235 replies to this topic

[Milcov]

BondJamesBond, on 30 April 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

It's pretty reasonable to expect someone not to murder hundreds because his daughter's fiancé called off the wedding.  Seriously, Frey is a sociopath.  No one expected that. I would have expected he'd be cool with his daughter marrying edmure tully.  I would not expect him to murder the groom's relatives.

Also its only a matter of time before the freys are annihilated.  You would expect Frey to foresee that and just keep his word and enjoy watching his daughter married to edmure.

Walder Frey wanted his family to be married into a great house. That was his aim, he achieved it and then it was thrown in his face by the grandson of the man who repeatedly turned down his offers of marriages and mocked him. Robb was a fool, and it wasn't the honourable thing to marry Jeyne. He'd have only needed to ask his mother or father (whether his fathers answer would be truthful is doubtful) what to do in that situation. Eddard claims to have had an affair during the rebellion, possibly with a noble daughter yet he honoured his marriage contract because it's more important.

Frey maybe should have been happy with Edmure, but Rosilin (Robb probably picks her if she's attractive) would have been a Queen, being a Lady of a great house isn't the same as Queen. If he wanted to make it up he'd have needed Edmure, Brynden, Catelyn, Bran, Arya (still) and Rickon to be thrown into the deal. Edmure was never a suitable replacement for Robb.

[Independent George]

PrinceHenryris, on 30 April 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

Given the Fey's history, (IM(n)HO) Robb's best decision would have been to sack the Twins as soon as the gates were opened.

Failing that, messages should have been sent to the Neck to make the Frey's exceedingly short lives end in agonizing pain.

1, Him and what army? He couldn't sack the twins except at horrible cost when he had 20,000 men with him; he has 3,000 on his way back North at the time of the Red Wedding, with the bulk of his forces under Bolton control.
2. How would that be any more helpful to his reputation than the Red Wedding is to Walder Frey's? If he attacks the Twins without provocation, he loses the rest of the Riverlands. Assuming he even survives the assault, that is - see point #1 above.

[MysteriousStranger08]

He suffered the same mistakes as Ned. Putting too much trust in the wrong people, and sticking too close to his code of honour. While, like Ned, he was good in the field, when it came to the politics of ruling, he was simply too honourable.

[My_Arya_Spirit]

Come on, it wasn't honor so much as the raging hormones of a teenager who fancied himself in love. Rememebr Jeyne telling Cat that they were having sex at least once a day, sometimes twice? How did he find time to do that in the midst of war?

And let's not forget that Lady Westerling was conspiring with Tywin and the Freys. Maybe the conspiracy involved Jeyne and began earlier than we know. If they were having sex that frequently and not conceiving, perhaps Jeyne was given moon tea by her mother?

Is it plausible that Robb found Jeyne, the relationship developed and was pushed along by her mother, and his honor and hormones took them North?

[Feather Crystal]

I think Robb's marriage to Jeyne was the proof that while he was pretending to be a grown man and a king, that he really was still just an immature, love-sick, horny teenager.

[Independent George]

MysteriousStranger08, on 30 April 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

He suffered the same mistakes as Ned. Putting too much trust in the wrong people, and sticking too close to his code of honour. While, like Ned, he was good in the field, when it came to the politics of ruling, he was simply too honourable.

But my point is that there was no honor to be had in marrying Jeyne. It was completely selfish to do so; he wasn't preserving her honor, he was dishonoring his entire cause. He used Lord Frey when he needed him, tossed him under the bus when he didn't, and came crawling back when he needed him again. Walder Frey had every right to tell him to piss off.

Even without the Red Wedding, Robb lost the war by marrying Jeyne. He put his own happiness above the lives of his bannermen.

[Jon Flowers]

The only believeable part was that at sixteen or so, Robb slept with the first good looking girl to crawl into his bed.  After that, none of it made sense whether his actions or Lord Frey's.  Unless Frey is just "bad" and Robb is just "dumb" that is (which is a bit of a departure from most of the rest of the series thematically speaking).  It was as though Martin had already decided that there would be a Red Wedding and then set out to justify it, doing so in a slightly contrived manner.

[WinterWarrior]

Robb was only 16 or so and the Stark kids all started off way too naive, honorable and unaware of the ways of the world. They were not politically savvy and thought everyone was as up front and honest as them. Robb probably did not expect Walder Frey to be too angry because he figured it was not that big of a deal - he did not understand what breaking his oath would cost him.

That said, nothing could justify the Red Wedding. It was and continues to be the most horrific act in the five books. And the destruction of Grey Wind was unnecessary. Why should Robb not feel Grey Wind was his protector just because he thought Summer and Shaggy Dog had not protected Bran and Rickon? He had concluded that the myth about the direwolves was not true and left himself unprotected and poor Grey Wind alone and vulnerable.

I cannot wait until the Frey's get their due. I want Walder Frey to get what is coming to him and for him to see his large family destroyed before his eyes. Please, please in Book 6! And i want Nymeria and her Wolf Army to be a part of it.

Edited by WinterWarrior, 30 April 2012 - 11:06 AM.

[Castel]

Quote

Robb was only 16 or so and the Stark kids all started off way too naive, honorable and unaware of the ways of the world. They were not politically savvy and thought everyone was as up front and honest as them. Robb probably did not expect Walder Frey to be too angry because he figured it was not that big of a deal - he did not understand what breaking his oath would cost him.

Oh Robb knew that Walder Frey would be mad, maybe murderously so,  he just didn't have a choice. Which was his real fault, the strong get to write off their allies, not someone who relies on the Freys for a significant amount of his forces.

Quote

Walder Frey wanted his family to be married into a great house. That was his aim, he achieved it and then it was thrown in his face by the grandson of the man who repeatedly turned down his offers of marriages and mocked him. Robb was a fool, and it wasn't the honourable thing to marry Jeyne. He'd have only needed to ask his mother or father (whether his fathers answer would be truthful is doubtful) what to do in that situation. Eddard claims to have had an affair during the rebellion, possibly with a noble daughter yet he honoured his marriage contract because it's more important.

Frey maybe should have been happy with Edmure, but Rosilin (Robb probably picks her if she's attractive) would have been a Queen, being a Lady of a great house isn't the same as Queen. If he wanted to make it up he'd have needed Edmure, Brynden, Catelyn, Bran, Arya (still) and Rickon to be thrown into the deal. Edmure was never a suitable replacement for Robb.

Bran is a cripple, Cat is approaching the end of her child bearing years, Brynden... is Brynden, and Arya... maybe a good match.

Let's not forget also, Frey lost his first son, the one that he had groomed for what? Sixty years? Only to be told that despite his army making up a large part of the kingdoms force, he was being spurned for some woman, presumably because she had better blood. And then he's offered Emdure. It's gotta sting. Combine that with what happened the last time he made a match with a Great House (10 year old Tywin embarrassing him in front of everyone, I'm not sure this isn't why he rebelled in the first place, he can hold grudges) he had had enough.

And no one gives Jeyne any heat for this,she married a man that was a  sworn enemy to her father and his lord, it's a miracle they all escaped with their lives really.

[Ser Tom Tarly]

Robb should never have married Jeyne Westerling, he thought it was the honourable thing to do but he had already agreed to a bethrothal. I agree that Edmure was not a suitable replacement for Robb and he should have known better than to think that Walder Frey would settle for that. On the other hand Robb probably thought he could salvage something and I think he was pretty desperate to keep hold of his allies, even scum like the Freys. He knew the risks and was advised not to trust them, he took their salt and bread as soon as he could.
I cant wait for the Freys to get their dues, Lady Stoneheart will probably hang a good portion of them, a few more will fall to the wolf pack and you never know Arya might pay them a visit.

[Milcov]

Bran is still Robb's heir, and would be Lord of Winterfell if Robb changed his mind and went for the Iron Throne. Willas Tyrell would still be a good match for a bannermen along the line of the Freys, as would Bran. Cat is getting old but it's a gesture, Arya was already in the offer and she'd have to be maintained. Brynden almost certainly wouldn't marry.

But my point was that Edmure<Robb when it comes to the Freys, combine that with the insult that Robb gave them and he has to throw everything he has at the Freys. Edmure just wasn't going to seal it, even if the Freys hadn't already changed sides.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Castel, on 30 April 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

And no one gives Jeyne any heat for this,she married a man that was a  sworn enemy to her father and his lord, it's a miracle they all escaped with their lives really.

You seem to forget Raynald Westerling (and a whole host of people at the RW of course, but I assume you just meant the Westerlings).

Edited by Howlin' Howland Reed, 30 April 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[cuendillar]

The marriage compromise to Edmure might have done more harm than good in preventing retribution. Suddenly, Robb had no brothers but a soon-to-be half-Frey cousin. It's not near as strong as giving him a Frey queen, but still within the line of succession. That must have it imperative to act before he could have a son, Edmure was more than just Lord of the Riverlands in that way.

[bloodymime]

Robb likely might have also just expected to Frey to swallow it down and take it because that's exactly what Walder would have done without Tywin backing him and hooking him up with Bolton.

He's already thrown in with Robb and if I'm Lannister getting any message from Frey asking for help the only thing I'm thinking is trap. The Red Wedding isn't just revenge on Robb, it's Frey buying his way back into an unforgiving man's good graces.

[Axon]

Well, normally Robb's error wouldn't have lead to his death - more likely a sullying of his reputation, depending on who you asked about it.  However, because he was in the midst of a war against a very deadly foe, it cost him his life.

[Storms End]

PrinceHenryris, on 30 April 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

Given the Fey's history, (IM(n)HO) Robb's best decision would have been to sack the Twins as soon as the gates were opened.

Failing that, messages should have been sent to the Neck to make the Frey's exceedingly short lives end in agonizing pain.

Terrible idea, the Freys were a massive part of Robb's army, killing Walder would send the rest of the family hunting to get the top spot, so either way, Tywin would of gotten his way.

[Howling Mad]

Let's face Robb's marriage to Jeyne did cause the.Red Wedding.  Theon's sack of Winterfell and the taking of Moat Cailin caused the Red Wedding. Did Walder Frey's pride get hurt by Robb's actions? Sure it did.  Would WF have dared to backstab and betray Robb if the North hadn't suddenly been outfoxed   by the Ironborne?  No way.

Theon's crime had a.much greater impact then Robb's marriage.

[metafor]

The RW wasn't just revenge. Frey saw the opportunity. The North was taken and the chances Robb has to win the war on two fronts weren't exactly a sure-thing. Add to that Bolton -- who has the largest fighting force in the North -- had given up on Stark and it became an obvious decision to side with the Lannisters.

Robb was not pragmatic when it came to keeping alliances and ensuring that they stayed with him. He was also incredibly naive in not leaving behind a defensive force.

[Independent George]

Axon, on 30 April 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

Well, normally Robb's error wouldn't have lead to his death - more likely a sullying of his reputation, depending on who you asked about it.  However, because he was in the midst of a war against a very deadly foe, it cost him his life.

Normally, Robb's error would have just meant that Walder Frey would bar passage to the crossing, which would have meant his army was trapped, surrounded, and outnumbered. Robb himself said that his war was lost if he couldn't win back the Freys. Leaving aside the Red Wedding, one would have to assume the Freys couldn't be won backm and the war was lost.

My guess is that Tywin would offer him the choice of surrendering and taking the black, sparing his bannermen, and Tyrion and Sansa returning as Lord and Lady of winterfell, or having his remaining forces destroyed with Tyrion and Sansa holding Winterfell anyway.

Again - Robb lost the war the day he spurned the Freys. In my opinion, honor had nothing to do with it - it was just a post facto rationalization. In the end, he cared more about Jeyne than he did about his bannermen, or even Sansa's life.

[Cadiva]

Fairly sure the point George Martin is making is that, no matter how effective Robb Stark is on the battlefield, his naievity and misguided sense of honour leads to his downfall in the very same way as it led to his father's. Robb is totally Ned's son. If he'd had more of Cat in him then the Red Wedding would never have happened. He would have known he'd have to suck it up and marry a Frey girl because he needed Walder Frey and all his bannermen to counter against Theon's betrayal.
The fact Tywin was able to use the Westerlings to infiltrate Robb's circle is simply very clever playing of the Game of Thrones. He gambled that Robb would be young enough and inexperienced enough to fall for Jayne and that his honour would then mean he'd have to marry her. The fact Roose Bolton has also thrown his lot in with Lannisters gives Walder Frey enough incentive to break his traditional alliances and break the code of hospitality.

It will be interesting how they do it in the TV series given that they've aged up Robb considerably from the naive 16-year-old. It won't be believable that he's just got horny over a girl imho.