124 replies to this topic

[gogorath]

Huh?  The theme of the Harrenhal chapters was "lie low?"

I'm pretty sure the whole point of those chapters is that Arya is beginning to find a way to take control of her life again -- initially through the agency of Jaqen H'gar, then by turning the tables on him and asserting herself.

Holding the gaze of Tywin Lannister is a tiny little step of taking control of her situation.  Having Jaqen kill the Tickler is the next.  Right up through Weasel Soup and eventually her leaving Harrenhal on her own terms.

[Milgod morghulis]

Ser Greguh, on 01 May 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Wait, people are actually expecting that Tywin Freaking Lannister, the richest, most powerful Lord in the Seven Kingdoms, to interpret the statement of "anyone can be killed" as a threat?  The man is arrogance personified. The thought that a lowly cupbearer is even capable of threatening him would never even occur to him.

It was a fantastic scene.  It speaks to Arya's state of mind, shows Tywin's pragmatism, and sets up an epic moment a few episodes down the road when Tywin learns that Arya escaped and puts it together.

Couldn't say anymore than that. Spot on.

[Morrigan]

Ser Greguh, on 01 May 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Wait, people are actually expecting that Tywin Freaking Lannister, the richest, most powerful Lord in the Seven Kingdoms, to interpret the statement of "anyone can be killed" as a threat?  The man is arrogance personified.  The thought that a lowly cupbearer is even capable of threatening him would never even occur to him.

Exactly.
Besides, Tywin would have interpreted that as, "this girl is smart enough to know that stories of invincible wolf-riders are just that, stories, and even the Young Wolf battle-winning Robb Stark can be killed". The viewers, from our omniscient POV, would know Arya meant it as a veiled threat, because we know she has Jaqen on her side, but Tywin has no way of knowing that and he wouldn't ever feel threatened by a child servant anyway. People complaining about the scene are missing the point.

[boojam]

Lannes, on 30 April 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

I don't think the scene was out of character for Tywin either.

Remember, Tywin is, above all things, smart. And most smart people ask questions and then listen.

Absolutely amazing scene and maybe my favorite from the 2 seasons so far.

I think D&D have created a very complex dynamic.
Remember in the books high born can recognize other high born by level of elocution and diction.
Tywin notices some inflection or accent that marks Arya as northern, then tries to get her to revel what house she is from. All she admits to is  being from Maidenpool which is in the Riverlands, so he knows that's not the right answer.  Then she says Barrowton and knows its House Dustin and it's sigil, but she never admits she is of House Dustin.
Does he suspect she is a Stark? She is apparently someone out of the ordinary ... obviously not of the small people, she does not grovel or use the wrong language or flinch.
Tywin likes spunk and seemingly the aristocracy so he seems to like her.
I am thinking he has her pegged for Arya Stark ... boy! how are D&D going to wangle their way through this one?
I could be he figures she can't get away and maybe even leaves someone to watch her , when he leaves, but Jaqen can take care of that.
Odd, he just calls her 'girl' ,never asking her name.
Complicated.

One has to think what Charles Dance thinks of Maisie Williams?
He won his spurs at Royal Shakespeare Company , I think he will recommend her.

Edited by boojam, 02 May 2012 - 08:04 PM.

[Dragonstar]

This scene absolutely slayed it. For a young actress to bring so much unspoken menace to a scene - and to foreshadow so much - is astounding.

Guys - the series is an ADAPTATION. Thankfully they have decided to stay faithful in places and take liberties in others. A literal page-by-page recreation would not make for compelling television. Tom Bombadil did not make it into the LOTR movies, and many scenes in the books and movies were markedly different - but no one can argue that the movies stayed true to the spirit of the books, and that they also stand as works of art on their own as well.
I'm so pleased with this season - so much more action, flawless acting and great casting. If I get frustrated with Dany, it is only in the same way that I get frustrated with her in the books.

[The Knight of Grasses]

Best scene in the episode.  Maybe in the season.  Loved it.

As for whether or not it's realistic, I think there's an argument to be made either way, and given how fantastic a scene it was, I choose believability.  Here's my rationale:

First, Tywin has already praised Arya for playacting to survive.  Why would it be any different when she lies about her heritage?  He doesn't have anything to fear from her.  She's a servant girl.  He appreciates her moxie as long as she's not a threat.  And there's not reason to think of a 10-year-old girl as a threat to Tywin F***ing Lannister.

Second, Tywin asks her a question and Arya responds.  It's possible that in their staredown afterwards, he's sizing her up, asking himself why this little girl would doubt the invincibility of her King.  Or maybe a realization that this girl's life has been completely torn apart by war; of COURSE she would be fatalistic about that kind of thing.

Third, even if he does interpret her statement as insolence, there's a fine line he needs to walk.  On the one hand, he doesn't want to allow talkback from his servants.  But on the other, it would seem fairly pathetic for Tywin to allow a little girl to get him upset in front of his captains.  He can be brutal, yes, but that brutality always seems to be cool and calculated, purposeful.  You would never see Tywin Lannister over-react to some meaningless comment from a serving girl.

I thought the scene fit both characters perfectly.  Most other lords would have backhanded Arya, or worse.  But Tywin is different.  He rarely acts out of passion.

And Arya is just a bad ass.

[lyvyathan]

boojam, on 02 May 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

One has to think what Charles Dance thinks of Maisie Williams?
He won his spurs at Royal Shakespeare Company , I think he will recommend her.

I suspect he thinks of her very highly.

Postscript - actually he in fact does - I just saw the interview where CD complements Williams.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=qEzpu4H9gGg

Look at her - can she act!!! While she is still a very young actor she is still holding her own against Dance and its so beautiful to watch the two in action.

They are such incredible actors that even if they killed off the entire cast and had them act in a offshoot subplot of ASOIAF, I'd still watch it. Thank God for HBO!!!!

Edited by lyvyathan, 04 May 2012 - 07:23 PM.

[boojam]

Dragonstar, on 02 May 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

Guys - the series is an ADAPTATION. Thankfully they have decided to stay faithful in places and take liberties in others. A literal page-by-page recreation would not make for compelling television. Tom Bombadil did not make it into the LOTR movies, and many scenes in the books and movies were markedly different - but no one can argue that the movies stayed true to the spirit of the books, and that they also stand as works of art on their own as well.
I'm so pleased with this season - so much more action, flawless acting and great casting. If I get frustrated with Dany, it is only in the same way that I get frustrated with her in the books.

Thank god! that Tom Bombadil did not make it into LTOR, I almost stopped reading Fellowship of the Ring when that story killing character came up. Peter Jackson left him out for time's sake, he says, but I think he recognized he was a character that needed the hook!

[boojam]

The Knight of Grasses, on 03 May 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

Best scene in the episode.  Maybe in the season.  Loved it.

As for whether or not it's realistic, I think there's an argument to be made either way, and given how fantastic a scene it was, I choose believability.  Here's my rationale:

First, Tywin has already praised Arya for playacting to survive.  Why would it be any different when she lies about her heritage?  He doesn't have anything to fear from her.  She's a servant girl.  He appreciates her moxie as long as she's not a threat.  And there's not reason to think of a 10-year-old girl as a threat to Tywin F***ing Lannister.

Second, Tywin asks her a question and Arya responds.  It's possible that in their staredown afterwards, he's sizing her up, asking himself why this little girl would doubt the invincibility of her King.  Or maybe a realization that this girl's life has been completely torn apart by war; of COURSE she would be fatalistic about that kind of thing.

Third, even if he does interpret her statement as insolence, there's a fine line he needs to walk.  On the one hand, he doesn't want to allow talkback from his servants.  But on the other, it would seem fairly pathetic for Tywin to allow a little girl to get him upset in front of his captains.  He can be brutal, yes, but that brutality always seems to be cool and calculated, purposeful.  You would never see Tywin Lannister over-react to some meaningless comment from a serving girl.

I thought the scene fit both characters perfectly.  Most other lords would have backhanded Arya, or worse.  But Tywin is different.  He rarely acts out of passion.

And Arya is just a bad ass.

It's noticeable that this all comes just seconds after he has dismissed one of his officers and a relative for being a wimp.

I would note one thing, in interviews Dance has said that D&D wanted to make Tywin a less one dimensional character than in the books. Not going to be a softie but more complex.
With Dance in your cast you can mine that gold.

[Sirielle]

Morrigan, on 02 May 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

The viewers, from our omniscient POV, would know Arya meant it as a veiled threat, because we know she has Jaqen on her side

Not yet, when the scene happens she doesn't know of his presence yet. Sure readers do now what can happen later, but not the non-reading audience. And definitely TV-Aria has no idea of chances in front of her. If this happened after the talk with Jaqen and Ticker's death, then it would have been a threat. As it happened it was Arya realizing no one is safe.

[imbs]

lyvyathan, on 03 May 2012 - 03:39 AM, said:

I suspect he thinks of her very highly.

Look at her - can she act!!! While she is still a very young actor she is still holding her own against Dance and its so beautiful to watch the two in action.

They are such incredible actors that even if they killed off the entire cast and had them act in a offshoot subplot of ASOIAF, I'd still watch it. Thank God for HBO!!!!

There was an interview with Maisie where the interviewer says that she is Dance's favourite actor in the series. How true that is i don't know for sure, but it isn't suprising really. Maisie has been amazing and if you compare her to other similarly aged actors in other medias like Harry Potter, it is obvious that she is in a completely different league.

[lyvyathan]

Yes, it

imbs, on 03 May 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

There was an interview with Maisie where the interviewer says that she is Dance's favourite actor in the series. How true that is i don't know for sure, but it isn't suprising really. Maisie has been amazing and if you compare her to other similarly aged actors in other medias like Harry Potter, it is obvious that she is in a completely different league.

Yes it is. I googled it and its on youtube. Here's the link: (But if the link gets damaged - just google Charles Dance Game of Thrones interview)

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=qEzpu4H9gGg

[Jennelyn]

Loved the scene! Was it realistic? It seems to me unlikely that he would converse or care much for his cupbearer. The fact that he was asking the questions made me think he knew she was Arya. As for him letting her speak to him in that way, I didn't see this as a threat to him at all. He asked questions, she answered honestly. I would think he liked the way she answered. No, I don't believe he can't be killed, because anyone can be killed. The girl is grounded and doesn't believe in silly stories. Tywin's kind of girl!

[House Snow]

Put me in the who cares if it was realistic camp.  Sometimes you got to make a scene just because it would be awesome.  I don't know if Littlefinger and Varys would banter like they did in season 1 either, but it was awesome to watch.  And I totally endorse the writers making chance meetingss by awesome players occur in the future, even if they don't happen in the book.  Lighten up people.

[Morrigan]

Sirielle, on 03 May 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

Not yet, when the scene happens she doesn't know of his presence yet. Sure readers do now what can happen later, but not the non-reading audience. And definitely TV-Aria has no idea of chances in front of her. If this happened after the talk with Jaqen and Ticker's death, then it would have been a threat. As it happened it was Arya realizing no one is safe.

Oh, good call. So people have even less reasons to complain about the scene, really.

[arya horsefaceless]

iheartseverus, on 30 April 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

In defense of Tywin (errrmmm, am I saying those words...?), most battle commanders in these kinds of situations are all about 'rah, rah, go get-em, we're the best!' It always reminds me of football coaches. NOT Daddy Lannister. He finds a little Northerner in the prisoner swamp, brings her inside the big house, and then questions her about what the Northerners are saying... He's not looking for 'rah-rah, we're the best' crap, he wants to hear what the enemy is thinking, he's probing, probing, looking for a weakness.

And it makes me sick to think about, truly it does, but I think tv-Ayra gave it to him. 'Anybody Can Be Killed.' I think/fear HBO is setting it up that her words in that moment gave him the perfect answer. He's losing badly to Robb, Robb's troops love him, the war is dragging on and on--how to make a quick end to everything? Simple. A little girl gave him the answer--Anybody Can Be Killed. His snake-cold stare at her didn't seem to me that he was hearing a personal threat from her--it seemed to me that he was hearing... an idea. Anybody Can Be Killed. Honestly, I saw in his eyes the wheels, gears, cogs we see in the opening credits, gears within gears, plans within plans. Anybody Can Be Killed. Tywin heard it, from a Northerner, and he took it in--began to work with it. But, how to do it? How to do it?  I believe HBO is setting the stage that this was the moment RW was conceived In Tywin's mind. And the cruel irony is that in HBO's version, tv-Ayra provided the spark.[/color]

George is unbearably cruel to the Starks. But, HBO? You guys are.. you're just.. I can't even.. I mean, I can't.. honest to god...

If my interpretation is on target,  when Tywin gets the news after RW, he will do his snake-cold stare and say: Anybody Can Be Killed

This...the first thing I thought of with this scene is the Red Wedding.

[Storms End]

salt, on 30 April 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

ASOIAF has always been honest.  It isn't the place where children get to make cool speeches and the whole room sits back and says "Damn, that was dramatic, that little kid sure is a badass."  Anyone can be killed.  And when you're a peasant lying to, staring down, and threatening Lord Tywin Lannister, Shield of Lannisport and Warden of the West, you're killed pretty quickly.

To be honest he allowed her to speak her mind, and I think he understood only too well why she lied, she feared if she said she was from the north she'd be harmed, he's not stupid.

I doubt he'd start what seemed to be an important and long war council with the random killing of a serving girl, it proves no point and it's not his style.

Some people are too uptight about changes, the author himself accepts it and enjoys it, if you have reason to doubt I suggest you watch this interview, http://www.youtube.c...&feature=g-vrec

Edited by Storms End, 04 May 2012 - 07:22 PM.

[Holmes]

Thought the scene was pretty good, but:

1. If I was Tywin, and some little girl had just given me the stinkeye and claimed "anyone can be killed", you bet your bottom dollar it would be her.

2. I'm trying to get away from book purity, but I'm re-reading ACoK, and Arya sees a northman up on the walls of Harrenhal, sees his sigil, doesn't know it, and recalls being bored and unattentive during lessons from their Septa and wishing the lesson would end.  Sansa would know, she thinks.  But she doesn't.  She only knows Lord Cerwyn.   So her whole Maidenpool/Dustin line is totally out of character for her.

[Brian Of Tard]

Holmes, on 04 May 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

Thought the scene was pretty good, but:

1. If I was Tywin, and some little girl had just given me the stinkeye and claimed "anyone can be killed", you bet your bottom dollar it would be her.

2. I'm trying to get away from book purity, but I'm re-reading ACoK, and Arya sees a northman up on the walls of Harrenhal, sees his sigil, doesn't know it, and recalls being bored and unattentive during lessons from their Septa and wishing the lesson would end.  Sansa would know, she thinks.  But she doesn't.  She only knows Lord Cerwyn.   So her whole Maidenpool/Dustin line is totally out of character for her.

I too thought that scene was brilliant.

To 1): "Anyone can be killed" was the exact answer Tywin wanted to hear. When she says that line, he is actually looking at his lords and smiling. It is only something in her following stare that makes him ... uncomfortable, or irritated (not necessarily threatened). There is tension, but nothing really tangible for him.

And 2): That she doesn't know every random northern sigil doesn't mean she doesn't know ANY northern sigil. Dustin is one of the major northern houses, like Bolton or Manderly. She has to know the sigils from those houses, if not from lessons, then from daily life at least. At that moment, she can freely choose, and she choses a house where she happens to know the sigil.

Other thoughts:

- Tywin now knows that she is from somewhere in the North, but not from Barrowtown. Probably highborn. (that second lie came too freely and without hesitation, he will see through that)
- It will be interesting to see how / why Tywin doesn't follow the Tickler in Aryas list.
- "Anyone can be killed" was, in my opinion, definitely meant as a threat. It was, I think, at least half-recognized as such (by Tywin himself, not by anyone else present). It will be interesting to see why Arya doesn't end up on Tywins "list" either.

[nubreed000]

I'm more curious as to how/why Tywin won't be picked as 1 of the remaining 2 "death wishes" Arya has from Jaqen. VERRRRY curious how the producers will get out of that 1. Arya isn't stupid. She knows that taking out Tywin would pretty much guarantee victory for her brother.