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[Book Spoilers] Nitpick without repercussion!


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130 replies to this topic

#1 teemo

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:39 PM

Since this went over so well last show, I thought I'd do it again. This is the thread where you can rant, whine, bitch and complain about anything you choose without being hassled. Comments like, "This is the show, not the book, stop complaining!" are not for here. Feel free to debate the accuracy of someone's rant, but nothing is too insignificant to be nitpicked at. We love this show, but it can be frustrating as hell sometimes. Even though the show isn't over as of now, I'll start:

-There are so many deviations from the book I am starting to get confused.
-COME ON??? THAT IS DAGMER CLEFTJAW?????

#2 CrypticWeirwood

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:32 AM

I can’t believe that they have Cersei making a trivial grammatical blunder. She said, “To whomever did it, I say well done.”

Obviously, that has to be whoever, since it’s the subject of the clause “whoever did it”.

I’d have though Cersei Lannister had better breeding than that. As it is, she just comes off as pretentious and stupid.

Perhaps that was the intent, but if so, it was surely lost on 99+% of the viewers. She should have used the right word, not the wrong one. How the hell did this broken line make it through production?

#3 Tourniquet

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:45 AM

The could have at least given Dagmer a scar...its obvious that he is a different character just retaining the same name...but scars are cool!

#4 CrypticWeirwood

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:53 AM

Both of Quaithe’s eyes are the same color. Guess she’s not Shiera Seastar after all.

Then again, based on that, Tyrion isn’t Tyrion either, since in the show he has matched eyes instead of unmatched ones.

#5 rmanoj

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:59 AM

I don't think that's a grammatical error. Saying ' "To" whomever' makes it an indirect object, therefore the oblique form "whom" is used.

#6 kungtotte

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:09 AM

I don't like the change to Dagmer either.

Dagmer is a well-known man on the Iron Islands. Theon knew him when he was a child on the islands, and he knows of his reputation. He is put on Theon's crew to give him at least one seasoned warrior, to make sure things go the way they're supposed to.

If they wanted TV-Dagmer to live up to this they should have fucked his face up somehow to make him very distinguishable, even if they can't go the full route of splitting his face in half, and also made it so Theon knew who he was. But since they didn't do any of this they might as well just have removed Dagmer from the story completely, would save a lot of troubles down the line. Non-readers wouldn't know the difference, and readers wouldn't feel let down.

#7 CrypticWeirwood

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:12 AM

I don't think that's a grammatical error. Saying ' "To" whomever' makes it an indirect object, therefore the oblique form "whom" is used.

No, no, no! That’s not right at all. The sentence is “To whomever did it, I say well done.” The object of the preposition to is the entire caluse whoever did it. Think of it as “to (whoever did it)”.

A relative pronoun in English always takes on the case of the function it serves within its dependent clause. The subject of that whole clause is whoever, just as that clause’s verb is did and its own object is it. You can’t be thrown off by the proximity of the preposition, because it governs the entire clause, not just the word following.

Trust me on this one. It’s basic English grammar.

Most people should never use whomever, because they nearly always use it incorrectly. Including Cersei. No one will ever laugh at you for using who when you should really be using whom, but using whom where who is called for is simply risible. It’s hypercorrective error that makes you look like a pretentious idiot.

Yup, that’s Cersei all right.

#8 Lady Sunrider

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:16 AM

'Whomever' is the object of the preposition 'to' and so is in the accusative case.
I just can't get past that awful dress they have Margery in. What is it? It's not historically inspired, I just can't imagine what they were thinking.

#9 Lebronn Jaime

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:23 AM

I can’t believe that they have Cersei making a trivial grammatical blunder. She said, “To whomever did it, I say well done.”

Analogous to "To whom it may concern". Cersei said it correctly.

#10 rmanoj

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:30 AM

I suppose you're right. I hadn't really thought too much about it. "Whomever" isn't something that comes up very much anyway.

#11 Tadco26

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:36 AM

Loras not even suspecting Brienne of killing Renly, when he is convinced she did it in the books and they even did his casting based on the confrontation from Feast. Loras also killed two of his sworn Rainbow Guard brothers in rage who were guarding outside the tent, where here is talked down from hurting an unarmed Littlefinger who is starting wedding negotiations with Margeary over Renly's corpse.
Brienne's first slaying of a man wasn't until Feast, where she slayed several of the guards here.

Davos is made admiral of Stannis's fleet, where Imry Florent, the queen's brother who has no experience as an admiral, leads the attack on Blackwater Bay. While Davos will no doubt be made to make the same mistakes in the show, in the book Davos is the one pointing out the mistakes Ser Imry is making in being over confident and not sending out any scouts or noticing the tower which holds the chain. Also Ser Imry keeps Salador's ships back because he does not trust them, when Davos feels this was a waste as these were some of the most experienced war time sailors.

Asha hasn't fit her book character so far. The Cleftjaw is the one suggesting they alter their raiding target, where in the books Theon is the one convincing him.

The cliff side approaches of the TV fist of the first men will make escaping from it when it is attacked problematic, as there appeared to be only one way in and out.

Qarth is almost completely original content. Xaro is not gay, and they didn't bring up how if they were married the bride and groom could ask for one gift of one another which could not be refused, with Xaro's being one of her dragons. One has to wonder if Dany might not have considered Xaro more seriously for marriage, if she thought he had any interest in her what so ever. Especially when he makes it seem much more so than the books that he would support her war effort. They also made Jorah Mormont seem like he was against bringing any foreign aid to conquer Westeros, when it was his idea to get the Unsullied.

With Arya as cupbearer to Tywin, it is pretty unlikely that he would have a percieved commoner speaking freely to his council, and even less likely that she could say something as pointed as the thinly veiled threat of "anyone can die" directed at him.

Likewise it seems pretty unlikely that Jaqen would offer her 3 deaths and Tywin wouldn't be the first name on her mind after having made that threat. In the books it is more plauseable because she has no contact at all with Tywin and only sees him from a distance, and then realizes she should have named him as he is leaving. Cheswick was her first death in the books, and the Tickler taking his place robs Arya of the moment when she does it herself in Storm of Swords, the whole "Is there gold in the village?" as she stabs him over and over. I understand that not even having named him as the Tickler until this episode and having his torture scenes so brief and non-graphic in nature he probably would not even be remembered by next season or two seasons from now. But it still is a bit disappointing. Perhaps Polliver will take his place in that scene.

Harrenhal is not nearly the hell it was for Arya, where she was constantly in danger, and stuck on manual labor duties scrubbing floors and what not. As the surprisingly friendly Tywin's cupbearer she argueably has it better than most of the commoners in the kingdom at this point. No Vargo Hoat and the Bloody Mummers certainly plays a role there, though I understand the casting costs for delaying their entrance to the story. Of course if they do cast them next season and if weasel soup still happens this season, then Vargo won't be changing sides in nearly the same manner.

No Reeds, Bran has the Green Dreams instead and Osha apparently is going to be the one interpretting them. Howland Reed was the only survivor of the Tower of Joy, and it appears that story line may be cut completely. No mention of Ramsay Snow yet, but it is still early. Still this would have seemed to be the perfect time to bring him up story line wise.

No Edric Storm. An understandable cut, but still this is one of the major tension points between Davos and Stannis in Storm, and the first time we learn of Melisandre's desire to sacrifice someone who has king's blood.

#12 CrypticWeirwood

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:42 AM

'Whomever' is the object of the preposition 'to' and so is in the accusative case.

No, it is not. You always have to look at the entire structure to determine what does what. The object of the proposition to is the entire clause whoever did it. The subject of that clause is whoever. Honest.

These are all correct:
  • Who showed up first? He showed up first.
  • I don’t know who showed up first.
  • Give it to whoever shows up first. He shows up first.
  • That’s the girl whom your wife likes best.
  • Give it to whomever your wife likes best.
  • Who is ready? He is ready.
  • Give it to whoever is ready.
  • Give it to whoever you think is ready. I think he is ready.
  • Give to whomever you think your wife likes best. Your wife likes him best.
  • Give to whoever you think your wife thinks is ready. Your wife thinks he is ready. He is ready.
  • Who will win? He will win.
  • That’s who will win.
  • I don’t know who will win.
  • I know whoever wins. I know he wins.
  • I know you like whoever wins the most. He wins the most.
  • I know you like whomever your wife likes. Your wife likes him.
In all situations, the relative pronoun assumes the proper case it satisfies within its own dependent clause. This is just how English works. To let oneself be tricked into using the wrong one out of mere proximity is the sort of blunder you see in “One of your best friends *are here.” Just because friends is plural doesn’t make the verb plural, because friends is not the subject of that verb. The subject is one so the verb must be is.

It’s deep structure that counts, not surface proximity. The object of the preposition to is the entire clause whoever did it; it is not whoever alone. That would strand the clause without a subject.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood, 30 April 2012 - 11:02 AM.


#13 CrypticWeirwood

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:49 AM

Analogous to "To whom it may concern". Cersei said it correctly.

Absolutely not. In “To whom it may concern”, the object of the preposition is not “whom”. It’s the entire clause “whom it may concern”. Rearrange that into “it may concern whom” and you see that the object of the verb is “whom”, and so the oblique case is called for here. Swap who/whom for he/him to verify that you got the case right: “it may concern him” is right, so “it may concern whom” is also right. That means “to whom it may concern” is right.

That’s not what is happening with Cersei’s blunder. In her screwed-up sentence, she says something “to whoever did it”. The object is not the word following to; it is the entire clause. That clause is “whoever did it”. Again swap in he/him to verify which should go there. You have to say “he did it”; you cannot say “*him did it”. Therefore, “whoever did it” is correct. “Him” didn’t do anything, for goodness’ sake!

Again, this is all basic English grammar.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood, 30 April 2012 - 10:50 AM.


#14 David Selig

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:56 AM

What's with Cat telling Brienne "My son's camp is a day away". How would she know? As we saw in the previous episode, Robb went somewhere to attack the Lannisters. And where is her escort? It makes no sense that she travelled all the way to the Stormlands alone at a time of war.

Bran giving orders to Rodrick about how to employ the troops is strange. He's only 11 in the series at this point, right? Rodrick or Luwyn should be the one in charge, not an 11 old boy.

#15 Jaehaerys I

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:59 AM

Arya choosing the tickler. That is one of my favorite scenes with her and the hound later on.
The reeds being left out.

#16 ViennaGirl

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:04 AM

Danerys telling Doreah (that's her, right?) to go sleep around in order to spy.
Drogon is too cute
Fist of the First Men - all I can picture is WWs rock-climbing up the cliff with carabiners and ropes. I pictured heavy forest.
Loras not suspecting Brienne of killing Renly.

#17 Jamie Lannister

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:04 AM

http://i.imgur.com/xWN8n.jpg

I'm a little disappointed in Stannis being so utterly unsympathetic. He had that little scene in the book where he reflects on how hard the night was for him, and that he'll go his grave thinking of his brother... along with a few other subtle shades to his character that just haven't translated over. Shame to lose that.

Edited by Jamie Lannister, 30 April 2012 - 11:08 AM.


#18 CrypticWeirwood

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:10 AM

Where did the Haunted Forest go? They sure get to the Lands of Always Winter pretty fast; I don’t remember them ever getting there in the books.

#19 DrogonEatsYou

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:12 AM

For a minute I thought the bald sailor that was telling Theon who should be captain was going to be Dagmer, just the ugly face and grunt attitude had me believing that, then the guy actually cast for Dagmer shows up and like when I first saw Asha, or Yara, just another character that I feel didn't fit the mold. They did so well with folks like Tywin, Tyrion, Jaime, Brienne, Jon, Arya, Varys... you get the point, but there are a couple people casts for this season that just dont seem right, and he was one. Qhorin almost feels this way too, but I'm going to wait and see with him.

Someone mentioned the fist of the first men and how it doesn't seem plausible to get off that mountain when there is only one way up... Yeah I sort of thought that too when I first saw it, although stunning and epic looking, I didn't imagine it such a high, steep mountain, maybe thats just me though.

#20 Morvran

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:21 AM

Grammar arguments are tiresome. That's my first nitpick.

There were quite a few book changes in this episode, but I didn't mind most of them b/c I trust that HBO will pull them together at some point. Most of the big changes seem to derive from characters that didn't make the book-to-screen conversion so I understand them (Bran having the green dream for example).

So my little nitpicks are that Quorin and Dagmer (sp?) don't look the way I envisioned them, especially Dagmer.

Edited by Morvran, 30 April 2012 - 11:22 AM.