out of character, but unlike Cersei's, I think they were for the better.

- I don't even know what's going on in Dany's storyline anymore. I don't like the idea of the undying being """bad""" and stealing the dragons. I just know they're going to make her come out of this mess a hero /stillsick.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':stillsick:' />

#58 Isabella Stark

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:38 PM

I like the "new" Quarth storyline. It's more interesting and I like the way Dany is being used in some other place's "game of thrones." (As I understand the scheme, Xaro stole the dragons for the warlocks in exchange for their assistance making him king. I'm unclear as to whether this is intended to pressure Dany into marrying him or something.) I really appreciate that they're creating a stronger motivation for Dany to go to the HOTU. I didn't really buy that in the books.

I enjoyed the interactions between Jon and Ygritte and I think those actors have really good chemistry together. Should be great for next season. However, I am concerned about losing the Jon fighting Qhorin part. I really liked that. The episode description for Ep 10 says something like "Jon proves himself to Qhorin." Hopefully they're still getting to the same thing, just by a different route.

I hate hate hate hate Theon. And I think the show is handling his storyline wonderfully.

Really liked the Jamie scenes.

I enjoy the Arya-Tywin scenes, but am not sure I totally believe them. I actually bought Tywin being more familiar with a servant, on the theory that she's so far below him, he can just relax and open up with her. Don't entirely buy Tywin being familiar with a highly intelligent, Northern noble-born girl. Surely he'd be more suspicious of her and want to know exactly who she is. I don't know; maybe he thought he had time to catch her in more slip-ups and figure out who she was that way. (I think the making her eat bit was intended to see if she ate like a lady with utensils, as she did, or with her hands like a peasant.)

#59 Cheese Pudding

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:38 PM

Cheese Pudding, regarding Tyrion's chain, I cannot possibly foresee them including it in the battle. There is absolutely no setup for it whatsoever, and that is really a shame. I wished to see some of Tyrion's tactical brilliance come to life.


That's a shame, I was expecting it so much, and it would be a massive ending to the season.

Oh, there's something I forgot to say in my previous post. Did Arya asked Jaqen to kill Tywin? The preview led me to believe in that, hope I'm wrong.

#60 congokong

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:42 PM

This season sucks. The only scene this episode that somewhat stuck to the books was the Sandor-Sansa chat. Everything else that I can recall is a strong deviation if not an entirely new scene.

What has happened to the show this year? This episode was unrecognizable from the books. 3 Jon/Ygritte scenes talking about balls and sex, a very long Jaime/Lionel(?) squire conversation, and... Wait. The problem is that I keep thinking they should be trying to stick to the excellent book material instead of crapping on it. That ship has sailed.



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