[Book Spoilers] "Anyone can be killed..."

[Bastard of Boston]

It kind of amuses (as in dumbfounds) me how people are still so up-in-arms over this "Commoners cannot speak to the highborn this way!" mentality. It began last week, with Talisa and Robb. And, now, I feel like it's gotten to the point where people are not even allowing themselves to appreciate electric acting because of it. As if we truly can't suspend disbelief on this issue when we can just as easily allow our imaginations to accept dragons and magic. But, no, we cannot accept that Tywin and Arya would interact.

The reason why Arya was "allowed" to speak so brazenly to Tywin is simple. The scene was electric. The actors were exceptional. The tension was palpable. And, it was a *moment* these shows exist for. What's the point in having two talents like Charles Dance and Maisie Williams if they're not even allowed to address one another?

Is it really so hard to suspend disbelief for 5 minutes and assume Tywin allowed Arya's impudence because he's amused by it? This man -- who so often seems like he's bored with everything -- might genuinely be entertained by this little girl, who poses absolutely no threat to him? At least in his eyes. This show should be encouraged to showcase these moments with its talented cast.

[Laohu]

I wish I had more to add to the discussion here since this was probably my favorite scene from episode 5, but it seems like most of you have already covered all the points I have to make.

Bottom line, Tywin is not going to take any threat from this little girl THAT seriously, regardless of how impressed he is with the size of the BALLS she has. I mean, wow, holy shit, Maisie's Arya is simply amazing. That does not take anything away from Charles Dance either. His glare of death would have made me looking like Hot Pie after he narrowly avoided getting picked for torture. The Arya/Tywin scenes together are simply captivating. I am going to savor every moment they have at Harrenhal together. I am definitely looking forward to seeing where they take this relationship next episode.

[Honey Badger]

Glad I wasn't the only one who noticed. Westeros is a land where threatening a high lord with "anyone can be killed," while just outing yourself as a Northerner, can get you executed as a matter of course. Even Ilyn Payne did less and got his tongue removed. Also stupid that crazy girl who just threatened you is now charged with finding water for my lord. Absurd.

This show, at certain points, is too obvious. The Wire felt very much like a subtle show that was adapted from a book, although most of it was spun from whole cloth, with interjected scenes from previous work (good night hoppers, good night schemers and dope fiends ...). The scene with Tywin was indeed "cool," but borderline too up its own ass and completely unrealistic. It defies logic, and has no contextual reason for existing inside that world. Arya/Arry/Mouse needed to stay quiet throughout that sequence, as in the books she had to beware of being found out, or get herself flayed, beaten or tortured. Yet here she's completely bold with one of the most powerful men in Westeros. It's too precious.

[Honey Badger]

Is it really so hard to suspend disbelief for 5 minutes and assume Tywin allowed Arya's impudence because he's amused by it? This man -- who so often seems like he's bored with everything -- might genuinely be entertained by this little girl, who poses absolutely no threat to him?

More like 500 minutes if you're being honest. The show has thrown out the carefully constructed book world where peasants do not speak out of turn, because little people are unjustly punished when they speak out of turn. If you accept that the TV show is more of a comic book or action movie style adaptation, and not attempting to be realistic, then so be it. They've really disregarded the power dynamic between lord and peasant.

[gogorath]

Best. Scene. Ever.

The look between Tywin Lannister and Arya Stark sent chills racing up my spine. I feel they have found a very special chemistry in their acting and I have SO looked forward to that moment ever since we learned they'd changed the story to make Arya Tywin's cup bearer instead of Bolton's. While the Roose Bolton / Arya exchange was essentially the same, it seemed way waaaay more scary with Tywin saying those lines. So much electric charged tension... so much unsaid threat and promise, revenge, blood, seething hatred. All from a little girl and an old man.

Freaking amazing.

I agree, and I'd just like to thank you for posting a thread that didn't involve book to show comparisons.

Just an amazing scene.

[iheartseverus]

In defense of Tywin (errrmmm, am I saying those words...?), most battle commanders in these kinds of situations are all about 'rah, rah, go get-em, we're the best!' It always reminds me of football coaches. NOT Daddy Lannister. He finds a little Northerner in the prisoner swamp, brings her inside the big house, and then questions her about what the Northerners are saying... He's not looking for 'rah-rah, we're the best' crap, he wants to hear what the enemy is thinking, he's probing, probing, looking for a weakness.

And it makes me sick to think about, truly it does, but I think tv-Ayra gave it to him. 'Anybody Can Be Killed.' I think/fear HBO is setting it up that her words in that moment gave him the perfect answer. He's losing badly to Robb, Robb's troops love him, the war is dragging on and on--how to make a quick end to everything? Simple. A little girl gave him the answer--Anybody Can Be Killed. His snake-cold stare at her didn't seem to me that he was hearing a personal threat from her--it seemed to me that he was hearing... an idea. Anybody Can Be Killed. Honestly, I saw in his eyes the wheels, gears, cogs we see in the opening credits, gears within gears, plans within plans. Anybody Can Be Killed. Tywin heard it, from a Northerner, and he took it in--began to work with it. But, how to do it? How to do it? I believe HBO is setting the stage that this was the moment RW was conceived In Tywin's mind. And the cruel irony is that in HBO's version, tv-Ayra provided the spark.

George is unbearably cruel to the Starks. But, HBO? You guys are.. you're just.. I can't even.. I mean, I can't.. honest to god...

If my interpretation is on target, when Tywin gets the news after RW, he will do his snake-cold stare and say: Anybody Can Be Killed

[gogorath]

While I love these two actors, I thought the scene was terrible and blatantly insulting to the spirit of Martin's work. Changing things from the books is fine, altering characters and plots can be necessary for the sake of the show, but a ridiculous scene like this goes against the basic, core nature of these stories.

Everyone in the room would have felt that tension. A peasant girl just lied to the Lord of Casterly Rock, revealed she was actually from the North, and then stared him down. There was, as you said,

which was obvious to all of us watching, and certainly would have been apparent to Lord Tywin- and his reaction to that is to put her in charge of what he drinks. Absurd. This felt like something that belonges in a summer blockbuster, not a brutally honest story that gives us Ned's death and the Red Wedding.

I often find myself drawing comparisons between Game of Thrones and The Wire, because The Wire is one of the few shows I've ever seen on television that approaches the level of complexity and intelligence found in the ASOIAF novels. In one episode of The Wire, a leading drug dealer played by the famous and charismatic rapper Method Man and his people are meeting with another criminal to make a business deal. Method Man's character starts giving a dramatic speech about how all the other players in the drug game in town have fallen, except for him. He's got a pistol in his hand with all eyes are focused on him, the biggest man in the room, saying that now it is HIS time, and is halfway through a sentence when one of his subordinates pulls out a gun and blows a hole through his skull.

ASOIAF has always been honest. It isn't the place where children get to make cool speeches and the whole room sits back and says "Damn, that was dramatic, that little kid sure is a badass." Anyone can be killed. And when you're a peasant lying to, staring down, and threatening Lord Tywin Lannister, Shield of Lannisport and Warden of the West, you're killed pretty quickly.

Is your view of Tywin Lannister a sadist, or a practical man? He was looking of a way to impress upon his bannermen the view the North had of Robb and the threat he presented. He has no fear of Arya and why would he? Do small girls carry poison on them? Do any of them suddenly become assassins on their own initiative? History is certainly littered with the remains of men done in by small children servants...oh, wait.

Tywin was dealing with a young girl, and if you actually pay attention to the conversation, aside from an understandable lie, there's absolutely no reason why a man like Tywin Lannister would kill her, whip or do any such thing, especially when she said exactly what he wanted her to.

What, did you think his dismissal of Random Lannister right before was wasted time?

Furthermore, there's no staring down. She's answering his question and looking at him. You seem to have Tywin as a guy who would take a look held three seconds long by a small girl and kill her. There's absolutely no evidence Tywin is like this.

[gogorath]

In defense of Tywin (errrmmm, am I saying those words...?), most battle commanders in these kinds of situations are all about 'rah, rah, go get-em, we're the best!' It always reminds me of football coaches. NOT Daddy Lannister. He finds a little Northerner in the prisoner swamp, brings her inside the big house, and then questions her about what the Northerners are saying... He's not looking for 'rah-rah, we're the best' crap, he wants to hear what the enemy is thinking, he's probing, probing, looking for a weakness.

And it makes me sick to think about, truly it does, but I think tv-Ayra gave it to him. 'Anybody Can Be Killed.' I think/fear HBO is setting it up that her words in that moment gave him the perfect answer. He's losing badly to Robb, Robb's troops love him, the war is dragging on and on--how to make a quick end to everything? Simple. A little girl gave him the answer--Anybody Can Be Killed. His snake-cold stare at her didn't seem to me that he was hearing a personal threat from her--it seemed to me that he was hearing... an idea. Anybody Can Be Killed. Honestly, I saw in his eyes the wheels, gears, cogs we see in the opening credits, gears within gears, plans within plans. Anybody Can Be Killed. Tywin heard it, from a Northerner, and he took it in--began to work with it. But, how to do it? How to do it? I believe HBO is setting the stage that this was the moment RW was conceived In Tywin's mind. And the cruel irony is that in HBO's version, tv-Ayra provided the spark.

George is unbearably cruel to the Starks. But, HBO? You guys are.. you're just.. I can't even.. I mean, I can't.. honest to god...

If my interpretation is on target, when Tywin gets the news after RW, he will do his snake-cold stare and say: Anybody Can Be Killed

While something like this may happen (though probably not quite in that way), but I really doubt Arya gave Tywin Lannister the incredibly unknown option of assassination.

[Ser Giant]

Pretty sure someone like Tywin Lannister knows that "anybody can be killed" and I can almost gaurantee that assassination crossed his mind the second he knew Ned's head came off.

[BoldAsYouPlease]

While I love these two actors, I thought the scene was terrible and blatantly insulting to the spirit of Martin's work. Changing things from the books is fine, altering characters and plots can be necessary for the sake of the show, but a ridiculous scene like this goes against the basic, core nature of these stories.

Everyone in the room would have felt that tension. A peasant girl just lied to the Lord of Casterly Rock, revealed she was actually from the North, and then stared him down.

This is a good point, though I liked the scene anyway. Fine acting can sometimes overcome an otherwise implausible scene, and that was the case (for me anyway) watching Dance and young Maisie Williams.

I often find myself drawing comparisons between Game of Thrones and The Wire, because The Wire is one of the few shows I've ever seen on television that approaches the level of complexity and intelligence found in the ASOIAF novels.

I'm firmly of the belief that the first four seasons of The Wire were the best television drama ever produced (I won't make that claim for the 5th season). I'd argue that The Wire considerably exceeded the level of complexity and intelligence in the ASoIaF novels - the story lines were partly based on the real experiences of Ed Harris as a Baltimore cop and then as a teacher in the Baltimore school system. There was no possibility of creating drama through magic or royal intrigue or mysterious noble origins.

And yet, The Wire consistently delivered multiple intelligent, complex story-lines which took several seasons to reach their climax with a truly enormous cast of characters. The stories presented viewers with real tragedies, often appalling violence and death, humor and camaraderie, self-sacrifice, love and redemption - everything that I assume GoT would like to provide. And HBO audiences watched the show and grew in size every season - no brains were fried, no stories needed to be dumbed down.

I always remember The Wire whenever someone claims that this or that needs to be dropped or needlessly altered "because it's television". Nonsense. Television doesn't require bad writing and dumb compromises at all - this is just an excuse for bad decisions made in the writing meetings of GoT.

[iheartseverus]

While something like this may happen (though probably not quite in that way), but I really doubt Arya gave Tywin Lannister the incredibly unknown option of assassination.

Not 'incredibly unknown' of course. :rolleyes: Just that HBO is putting Ayra into the plot. sigh...

[theotherserge]

Here's a thought: Tywin knew she was from the north and therefore did not have cause to love him for his part of the war and the turmoil of her homelands. Plus, he'd lose face if he changed his mind as having her a his cupbearer after trying to make a point to his men that the smallfolk can be of use - even untrained little girls. Plus, he asked her for her thoughts. Don't ask a question if you're not ready to hear the answer.

Seems like he was giving her some benefit of the doubt for being uncouth.

I think it shows/demonstrates that Tywin is a very self-confident, self-assured non-idiot; unlike the dolts he's surrounded by. For instance: he has to put his Imp son to work to bring his daughter/"grandson" to heel. Think of Joffery's reaction vs Tywin's: he's not going to show weakness over the implied threat from a commoner girl because he has huge balls of gold and isn't afraid of anyone, despite being a serial loser in one battle after another.

Makes me kind of sad that he's a marked man in the series...

[summer_stark]

I loved this scene. I was a bit worried about the match up, but I think it will be fun -- I too was a bit thrown about how she won't pick him, and why he wasn't her first choice, but I can let it slide because I loved the scene and think they're doing a great job (if they cut out weasel soup tho, I'll be pissed)

So nothing really new to add except -- a The Wire rant:

What is everyone's obsession with The Wire?? Seriously. Aside from Stringer and Omar, I thought it wasn't really that groundbreaking. I watched it just this past summer -- marathon style, and what struck me was that every season it was about...the wire! literally. and the whole mcnulty thing the final season -- wow. terrible. (granted, most people think the 5th season wasn't great, but still). i wonder if people went back and watched the wire now, if they would think it was as awesome as they did then. i.e., I wonder if this is a function of groundbreaking for the time, or whether it really is amazing as is. (I say this b/c I saw the entire series after season 1 of GoT, and I didn't think it was even close to as awesome as GoT in terms of groundbreaking, unpredictable narrative). I felt like the stringer v. avon issue was super predictable (granted, a good bad guy was fun to watch and maybe new for the time, but now, would we think a stringer bell is so completely novel?) omar was great too and his story arc was interesting, but *shrug* not really that groundbreaking either (except for one particular scene that I won't spoil). i just found the whole we're up against the higher ups every season to get "the wire" going to be really really tedious. same shit. different season.

[Dragon greyscale]

I'm firmly of the belief that the first four seasons of The Wire were the best television drama ever produced (I won't make that claim for the 5th season). I'd argue that The Wire considerably exceeded the level of complexity and intelligence in the ASoIaF novels

Agreed, because

There was no possibility of creating drama through magic or royal intrigue or mysterious noble origins.

But then I disagree with your conclusion;

Television doesn't require bad writing and dumb compromises at all - this is just an excuse for bad decisions made in the writing meetings of GoT.

Because the magic and mysterious origins you referenced earlier are already in the books; not in the writing staff meetings of HBO.

I honestly get tired of people comparing the Wire to GoT because

1) the Wire was terrific because of REALISM... People compared it to a social documentary. No way that applies to dragons and face-changers.

2) the comparisons are superficial because they are often only about the amount of characters and plotlines. No one takes into account, for instance, that the Wire was succesful in showing the way different worlds were actually interwoven and affected each other. In GoT, we still just have several scattered stories and many do not affect each other directly (dany&jon are obvious examples).

Referencing the Wire seems to be the purist shield against changes in the adaptation. No one is saying that TV can't be complex. It's just that more characters and more little details =/ complexity. Complexity is, among other things, about character development, emotional upheaval and moral ambiguity. It's not about a larger cast and more events.

[victim]

I don't think the "anyone can be killed" line was exactly what Tywin was fishing for but really it's only a threat that us, as the audience, understand given that we know who Arya is and Tywin does not. That is to say that it is even a "threat" in the first place. Someone mentioned that Arya may not see Tywin as a huge threat so to speak; he's certainly of no threat to her - whereas the Tickler was - and she may not yet realise what a gigantic threat he is to her older brother before it is too late.

[WildlingGirl]

It kind of amuses (as in dumbfounds) me how people are still so up-in-arms over this "Commoners cannot speak to the highborn this way!" mentality. [...]

The reason why Arya was "allowed" to speak so brazenly to Tywin is simple. The scene was electric. The actors were exceptional. The tension was palpable. And, it was a *moment* these shows exist for. What's the point in having two talents like Charles Dance and Maisie Williams if they're not even allowed to address one another?

Is it really so hard to suspend disbelief for 5 minutes and assume Tywin allowed Arya's impudence because he's amused by it? This man -- who so often seems like he's bored with everything -- might genuinely be entertained by this little girl, who poses absolutely no threat to him? At least in his eyes. This show should be encouraged to showcase these moments with its talented cast.

This.

Tywin doesn't perceive Arya as a threat. He doesn't know who she is. He only sees a terrified young peasant girl with enough brains to poster as a boy so as to avoid being raped and killed. He's amused by that, and willing to explore just why she did it. I always saw Tywin as interested in people out of the ordinary, as he perceives himself to be, and bored by the mediocrity around him.

Even if Tywin suspected who she was however, she'd only have motive in his eyes, but highborn girls are no assassins - they're bred to wed and bear children, and are not taught how to be independent and survivors.

Hence Tywin in my view would never perceive a little girl as a threat. He keeps her around for amusement purposes.

Simple. A little girl gave him the answer--Anybody Can Be Killed. His snake-cold stare at her didn't seem to me that he was hearing a personal threat from her--it seemed to me that he was hearing... an idea. Anybody Can Be Killed. Honestly, I saw in his eyes the wheels, gears, cogs we see in the opening credits, gears within gears, plans within plans. Anybody Can Be Killed. Tywin heard it, from a Northerner, and he took it in--began to work with it.

Wow, I didn't think of this, but I think you're bang on the money, iheartseverus. *chills*

[Gryz the BlackSmith]

I liked the TV scene. It was fun to watch.

But when you think about it, it wasn't right. In the books, the whole theme of the Harrenhal chapters was: constant fear of getting killed for no reason at all. Just looking at the wrong person at the wrong time could be fatal. And the only way to survive is to not be noticed. With so many lunatics amongst the Mountain's men, you can never be sure that one of them suddenly gets the urge to torture or kill you. So Gendry and Arya hang low. They try to be invisible. The Tywin/Arya scene completely removes that theme, imho.

Another weird effect is this. For Tywin Lannister, the war with Rob Stark is his prime concern. His second concern is getting his son Jaime back. One of the main methods to get him back would have been to trade Jaime for one or more Starks. They got Sansa, but Arya is missing. He is aware of that. Tyrion and a few others have been discussing such a trade. If only they had Ayra. And suddenly, in front of Tywin is a group of refugees/travelers known to be coming from King's Landing, with a girl from the North who tries to hide her own identity ? That should ring bells inside Tywin's head immediately. The first thing he would do is sent Ayra to the Tickler and torture her to get her real name out. For me, this would be the logical followup of the Tywin/Arya scene. But that won't be happening in the tv-series.

This is one of the small details why I think you can't just add or change small things from the books. Martin took years to write a book. I am sure he thought of the consistency of every scene (knowingly, or maybe even, after all these years, unconsciously).

[Onion Smuggler]

Being a bit of a purist, I actually don't think that scene was that out of place. Granted Tywin has replaced Roose but he asked her what she thought. Firstly she didn't want to reveal she was a Northerner, obviously Tywin knew otherwise, but it was understandable she didn't want to reveal that. He then asks what the northerners say about Robb, so she answers and he asks again what she thinks, she gives him an honest answer. I think the GRRM's Tywin would respect the courage she showed to speak to him.

[Independent George]

I think we're imputing our knowledge into the characters. The reason "Anyone can be killed" is so chilling is because we can read so many different meanings into the it, based on what we know of the characters and the story.

Because we know it's Arya, the "Stabbity Stark" (as they put it at TWOP), of course we see the veiled threat as she stares him down coldly. But neither Tywin, nor any of his council, have any way of knowing this, or any reason to suspect that she's not merely answering his question and referring to Robb.

To say that a Lord would punish a commoner for the threat misses the point: he doesn't know it's a threat. He can't know it's a threat. We know something Tywin doesn't, and that turns the meaning of what he just heard completely on its head. The whole reason the scene works on such a visceral level is because both of the way both meanings collide with each other.

[LifeRuiner]

I don't think that Arya came off as blatantly threatening. It might have looked like it from our omniscient view but not to Tywin. It looked more like Tywin had a doubt about whether the little girl was saying what the little girl couldn't possibly be saying. And as if he thought about how true her words were.

A brilliant scene, in the end.