235 replies to this topic

[Independent George]

I'm re-reading ASOS right now, and as much as it hurts, I find myself getting even angrier at Robb than I do at Walder Frey. Yes, the Red Wedding was a horrible act of cold-blooded murder completely disproportionate to the original "crime". At the same time, though, what did Robb really expect of Walder Frey? Whenever I put myself in Walder Frey's shoes, I don't kill Robb at the Red Wedding, but I don't let him cross, either. Instead, I send a raven to King's Landing and let Tywin Lannister know exactly when Robb's army is approaching the Twins, and hold them off in a siege while waiting for Lannister/Tyrell reinforcements. Robb's army, outnumbered 8 to 1 and caught while investing a siege, gets wiped out.

I'm not justifying the Red Wedding; far from it. I think Walder Frey had plenty of additional, more legitimate avenues for revenge than that. But far from absolving him, that makes Robb even more culpable for losing the North, not less.

I would argue that Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling was easily the dumbest decision made by any character in the entire series. It was dumber than Ned telling Cersei that he knew the truth, dumber than Cersei re-arming the Faith Militant, dumber than Catelyn arresting Tyrion at the inn, dumber than Sansa mooning over Joffrey, dumber than Daenerys staying in Meereen, and dumber than Quentyn trying to tame the dragon.

He didn't just place her honor above his; he placed her honor above his entire kingdom, and all those who chose to follow him. He didn't just place her honor above his own, as Tywin Lannister put it; he put her honor above everyone who followed him, fought for him, and bled for him. There's nothing noble in that; it's selfish, narcissistic, and arrogant. It didn't just cost him his own life, it cost the lives of all those who placed their trust in him - and it would have even without the Red Wedding. He betrayed them just as much as he betrayed the Freys.

[Jem]

Independent George, on 29 April 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

He didn't just place her honor above his; he placed her honor above his entire kingdom, and all those who chose to follow him. He didn't just place her honor above his own, as Tywin Lannister put it; he put her honor above everyone who followed him, fought for him, and bled for him. There's nothing noble in that; it's selfish, narcissistic, and arrogant. It didn't just cost him his own life, it cost the lives of all those who placed their trust in him - and it would have even without the Red Wedding. He betrayed them just as much as he betrayed the Freys.

I agree.

What Ned Stark failed to tell his sons (obviously because he didn't know it himself) is that it can be impossible to be honourable to all people at all times. When you choose to act honourably towards one person, you run the risk of dishonouring someone else.

[Gurkhal]

Independent George, on 29 April 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

I'm re-reading ASOS right now, and as much as it hurts, I find myself getting even angrier at Robb than I do at Walder Frey. Yes, the Red Wedding was a horrible act of cold-blooded murder completely disproportionate to the original "crime". At the same time, though, what did Robb really expect of Walder Frey? Whenever I put myself in Walder Frey's shoes, I don't kill Robb at the Red Wedding, but I don't let him cross, either. Instead, I send a raven to King's Landing and let Tywin Lannister know exactly when Robb's army is approaching the Twins, and hold them off in a siege while waiting for Lannister/Tyrell reinforcements. Robb's army, outnumbered 8 to 1 and caught while investing a siege, gets wiped out.

I'm not justifying the Red Wedding; far from it. I think Walder Frey had plenty of additional, more legitimate avenues for revenge than that. But far from absolving him, that makes Robb even more culpable for losing the North, not less.

I would argue that Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling was easily the dumbest decision made by any character in the entire series. It was dumber than Ned telling Cersei that he knew the truth, dumber than Cersei re-arming the Faith Militant, dumber than Catelyn arresting Tyrion at the inn, dumber than Sansa mooning over Joffrey, dumber than Daenerys staying in Meereen, and dumber than Quentyn trying to tame the dragon.

He didn't just place her honor above his; he placed her honor above his entire kingdom, and all those who chose to follow him. He didn't just place her honor above his own, as Tywin Lannister put it; he put her honor above everyone who followed him, fought for him, and bled for him. There's nothing noble in that; it's selfish, narcissistic, and arrogant. It didn't just cost him his own life, it cost the lives of all those who placed their trust in him - and it would have even without the Red Wedding. He betrayed them just as much as he betrayed the Freys.

I agree entirely.

[BondJamesBond]

It's pretty reasonable to expect someone not to murder hundreds because his daughter's fiancé called off the wedding.  Seriously, Frey is a sociopath.  No one expected that. I would have expected he'd be cool with his daughter marrying edmure tully.  I would not expect him to murder the groom's relatives.

Also its only a matter of time before the freys are annihilated.  You would expect Frey to foresee that and just keep his word and enjoy watching his daughter married to edmure.

Edited by BondJamesBond, 30 April 2012 - 12:09 AM.

[Ser Hippie]

It was a pretty stupid decision, yes, although he obviously expected Frey to be bought off with Edmure, as it were. Politics was always Robb's weakpoint and the RW was an unfortunate but spectacular result of it.

Edited by Ser Hippie, 30 April 2012 - 12:14 AM.

[bloodymime]

BondJamesBond, on 30 April 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

It's pretty reasonable to expect someone not to murder hundreds because his daughter's fiancé called off the wedding.  Seriously, Frey is a sociopath.  No one expected that. I would have expected he'd be cool with his daughter marrying edmure tully.  I would not expect him to murder the groom's relatives.

Also its only a matter of time before the freys are annihilated.  You would expect Frey to foresee that and just keep his word and enjoy watching his daughter married to edmure.

I'll never agree about it being a good idea for Cat marrying Robb off to a Frey but it was a done deal and breaking a marriage alliance like that is more than just calling off a wedding. They obviously did have suspicions of Frey retaliation up until they took bread and salt and after that well, like the man siad, guest right just isn't what it used to be.

It's interesting to see that it's the brother that's far more aware of what it means to be born a bastard who is the one to leave his woman for the greater good while Robb ruins himself and the North staying with his. I wonder if there was any guilt in Robb growing up with a motherless bastard Jon and not wanting to potentially leave his own behind in a girl's belly.

Edited by bloodymime, 30 April 2012 - 12:56 AM.

[PrinceHenryris]

Given the Fey's history, (IM(n)HO) Robb's best decision would have been to sack the Twins as soon as the gates were opened.

Failing that, messages should have been sent to the Neck to make the Frey's exceedingly short lives end in agonizing pain.

[Gurkhal]

PrinceHenryris, on 30 April 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

Given the Fey's history, (IM(n)HO) Robb's best decision would have been to sack the Twins as soon as the gates were opened.

Failing that, messages should have been sent to the Neck to make the Frey's exceedingly short lives end in agonizing pain.

For all his faults Robb is neither Aerys nor Joffrey so that particulary course of action would probably have been bad to suggest.

[Grip]

Yeah

Independent George, on 29 April 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

...He didn't just place her honor above his; he placed her honor above his entire kingdom, and all those who chose to follow him. He didn't just place her honor above his own, as Tywin Lannister put it; he put her honor above everyone who followed him, fought for him, and bled for him. There's nothing noble in that; it's selfish, narcissistic, and arrogant. It didn't just cost him his own life, it cost the lives of all those who placed their trust in him - and it would have even without the Red Wedding. He betrayed them just as much as he betrayed the Freys.

Yeah I agree with this. I can understand Frey and while I wouldnt have done what he did I too would of course have been upset especially since the Frey's are a rather strong and important house. The Freys provided quite a large numbers of troops to Robbs cause and risked as much, probably more, than any of the houses in the North. If the war dragged on and with the Riverlands lost the Freys would have been struck first, without the Twins the North would be vulnerable. So Walders anger is understandable though of course he shouldnt have killed his liege lord..

Edited by Grip, 30 April 2012 - 01:12 AM.

[PrinceHenryris]

Gurkhal, on 30 April 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

For all his faults Robb is neither Aerys nor Joffrey so that particulary course of action would probably have been bad to suggest.

I'm not saying Robb would have done it, but from both a strategic and tactical perspective, he should have.

[Hear Us Roar]

I agree, the honourable thing to do would be to think of the realm rather than play house. People are dying in droves and his duty as King would be to put an end to the fighting as soon as possible

[Gurkhal]

PrinceHenryris, on 30 April 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

I'm not saying Robb would have done it, but from both a strategic and tactical perspective, he should have.

I think he would have damaged his own cause and caused a rather signficient friction with the Tullys when he exterminates their vassals when they don't play nice with him.

[NomadicDirewolf]

he was pretty suspicious in the first place, and he was at least aware of the risk he was taking, hence why he asked to eat as soon as he got to the twins, but he had to do it as it was the only way he could reclaim the north from the ironborn, if he didnt do it, there wouldn't have been a kingdom to rule over anyway

[etu]

If I was Walder Frey, given Robb's record of military victories to date, I wouldn't have put him in a position of "Storm my castle or die". There is a disturbingly high risk of my castle being stormed. And by disturbing, I mean greater than 0.1pc. The Red Wedding was far safer, if completely short on morals.

Also... there's a lot of cases in the books of people putting personal love and honour ahead of their duty to the kingdom. And very few of them see their reputations suffer as a result. I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this. But it just strikes me as interesting/weird.

[greywindsrage]

I agree with you totally. However what pisses me off the most is that Grey Wind was undeniably loyal too him and he couldn't see it. When he met with the Freys GW smelled the treachery and Robb couldn't see it. Even after Catelyn told him to keep him close. Then the King of the North gives in to Walder Frey and leaves GW outside! Pains me to no ends everytime I think about it. I don't know what hurts more Ned's death or Robb's.

[Padraig O'Sullivan]

It's a shame that Robb was never a POV character and then we could know what was going through that head of his.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

"Would you look at those fucking hips, man! Daym, woman. Fuck that Walder Frey and his stoatish daughters."

[The Storm Queen]

Jem, on 29 April 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

I agree.

What Ned Stark failed to tell his sons (obviously because he didn't know it himself) is that it can be impossible to be honourable to all people at all times. When you choose to act honourably towards one person, you run the risk of dishonouring someone else.

I agree but also have to add that there could have been a solution that would have been honourable for everyone: Robb simply should not have slept with a highborn virgin at all .No "dishonoured" Jeyne, no wedding, no Red Wedding....
Even if he has slept with her there would have been better solutions that even might have been better for Jeyne in the long run:
- Offer Jeyne to arrange a marriage with a young and nice bannerman from the North or the Riverlands
- Offer Jeyne to become a septa if she wished to do so
- Keep calm about the affair and consult a maester who could  make sure that no child was conceived (one day after they had sex this would not even have been an abortion). Let Jeyne live her life and if she decided to marry one day, go with the "riding horse" excuse.

[SynthFG]

The Storm Queen, on 30 April 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

I agree but also have to add that there could have been a solution that would have been honourable for everyone: Robb simply should not have slept with a highborn virgin at all .No "dishonoured" Jeyne, no wedding, no Red Wedding....
Even if he has slept with her there would have been better solutions that even might have been better for Jeyne in the long run:
- Offer Jeyne to arrange a marriage with a young and nice bannerman from the North or the Riverlands
- Offer Jeyne to become a septa if she wished to do so
- Keep calm about the affair and consult a maester who could  make sure that no child was conceived (one day after they had sex this would not even have been an abortion). Let Jeyne live her life and if she decided to marry one day, go with the "riding horse" excuse.

Could also have offered to make Jeyne his concubine
He had to marry a Frey and sire an heir on her, but there was nothing in his contract with Walder about loving her or not having a mistress

Edited by SynthFG, 30 April 2012 - 07:11 AM.

[FuzzyJAM]

Jem, on 29 April 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

I agree.

What Ned Stark failed to tell his sons (obviously because he didn't know it himself) is that it can be impossible to be honourable to all people at all times. When you choose to act honourably towards one person, you run the risk of dishonouring someone else.

Nope.  If Robb had followed Ned's honour code, he'd never have slept with Jeyne in the first place.  If you break the code, it's not a failing of that code if there is then no "honourable" solution to get out of the problem you've made.  Robb shouldn't have slept with Jeyne.  Problem solved.  


Past that, Robb was simply stupid and didn't deal with his dilemma well.  There was no "honourable" course open to him after he'd had sex with Jeyne - he was either going to have slept with her and not marry her, or break a betrothal - and therefore he should have gone for the more practical course that wasn't going to put his entire kingdom and all those who followed him into huge danger.