93 replies to this topic

[Ser Malthred Stark]

Recently, I have seen many posts claiming that the Targaryens are still the LAWFUL heirs/rulers of Westeros, however I don't see how this is true. Robert assumed the Iron Throne and overthrew the Targaryen dynasty, creating a new era of rulers (Baratheons). Why would the Targaryen conquest hold weight, but not the Baratheon conquest? There is thousands of years of history, pre-Targaryen conquest, that bred it's own heirs, why do these heirs not come into question, but post-Targaryen heirs do? My opinion is that it is related to the large amount of Dany fans, compared to the small percentage of Robert fans.

Let's take a look at the War of the Five Kings:
Renly Baratheon - The youngest brother of Robert Baratheon. (Invalid Claim)
Balon Greyjoy - The lord of a house that was formerly led by kings. (Semi Valid Claim---Not to the Iron Throne)
Robb Stark - The lord of a house formerly led by kings. (Semi Valid Claim---Not to the Iron Throne)
Joffrey/Tommen Lannister/Hill - The bastards of Jaime and Cersei Lannister. (Invalid Claim)
Stannis Baratheon - The younger of the king Robert Baratheon, who had no children. (Valid Claim)
Daenerys/Aegon Targaryen - The last of the overthrown Targaryens. (Invalid Claim)

The only people who have a current (semi)valid claim are:
Stannis Baratheon,
Balon Greyjoy, and
Robb Stark.
Stannis having the only claim to the Iron Throne. While there are some semi valid claims, Stannis' current claim (younger brother to the last king) trumps those claims, making him the only true lawful ruler.

Joffrey/Tommen have not successfully won the War of the Five Kings, so they are not yet the lawful rulers.

[Apple Martini]

I agree — the Targaryens stopped being the "legal" royal family when Robert & Co. deposed them and the lords of Westeros acknowledged and swore fealty to the Baratheons as the new royal family. Other than the difference between an outsider and an insider, I also don't see any legal or moral difference between what Robert did and what Aegon did. I'd actually argue that what Aegon did was worse — the families he overthrew had done nothing to wrong him, unlike what Aerys did to families in Westeros. But that's neither here nor there.

I also don't understand the argument that the Lannisters are the "new" royal family. Well, no. They wouldn't be the "new" royal family until the Westerosi lords acknowledged the Lannisters as the royal family. The people propping up Joffrey and now Tommen have no interest in making the children's parentage public; they're content to keep pretending that they're Baratheons. As long as the children's claim hinges on them being Baratheons, the Baratheons, not the Lannisters, are the "legal" royal family. And in that sense, Stannis is actually, at this point, the "rightful" king.

[dtones520]

From my understanding of the books, the lawful ruler of Westeros is the one who the church of the Seven recognizes as king. My understanding ofnthisncame from AFFC when Cersei is making a huge deal bout the high septon acknowledging Tommen.  Once Robert won the Throne the faith recognized him as the king, same as they did when Robert died and Joffrey became king (under false info). So, by my understanding, the Targs are now truly Usurpers, Stannis was a Usurper, etc.

I think that part of Cersei's bargain for the restoration of the Faith Militant was that the High Sparrow give Tommen his blessing, so Tommen is also legally king now. Unless he didn't actually go through with it. I can't remember.

Am I wrong in assuming that this is how it all works?

[Apple Martini]

dtones520, on 29 April 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

From my understanding of the books, the lawful ruler of Westeros is the one who the church of the Seven recognizes as king. My understanding ofnthisncame from AFFC when Cersei is making a huge deal bout the high septon acknowledging Tommen.  Once Robert won the Throne the faith recognized him as the king, same as they did when Robert died and Joffrey became king (under false info). So, by my understanding, the Targs are now truly Usurpers, Stannis was a Usurper, etc.

I think that part of Cersei's bargain for the restoration of the Faith Militant was that the High Sparrow give Tommen his blessing, so Tommen is also legally king now. Unless he didn't actually go through with it. I can't remember.

Am I wrong in assuming that this is how it all works?

The problem with that is, the Faith would be recognizing Tommen based on a lie — he's not a Baratheon, he's a bastard and he's a product of incest.

[oba]

Ser Malthred Stark, on 29 April 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

Recently, I have seen many posts claiming that the Targaryens are still the LAWFUL heirs/rulers of Westeros, however I don't see how this is true. Robert assumed the Iron Throne and overthrew the Targaryen dynasty, creating a new era of rulers (Baratheons). Why would the Targaryen conquest hold weight, but not the Baratheon conquest? There is thousands of years of history, pre-Targaryen conquest, that bred it's own heirs, why do these heirs not come into question, but post-Targaryen heirs do? My opinion is that it is related to the large amount of Dany fans, compared to the small percentage of Robert fans.

Let's take a look at the War of the Five Kings:
Renly Baratheon - The youngest brother of Robert Baratheon. (Invalid Claim)
Balon Greyjoy - The lord of a house that was formerly led by kings. (Semi Valid Claim---Not to the Iron Throne)
Robb Stark - The lord of a house formerly led by kings. (Semi Valid Claim---Not to the Iron Throne)
Joffrey/Tommen Lannister/Hill - The bastards of Jaime and Cersei Lannister. (Invalid Claim)
Stannis Baratheon - The younger of the king Robert Baratheon, who had no children. (Valid Claim)
Daenerys/Aegon Targaryen - The last of the overthrown Targaryens. (Invalid Claim)

The only people who have a current (semi)valid claim are:
Stannis Baratheon,
Balon Greyjoy, and
Robb Stark.
Stannis having the only claim to the Iron Throne. While there are some semi valid claims, Stannis' current claim (younger brother to the last king) trumps those claims, making him the only true lawful ruler.

Joffrey/Tommen have not successfully won the War of the Five Kings, so they are not yet the lawful rulers.

My only quibble is that Cersei's children are still Robert's legal heirs.  We know they're really not Robert's children, but, as far as Westerosi law is concerned, they are.  That means their claim does still carry a significant amount of weight, particularly as Stannis hasn't exactly won the War of the Five kings, either.

[Josephxoxo]

What about Gendry? I'm pretty sure he's the lawful heir to the seven kingdom's if he's the oldest son. Son's come before brothers of the king from what I read in ASOIAF.

[Kittyhat]

Ser Malthred Stark, on 29 April 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

Recently, I have seen many posts claiming that the Targaryens are still the LAWFUL heirs/rulers of Westeros, however I don't see how this is true. Robert assumed the Iron Throne and overthrew the Targaryen dynasty, creating a new era of rulers (Baratheons). Why would the Targaryen conquest hold weight, but not the Baratheon conquest? There is thousands of years of history, pre-Targaryen conquest, that bred it's own heirs, why do these heirs not come into question, but post-Targaryen heirs do? My opinion is that it is related to the large amount of Dany fans, compared to the small percentage of Robert fans.

Let's take a look at the War of the Five Kings:
Renly Baratheon - The youngest brother of Robert Baratheon. (Invalid Claim)
Balon Greyjoy - The lord of a house that was formerly led by kings. (Semi Valid Claim---Not to the Iron Throne)
Robb Stark - The lord of a house formerly led by kings. (Semi Valid Claim---Not to the Iron Throne)
Joffrey/Tommen Lannister/Hill - The bastards of Jaime and Cersei Lannister. (Invalid Claim)
Stannis Baratheon - The younger of the king Robert Baratheon, who had no children. (Valid Claim)
Daenerys/Aegon Targaryen - The last of the overthrown Targaryens. (Invalid Claim)

The only people who have a current (semi)valid claim are:
Stannis Baratheon,
Balon Greyjoy, and
Robb Stark.
Stannis having the only claim to the Iron Throne. While there are some semi valid claims, Stannis' current claim (younger brother to the last king) trumps those claims, making him the only true lawful ruler.

Joffrey/Tommen have not successfully won the War of the Five Kings, so they are not yet the lawful rulers.

Your entire argument is fundamentally self-defeating, as it's based on the assumption that the Baratheon claim is now valid simply because the Targaryens were overthrown.  If true, then that means any claim is valid if the claimant can successfully overthrow the current ruler.  Now that may well be -- and you seem to be making that case yourself in saying that it was also the Targaryen case -- and there's certainly an internal logic to that reasoning.

However, it also means your entire list is irrelevant and meaningless by your own argument.  What does it mean to call a claim "invalid" when anyone who can seize the throne is a valid claimant to it? Renly could have been the valid ruler if he'd won the throne ... Joffrey if he'd survived and successfully killed all of the other claimants ... and so on.  When "might makes right" is the order of the day, that applies across the board ... not just when you want it to apply.

Edited by Kittyhat, 29 April 2012 - 09:08 PM.

[Apple Martini]

^ It's not just overthrowing the old guy. It's also getting the other lords to agree that, yes, you are now the king and your dynasty is now the legal one. That recognition and fealty is just as important as overthrowing someone, because that is what gives you legitimacy. It's a contract — you're not the king or queen unless the lords agree with you that you are.

[James Arryn]

Apple Martini, on 29 April 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

^ It's not just overthrowing the old guy. It's also getting the other lords to agree that, yes, you are now the king and your dynasty is now the legal one. That recognition and fealty is just as important as overthrowing someone, because that is what gives you legitimacy. It's a contract — you're not the king or queen unless the lords agree with you that you are.

Exactly.

It seems that some people miss the significance of moments like where Joff demands _____ come and swear fealty.

That's important exactly because until ______ does so, he actually owes Joff none. He can be an enemy for failing to swear fealty, but he is in no way wrong, unlawful, treasonous, etc. He is just refusing to sign the contract.

[James Arryn]

Wait, this is confusing.

2 threads?

[Apple Martini]

James Arryn, on 29 April 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

Exactly.

It seems that some people miss the significance of moments like where Joff demands _____ come and swear fealty.

That's important exactly because until ______ does so, he actually owes Joff none. He can be an enemy for failing to swear fealty, but he is in no way wrong, unlawful, treasonous, etc. He is just refusing to sign the contract.

Thank you.

Robert could have shoved Aerys' corpse out of the way and sat his ass on the Iron Throne and said, "Yeah I'm the king now." But none of that meant squat until Westeros' lords swore fealty to him and to the Baratheon line. There's more to it than just "overthrowing" someone.

James Arryn, on 29 April 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

Wait, this is confusing.

2 threads?

Yeah it was a double post and both took off at the same time. Derp.

Edited by Apple Martini, 29 April 2012 - 09:16 PM.

[dtones520]

Apple Martini, on 29 April 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

The problem with that is, the Faith would be recognizing Tommen based on a lie — he's not a Baratheon, he's a bastard and he's a product of incest.

Right, but we know that. Not many people truly know it. So, as far as what is recognized is that Tommen and Myrcella are Baratheons. And I'm sure if the High Sparrowfinds out the truth, he will deal with the situation accordingly.

Edited by dtones520, 29 April 2012 - 09:18 PM.

[Apple Martini]

dtones520, on 29 April 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

Right, but we know that. Not many people truly know it. So, as far as what is recognized is that Tommen and Myrcella are Baratheons. And I'm sure if the High Sparrowfinds out the truth, he will deal with the situation accordingly.

A lot of people do know it and choose to ignore it (the Tyrells) or choose to stand against it (Stannis). I'd say at this point, most people in Westeros are in one of those two camps.

[James Arryn]

Apple Martini, on 29 April 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

Yeah it was a double post and both took off at the same time. Derp.

Yeah, but which one has claim?

NONE HAVE CLAIM!

ALL HAVE CLAIM!

NOW CUT YOUR HAIR FOR SOME REASON!


Edit: and this was a missed golden opportunity. If I'd have seen what was happening in advance, it would have been fun to vehemently argue alternate positions in each thread.

Edited by James Arryn, 29 April 2012 - 09:26 PM.

[Ser Malthred Stark]

I apologize as I have been very unclear on my message.
Let me clarify what point I am trying to convey:
When Robert rebelled, I would consider his claim as invalid, he is not the heir and has no blood relation to Aerys. However he succeeded in his rebellion, crushed the Targaryens, and made himself king. In other words, he overthrew the Targaryens and made a new line of kings. These claims are invalid, they are not based on any relation to the current ruling power (As Robert did) and the claim will be validated through conquest of the former ruling dynasty.
For example: I agree that if all of the Rebellions fail, then Tommen is the new 'lawful' king, however there are still many rebellions to be put down until I can view him as such.

Now, seeing Westeros (Excluding Dorne) as a Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture, the current heir to the throne is Stannis.

Edited by Ser Malthred Stark, 29 April 2012 - 09:48 PM.

[Kittyhat]

Apple Martini, on 29 April 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

^ It's not just overthrowing the old guy. It's also getting the other lords to agree that, yes, you are now the king and your dynasty is now the legal one. That recognition and fealty is just as important as overthrowing someone, because that is what gives you legitimacy. It's a contract — you're not the king or queen unless the lords agree with you that you are.

But that wasn't the argument the original poster was making.

If it's getting the other lords to agree that concerns you, then really Renly before Melisandre cheated by using magic shadow babies was the best and most valid claimant of them all! And Stannis is still among the least valid by this reasoning, even now, because basically people are only following him because there's nothing better readily available.  A lot of them would abandon him instantly at the first whisper of a Targaryen claimant, many of them because that's what they've been waiting for anyway.

So if you're making this argument, I guess you agree that Daenerys may be the most valid living claimant of them all after all? Oh my, but that doesn't sound like you at all.  

Edited by Kittyhat, 29 April 2012 - 09:43 PM.

[Howling Mad]

Apple Martini, on 29 April 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

The problem with that is, the Faith would be recognizing Tommen based on a lie — he's not a Baratheon, he's a bastard and he's a product of incest.

I agree, the problem however is proving the incest.  Us readers know Cersei's children are not products of the marriage bed but by and large the people of Westeros do not.  I doubt Jaime or Cersei are likely to confess anytime soon and until they do no one can disprove Tommen's parentage.

[Ser Malthred Stark]

Howling4Reed, on 29 April 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

I agree, the problem however is proving the incest.  Us readers know Cersei's children are not products of the marriage bed but by and large the people of Westeros do not.  I doubt Jaime or Cersei are likely to confess anytime soon and until they do no one can disprove Tommen's parentage.

I can see the Faith's examination now:
"Hmm...They don't have black hair...or blue eyes...SOLID EVIDENCE FOUND."

Edited by Ser Malthred Stark, 29 April 2012 - 09:51 PM.

[Apple Martini]

Kittyhat, on 29 April 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

But that wasn't the argument the original poster was making.

If it's getting the other lords to agree that concerns you, then really Renly before Melisandre cheated by using magic shadow babies was the best and most valid claimant of them all! And Stannis is still among the least valid by this reasoning, even now, because basically people are only following him because there's nothing better readily available.  A lot of them would abandon him instantly at the first whisper of a Targaryen claimant, many of them because that's what they've been waiting for anyway.

So if you're making this argument, I guess you agree that Daenerys may be the most valid living claimant of them all after all? Oh my, but that doesn't sound like you at all.  

I must have missed the part where every lord in Westeros declared Dany's claim to be the valid one. Or the part where she successfully overthrew Tommen and Stannis and everyone else. I thought she was still wandering aimlessly around the Dothraki Sea, talking to hallucinations. Huh. And I never made the claim that everyone recognized Stannis — obviously not all of them do. Just like not all of them recognize Joffrey, or Renly, or Robb, or Balon, or Tommen. But they have recognized the Baratheons, and Stannis is the rightful Baratheon heir. The obstacle is getting everyone else to recognize it, a threshold that, yes, you're right, Stannis has not yet met.

ETA: Dany and Viserys have been in Essos for years and everyone in Westeros knew they were alive and where they were. If they were truly gagging for a return to Targ rule, why didn't any of them make an effort to finance or support the Targ siblings in Essos? When push came to shove, even the Targaryen loyalists put up and shut up and made no real effort to reinstate the old dynasty. Unless you count the Martells' dusty marriage contract that no one's interested in honoring.

Edited by Apple Martini, 29 April 2012 - 10:08 PM.

[Howling Mad]

Ser Malthred Stark, on 29 April 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

I can see the Faith's examination now:
"Hmm...They don't have black hair...or blue eyes...SOLID EVIDENCE FOUND."

Fairly weak even for an inquisition