40 replies to this topic

[Westeros]

As usual, our full coverage of the latest episode is now online, featuring our complete recap, analysis, and chapter-by-chapter breakdown of the episode.  The one thing is missing is the video extras we’ve done for prior episodes—that will be available some time tomorrow, didn’t quite have time to film in advance this week!

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[boojam]

I think this is the third time I have said this, but I see a flat out structural problem raising it's head.
I know David Benioff & D. B. Weiss put a lot of effort into GoT , and I think they spent more time with it, my impression is more than two years. What amazed me about the first season was being familiar with the novel how careful they were at pacing the adaptation , because a lot of condensing had to be done.
Even knowing they have thought thru the first existent 4 novels at the time, I may be wrong, but I am getting the impression that on season 2 they just have not spent enough time with the teleplays, I know they work closely with the other writers. Maybe there are not enough eyes on the dramatic material. I don't know if it changing and adding filming locations or if they just they tackling too huge a story tapestry with not enough resources. Maybe trying to fit all of CoK into 10 episodes is causing too much of a strain.
They have as fine a cast as anyone could wish for, and a production staff that is working miracles.
I see a tension , even if there are enough resources (cast are always exclaiming on how 'movie-like' the physical set up is)..... still there seems some haste to get essential story plot into too small a time span, not helped by some non essential sequences (lord bring back sexplanation!).
All the thinking and planning of the first season seems to be taking a hit this season.
With these faults GRRM has given them a story that still engages me on the screen, I an still entertained enough to watch this another 10 years!

Edited by boojam, 30 April 2012 - 03:55 PM.

[_Oberyn_]

In season 1 i enjoyed every episode and always looked forward to the next one. This season i can barely be bothered to watch and every episode is more frustrating then the next as Martins work gets mediocritized by the minute. At this rate the show will degenerate to be just some generic medieval fairy tale with stereotypical characters and random sex/nudity thrown in.

[salt]

I'm starting to feel the same way, Oberyn.  And I hate that I feel that way, since I've always been a staunch defender of the show, laughing at the people who nitpicked every frame and raged at changes from the books.  Is it just me?  Am I a jaded and cynical fanboy who can't see that season 2 really is as good as the first?  Because it sure seems like there has been a massive decline in quality.  Episode 3 has so far been the only one where I didn't feel immensely disappointed as the credits rolled.  And that really, really sucks.

[Baratheon036]

I felt the same..Although, they have spent the first 5 episodes laying down the main story for book 2. I feel like by having 10 episodes in season ruins the quality because  they leave out so much. The quality should return since it is "rumored" that they will begin to have 2 seasons per book since the get much more extensive! Stick with it. This show rocks! =D

[ICE CROW]

Over all i am enjoying the season so far, i have some minor and major problems with the show but i also have alot of great things to say also. Unfortunately Ghost of Harrenhall was in my opinion the worst episode so far.

The only thing im gonna talk about is Bran and his dream about the sea, but as soon as i heard Bran talking about his dream all the enjoyment i was having was gone. Going into season 2 we knew that not every single character was gonna make it in, we have already seen a bunch of minor characters seemingly written off altogether. But in my opinion [/spoiler] the Reeds are major characters and should have been cast, i know there has been talk about Osha taking over for the Reeds but i think this is a big mistake. Them making it so Bran has the green dreams now instead of Jojen and already leading us to believe that Osha has secret knowledge and knows exactly what they mean, already feels like we are not going to see the Reeds at all. All i know is we better see at least one of the Reeds in the next season if we don't see one or both of them at some point this season. [spoiler/]

Edited by ICE CROW, 01 May 2012 - 12:31 AM.

[Lord Mord]

Okay, so I'm not alone in the feeling of generic-ness.  And I don't know how or why.

I'm happy to have the show and I'm looking forward to seeing it unfold, but I'm really having to reconcile myself to the idea this is just a completely different thing from the novels.

[Arkash]

Thanks again Elio and Linda ! Great review ! As for your vid, I hoped you would talk about the Theon scene, which is, again, as all the Iron Island scenes so far, a really high point... but you, sadly, didnt... anyway, I agree with you on the disapointment of Renly's death... much less on the Qartheen story... I'm not disapointed by it, just curious to see how they altered it... I know Xaro's totally different, and stuff, but the Garden party didnt distrubed me that much... nor did the vault...

I actually wonder if you're not that disapointed because you saw the first four episodes long ago and had to wait that long for the rest, which would be totally understandable...

My main disapointment in this episode was the death of the Tickler... I really enjoyed the actor... and that means no "Is there gold in the village ?" later...

[PatrickStormborn]

Arkash, on 01 May 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

My main disapointment in this episode was the death of the Tickler... I really enjoyed the actor... and that means no "Is there gold in the village ?" later...

As much as I loved Arya killing the Tickler in the inn, I just can't see it working on TV. It would probably have been in season 4 if they follow ASOS closely, meaning non-readers just wouldn't remember his role and appreciate Arya finally getting revenge. Hopefully instead they set up a clash between Arya and another character (maybe Amory Lorch?), who she can get revenge on in a later season.

[Arkash]

Well, I'd guess Amory Lorch may be her next victim... leaving Polliver for later, for the inn... Poliver has a more distinguishable face than Lorch, so viewers will more easily recognize him later... and imagine the joy of the viewers when she'll get Needle two seasons later, just as we did...

[OzorxOron]

I am enjoying season 2, but not half as much as I did the first. At the moment I'm not sure if I'll be buying the blu ray set as I just don't feel as though I need to see season 2 again. My main dislike is how they've changed Stannis so much and how they're trying to paint him as the obvious villian of season 2.

[A Stark in Salem]

I hate to say I am feeling the same as other posting here: it's like every ep. goes by so fast it's feeling more like extended trailers of another, longer story.

I think 10 shows is about half as many as you need to tell the later stories after GOT. I love (mostly) what we get to see, but it can never stay long enough to be a real story. And they are having to skip major ploy points that will come back to bite them later on! No Dragon Glass? No green seer and sis with the wicked net and trident? The Tickler's already dead?

And how come I have yet to see Stannis grind his teeth, hahaha?

[Autopath]

Meh, I've avoided coming to this forum lately because of the negative posts about the show. I feel like people are constantly comparing to the books...and you just can't do that and stay mentally healthy!  You can't expect the TV show to follow the story exactly. It's that way with any dense narrative. I sort of think of the TV show as a separate entity.

The great thing about it, is that the show has become a gateway to people who would never ordinarily pick up this series. Now ASOIAF has a whole new fan base. It's  great because the books deserve it, GRRM deserves it, and the Fantasy genre has earned the legitimacy it's getting because of networks like HBO being brave enough to tell a story in a fantasy setting.

[GoodGuyA]

Autopath, on 01 May 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

Meh, I've avoided coming to this forum lately because of the negative posts about the show. I feel like people are constantly comparing to the books...and you just can't do that and stay mentally healthy!

I feel that this particular fanbase is one of the better at understanding the adaptation process, and I think people are rationally saying that they think the TV show simply is not living up to expectations. It's difficult when the bar is set so high, but the general consensus from the forum (don't know about general viewers) is not just that it's not a strict adaptation, but it's not strictly great TV either.

[Autopath]

GoodGuyA, on 01 May 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

I feel that this particular fanbase is one of the better at understanding the adaptation process, and I think people are rationally saying that they think the TV show simply is not living up to expectations. It's difficult when the bar is set so high, but the general consensus from the forum (don't know about general viewers) is not just that it's not a strict adaptation, but it's not strictly great TV either.

Ratings are a barometer of the consensus of general viewers, and ratings continue to increase to the point where they actually come close to playoff basketball. Very impressive. I think you inadvertantly made my point or I didn't explain myself very well. >.>

Normally I'd agree with you that we are typically better at understanding the adaptation process but many of the posts on this forum would point to -otherwise-...because so many are preoccupied with whether or not something in the show happened the way it did in the books.

Nutshell: As book fans, our perspective on the show and whether or not it's "good" is very very biased because it's impossible to relinquish our preconceived notions and knowledge of the flow of the books. We can't really be objective like other viewers. Fans who've never read the books (and I know many who haven't), love the show very much, and while the boobs and violence are fun, that's not why they're watching.

Edited by Autopath, 01 May 2012 - 10:24 PM.

[Sonic The Hedgehog]

Autopath, on 01 May 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

Meh, I've avoided coming to this forum lately because of the negative posts about the show. I feel like people are constantly comparing to the books...and you just can't do that and stay mentally healthy!  You can't expect the TV show to follow the story exactly. It's that way with any dense narrative. I sort of think of the TV show as a separate entity.

I feel the same way. I'm just enjoying the ride with the show, and it's been long enough since I last reread the books that it's not coloring how I view the show too much. In the discussion threads there are many people who seem to want the show to be an adaption first and foremost. And while I want the show to maintain the integrity of the books, I understand certain elements have to be changed for the medium. The show isn't aiming to please us book nerds by including dialogue verbatim, or every side character.

The books aren't flawless either. In some cases I prefer the way the show has portrayed events, such as Ned's death, or the aging up of characters. So I trust that the creators know where they're going when they diverge from the path of the books. Deviations can be for the better. And reading people treating each change as audacious without seeing where the show goes with it gets tiring.

[akajea]

Quote

but the general consensus from the forum (don't know about general viewers) is not just that it's not a strict adaptation, but it's not strictly great TV either.

General consensus? A few posts here and there aren't a general consensus. Go look at the "How would you rate...?" threads and you will see the vast majority rate each episode between 8 and 10.

The term you are looking for is "vocal minority".

[salt]

I still think its great TV, just not as good as last season.  Not from the perspective that they're diverging from the books too much, but just that purely as a television show its generally not as well written or directed as the first season was.  That's worrisome to me, since I thought each of the first 3 books were better than the last.  If they're struggling with ACOK, it makes me worried about what will happen when they get to the AFFC material, which many readers consider to be a weak spot.  Still, the lowest rating I've ever given out this season has been a 7, and that was only for one episode.  I criticize because the incredible first season and the source material have my hopes very high, but its still without a doubt one of the best shows on television.

[_Oberyn_]

I definitely agree salt.

akajea, on 02 May 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

The term you are looking for is "vocal minority".

As opposed to "sheep"

Edited by _Oberyn_, 02 May 2012 - 02:28 PM.

[Curly Girl]

The first season of AGOT was actually my introduction to ASOIAF. I loved it & I ended up reading the books in a few weeks b/c I couldn't put them down. I re-read them all prior to this seasons preview & I took my time & read them more carefully & picked up on a lot that I had missed in my haste to just find out what happened! I found them even more amazing & addictive the second time round.

So maybe it's partly because I saw season 1 prior to reading the books & it was so brilliantly done that I remember it as being very true to the book.  But also I think that even though AGOT has a lot of different plot lines it seems that "the thread" is a lot closer to the spool per se than the later books, in each of which the thread seems to get longer & longer & more tangled. I imagine that it will get harder & harder to keep the series so close to the books.

I also realized that, for me at least, the story runs together so seamlessly that I have trouble remembering what events happened in which books (of course time management has never been one of my strong points so quite possibly this just pertains to me!).

I assume that some things may get cut entirely, others pushed back or pulled forward to make the timeline less confusing to viewers who haven't read the books in future seasons. But when you're (meaning me) that invested in the story these changes can be annoying. Even, or maybe especially, the little ones! I think that's the great thing about ASOIAF & GRRM's work. Even the little things hold great meaning. I think that's why people are so devoted to the books.

I'm just going to try to enjoy both the show & the books separately for what they are.  I've done that for True Blood & its worked somewhat, although I have to admit I definitely prefer the books over the show. And those books can't hold a candle to these!

I've also found that Occasionally as a bonus something in the show will actually be such a nice addition or surprise that it increases my liking in the books. Like Charles Dance as Tywin! Absolutely hated him in the books, didn't feel that he had any redeeming qualities at all, in the show...dare I say it... Kind of like him, even respect him, think I may even be shedding a tear in the future!

Oooops, just realized I hit rambling a couple paragraphs ago. I'll take my leave. Hope you all enjoy the show.