160 replies to this topic

[romantic]

I asume the wildlings are needed to repopulate the North and fight the WWs and wights. Thousands initially headed south for the wall. Some have been allowed through, some went to Hardhome, the rest are where??. Does anyone know how many there were to begin with and how many are left, either safe (ish) south of the wall or stuck on the northern side (alive or turned)?  
Also how important are the wildlings to the future of Westeros?

Edit: This thread was originally 'How Many Wildlings are Left?' but has moved into a general discussion about the population of Westeros. I hope this change of title doesn't upset anyone as the original title can be easily included in the latter title.

Edited by romantic, 26 May 2012 - 10:44 PM.

[Arthanis]

Question is:
How many of them already have blue eyes?

[Leviathan I]

Quote

Also how important are the wildlings to the future of Westeros?

Not very... I don't see any reason why they're important at all, other than the fact they can potentially turn into Others if they die.

[Free Northman]

There were at most 50,000 wildlings to start with.

Of them, maybe 3,000 have been let through the Wall.

Maybe 5,000 remain at Hardhome, and a few thousand more at the Bridge of Skulls.

Compare this to the North which has a population of maybe 6 million people. In this context, the wildling numbers are too insignficant to be of any value to the story.

[Ice Turtle]

Free Northman, on 30 April 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

There were at most 50,000 wildlings to start with.

Of them, maybe 3,000 have been let through the Wall.

Maybe 5,000 remain at Hardhome, and a few thousand more at the Bridge of Skulls.

Compare this to the North which has a population of maybe 6 million people. In this context, the wildling numbers are too insignficant to be of any value to the story.

Aren't those only Tormunds people? Some were supposed to come trough Estwatch or Shadow tower with giants.

[Visual909]

Tormund alone had 3,000 the number is much higher than that I'd say 50,000 before they attacked the wall would be accurate, but after the defeat. 3,000 went to Hardhome and probably half that starved by now. I think more like 7-10 thousand made it through, but a great deal were women and children that can't fight. while the Weeper might have a reasonably large sized group most of the wildlings are south of the wall or dead by now. So I'd say maybe 15,000 max for both sides and that population if it survived the war, winter, and bent the knee to the irone throne could have a significant impact after a generation (20 years). But a lot has to happen for that most likely half that again will ide off before the end of the series if not all.

[romantic]

Free Northman, on 30 April 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

There were at most 50,000 wildlings to start with.

Of them, maybe 3,000 have been let through the Wall.

Maybe 5,000 remain at Hardhome, and a few thousand more at the Bridge of Skulls.

Compare this to the North which has a population of maybe 6 million people. In this context, the wildling numbers are too insignficant to be of any value to the story.

  
How does the the North have a population of 6 million? Didn't most of the fighting age men (approx. 20,000 men) go with Robb and were slaughtered? I know the North is a big area but IMO it always seemed very sparsely populated.  I also thought the central area (Trident and surrounds) had been pretty well wiped out of men and women.

Also if there were around 50,000 wildlings originally and maybe 5-6,000 got through the Wall, does that mean there could be 40,000+ WW/wights eventually?

[Free Northman]

romantic, on 01 May 2012 - 04:31 AM, said:

  
How does the the North have a population of 6 million? Didn't most of the fighting age men (approx. 20,000 men) go with Robb and were slaughtered? I know the North is a big area but IMO it always seemed very sparsely populated.  I also thought the central area (Trident and surrounds) had been pretty well wiped out of men and women.

Also if there were around 50,000 wildlings originally and maybe 5-6,000 got through the Wall, does that mean there could be 40,000+ WW/wights eventually?

It has been established that Westeros south of the Wall has approximately 40 million people. The North is neither the least nor most populated of the constituent Kingdoms.

6 million people would make it more or less mid sized for one of the Seven Kingdoms.

Put another way, that would still mean that 85% of the people in the Seven Kingdoms live on the Southern half of the continent, with only 15% living on the Northern half.

Edited by Free Northman, 01 May 2012 - 01:14 PM.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

enough

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

Free Northman, on 01 May 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

It has been established that Westeros south of the Wall has approximately 40 million people. The North is neither the least nor most populated of the constituent Kingdoms.

6 million people would make it more or less mid sized for one of the Seven Kingdoms.

Put another way, that would still mean that 85% of the people in the Seven Kingdoms live on the Southern half of the continent, with only 15% living on the Northern half.

nice analysis

also keep in mind that Iron Islands can't possibly hold 6 million people (i'd say 1 or 2 at max), Vale probably doesn't have 6 either - mountain region and all (I'd give them 4 or 5) and our sweet but not so populated Dorne - about 3 mil or so

As for the 15% overall population spread over half a continent - it would explain Robert's impression in AGOT but it would also make tiny Iron Islands (assuming they host 1 or 2 mil ppl) extremely overpopulated (like KL spread over archipelago of tiny islands)
i think North can have much bigger population than average 6 mil and still give that graveyard chill

Edited by Young Wolf's Vanguard, 03 May 2012 - 09:11 AM.

[Ernestm]

Free Northman, on 01 May 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

It has been established that Westeros south of the Wall has approximately 40 million people. The North is neither the least nor most populated of the constituent Kingdoms.

6 million people would make it more or less mid sized for one of the Seven Kingdoms.

Put another way, that would still mean that 85% of the people in the Seven Kingdoms live on the Southern half of the continent, with only 15% living on the Northern half.

Nice calculations but I believe there aren't that many wildlings left beyond the wall, many probably got burned after they died, or they were left and got turned.

[facelessPAman]

When was it established that Westeros has a poplation of about 40 million? (not trying to nitpick, just can't remember when it was established)

[romantic]

IMO the wildilings are more important then they are given credit. They have been dealing with WWs and wights for much longer then anyone else so they probably know more about them then anyone else (apart from the First Men who keep hidden), e.g. burning corpses. They also have secret knowledge about the wall, e.g. knowing of a horn that might breach the wall. They also know how to survive hostile winter conditions better than anyone else. They also suspect greyscale sleeps and doesn't stop (anyone see a plague arising!). I wonder what the Giants know and what is their relationsip is to the First Men? Jon was humane, but above all wise, to try and enlist their help and get them through the wall while also reducing potential WW/wight hosts.

[Visual909]

Ya unfortunately other members of the NW didn't see it that way.

[Free Northman]

facelessPAman, on 03 May 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

When was it established that Westeros has a poplation of about 40 million? (not trying to nitpick, just can't remember when it was established)

It's as close to an official number as we will get. Supported by Ran, the co-creator of the Ice and Fire World Book coming out later this year.

It also happens to agree with a number of logical arguments, such as medieval urbanisation rates, population density ratios and army size to population ratios from medieval times.

[Black Crow]

romantic, on 29 April 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

I asume the wildlings are needed to repopulate the North and fight the WWs and wights...
Also how important are the wildlings to the future of Westeros?

The question of numbers has been well addressed by Free Northman above, but I'd like to make an important point which has been overlooked in the discussion. Mance's/Tormund's people (and in the scheme of things there aren't many) can be considered as a group, but the whole point about the Free Folk is that they are just that, they're individuals. Away back at the beginning, early in AGoT when Mormont is trying to convince Tyrion to help get reinforcements sent to the Wall he doesn't just mention the missing rangers, the nasty things in the woods and the White Walkers by Eastwatch; he also tells him of reports from the Shadow Tower of the mountain people moving south in far greater numbers than before. As it turns out they included Osha and like her they were individuals and families making their own arrangements to escape the White Cold.

Even allowing for a lot of them making it through they're still scattered individuals and groups. Some of them will undoubtedly end up bulking out local retinues, others will starve or otherwise be killed, but the point is that apart from Mance's/Tormond's band there is no Wildling nation, there are no wildling clans rallying to Stannis or anybody else's banners to alter the balance of power in the north.

[facelessPAman]

Free Northman, on 05 May 2012 - 04:24 AM, said:

It's as close to an official number as we will get. Supported by Ran, the co-creator of the Ice and Fire World Book coming out later this year.

It also happens to agree with a number of logical arguments, such as medieval urbanisation rates, population density ratios and army size to population ratios from medieval times.

It seems like a reasonable number. Europe's population in 1000AD was about the same http://www.fordham.e.../pop-in-eur.asp

As for the Wildlings, I thnk they, and most of the North, will not fare well during the Long Night. Indeed, most of Westeros won't. I wonder if a lost of Daenery's followers will repopulate Westeros after the Others depopulate it?

[Dreadnaught]

Free Northman, on 01 May 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

It has been established that Westeros south of the Wall has approximately 40 million people. The North is neither the least nor most populated of the constituent Kingdoms. 6 million people would make it more or less mid sized for one of the Seven Kingdoms. Put another way, that would still mean that 85% of the people in the Seven Kingdoms live on the Southern half of the continent, with only 15% living on the Northern half.

So according to the estimates 2% of the population would serve in standing armies.  So there should be 800,000 soldiers in Westeros, with 120,000 of those being from the North.  Robb took 20,000 with him, and possibly another 50,000 are spread between the forces in Winterfell and the Northern lords.  They are still missing 70,000 soldiers.  Unless the population of the North is closer to 2.5 - 3 million.  Also where are these 800,000 soldiers in Westeros, from the numbers being used in battle it seems more likely there are around 400,000 soldiers in Westeros, which means the population should only be 20 million people.  Also this is considering standing armies, when Robb took his men south the harvests rotted in the fields.  Which means they conscripted the peasants and farmers into the army.  This is not adding up.  It must be 40 million people in Westeros and Essos.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

@ Free Northman

Weren't the Wildlings about 100,000 altogether? I'm not sure where I got this number but it has been spooking around my brain for months.

@ Dreadnaught

Rule of thumb is 1%, not 2%. While 2% is achievable depending on technology and climate, it is an upper limit. And the climate in the North is very harsh, which may put the percentage way down, maybe to 0.5%. Which in turn would put the number of people in the North somewhere around 10 millions. Still just a quarter of the South.

@ Young Wolf's Vanguard

The Iron Islands are the odd one out. They are a naval culture, not an agrarian. Naval cultures could field a larger percentage. And together they have at least the same landmass as Ireland, it's just spread over several islands.

[Lan the Clever]

The iron Islands have the same landmass as Ireland? It sure doesn't look so in the maps. Where did you get that information?