124 replies to this topic

[Completely Headless Ned]

Tywin probably wouldn't take the threat too seriously. if he didn't take his son holding a crossbow at him and telling him not to call Tysha a whore or he'd kill him seriously. How is going to take Arya seriously?

[Brave Ser Robin]

I believe the main intent of the scene is not the interaction between Tywin and Arya.  The intent is to setup what is becoming the main story arc for Arya, that is, the path leading to the house of Black and White (and beyond).  Combine that scene with her interaction with the Faceless Man Jaqen H'ghar, with  the murder of The Tickler, with Arya's telling Gendry that if he is practicing for combat, he needs to do it right.

The director crafted the scene perfectly from that perspective.  Arya delivers the statement "Anyone can be killed" not as a threat, but with a cold expression that reveals her desensitazation to killing, foreshadowing what is to come.  Chilling.

Edited by Brave Ser Robin, 30 April 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[7V3N]

Just excellent. Me and my two roommates (all readers) went "Ooooooo!!!!" shaking our heads (as if shivers went down our spines. No joke, we all did it at the same time. Perfect scene, perfect Arya, perfect Tywin.

[bikie]

my favorite scene of the HBO series... and I don't think from tywin's POV we can assume it was that big of an affront and threat... we know who arya is and how wild and bold she is, but taken in the context of a harmless girl who is a cupbearer, she was just answering his questions and answered that robb is not what the stories about him from the north claim... and I think he's also very intrigued by arya and sees potential....

Edited by bikie, 30 April 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[7V3N]

And remember: it came from a girl who seemed too afraid to tell him she was a Northerner. I don't think Tywin ever believed he lost control of the situation, and he never felt threatened.

[Independent George]

Also - Tywin was first introduced to her as a girl who wisely disguised herself as a boy to avoid being raped on the road; he was actually impressed by the deception. If she's also a Northern girl, it makes perfect sense that she'd try to hide it while travelling through a war zone; it's also perfectly consistent for Tywin to be impressed by the the lie (especially since she managed to get his first question right). It's exactly the same as her lying about her gender, as long as she eventually comes clean when he catches her and answers truthfully when confronted by it. He has no reason to believe there's anything more to it than that.

Edited by Independent George, 30 April 2012 - 03:54 PM.

[Tadco26]

I don't think that anyone believes Tywin should have been scared of Arya's veiled threat, but realistically he wouldn't tolerate the insolence and disrespect, especially in front of his council.  Just as in season 1 when he goes to war over Tyrion because the house cannot be made to look weak, being threatened by your cup bearer in front of your bannermen would deserve punishment, even if he didn't personally feel threatened at all.  It was a very well acted scene, but it was also a pretty unrealistic one, even before the threat.  Some how I find it hard to imagine book Tywin caring what a peasant girl thinks about anything, much less interviewing her in front of the his bannermen.  Plus it completely contradicts Arya's state of mind pre-Jaqen where she is a beaten, scared mouse.

[7V3N]

Tadco26, on 30 April 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

Plus it completely contradicts Arya's state of mind pre-Jaqen where she is a beaten, scared mouse.

Yeah but with time being an issue for the series, they needed to progress things pretty quickly. I think they hit the scared thing pretty well before she was the cupbearer. Her talks with Yoren and the Tickler scenes conveyed her fear and desperation pretty well, I think.

[Pliny]

Brave Ser Robin, on 30 April 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

I believe the main intent of the scene is not the interaction between Tywin and Arya.  The intent is to setup what is becoming the main story arc for Arya, that is, the path leading to the house of Black and White (and beyond).  ...

The director crafted the scene perfectly from that perspective.  Arya delivers the statement "Anyone can be killed" not as a threat, but with a cold expression that reveals her desensitazation to killing, foreshadowing what is to come.  Chilling.

I agree. I was trying to get at this in my earlier post, but you've explained it much better. That's the way I saw it, anyway.

[Tadco26]

The Shadow Fox, on 30 April 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

Yeah but with time being an issue for the series, they needed to progress things pretty quickly. I think they hit the scared thing pretty well before she was the cupbearer. Her talks with Yoren and the Tickler scenes conveyed her fear and desperation pretty well, I think.

I agree on some levels that the need to consolidate requires some changes, but the change makes Tywin more of a savior for her than Jaqen.  I guess we shall see how they handle Weasel soup, or if it has been written out as well.

[Ser Giant]

It wasnt a threat, I think that's the mistake people are making with this quote. I viewed it as a message to the viewer on Arya's mindstate and a self-realization for her character.

[7V3N]

Tadco26, on 30 April 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

I agree on some levels that the need to consolidate requires some changes, but the change makes Tywin more of a savior for her than Jaqen.  I guess we shall see how they handle Weasel soup, or if it has been written out as well.

I hope, like everyone, that it hasn't been written out. But I'd like the show to be on point with the books like Season 1 was.

[Nebmai]

I loved the scene, until now I wasn't crazy about the Tywin - Roose change but this scene has made me glad they did it.

The scene very much captures much of the essence of the books and the series, "Anyone can be killed" is a perfect description of what sets GoT and ASoIaF apart from a majority of their respective contemporaries.

It's also major foreshadowing for both characters and its definitely showing the evolution of Arya's character from the free spirited tom boy to what she will become as the story goes on.



Also, you guys are WAY off saying the scene is unrealistic because Tywin would not let her threaten him, for fear of looking weak in front of his council.  He would look weak for taking a threat (which isn't really a threat, look back earlier in the series / books for Tyrion's clarification) from a nine - ten year old girl prisoner seriously, not the other way around.  She spoke when spoken to, he asked her questions and she answered.  He's Tywin "f*cking" Lannister not the Mad King, yo.

[Monk Meth-]

lol tywin is cruel but he wouldn't kill arya for speaking the truth he wanted her to say..

[Howdyphillip]

Tywin reacting to an 11 year old girl based solely on that comment would be out of character for him. It would have essentially been telling his bannermen that this little girl scared him. Out of all of the non canon scenes in this show, this one nailed the book personalities of both characters involved.

Tywin is a lion, and being a lion does not show fear of a weasel.

[Envie]

I really appreciate all the responses to this discussion and hearing different perspectives on how the scene fit or didn't fit their interpretation of Tywin.

Personally, I felt Tywin was weighing Arya's worth with his pointed question. He knew she was from the North which is why he challenged her with where she was from, to get her to slip up so he could get inside her head. It was also a good display for his bannermen to hear what a northern girl's impression of Robb Stark might be like... what the 'common folk' are saying and how supportive they are is very important information to know when you're waging a battle. IF the common people are willing to rise up and support him, then he has a strong claim the same as Robert Baratheon's own rebellion did. Common people do not want a king or queen they can't love, that's a common theme we see a lot in the story.

My husband wondered if maybe Tywin had a suspicion who Arya really was, but I shot that down too - there's no way he could know that because Cersei has not confessed to anyone other than Tyrion that she no longer has Arya in captivity. Tyrion even made a big scene about that a couple episodes back if you remember, when he said "It must be hard, to be the disappointing child" as a dig at Cersei for her failures.

Tywin's change in the series has been a good one, I'll agree with others that some plot changes didn't really work or make sense, but this one does and it really really works for the chemistry between Tywin and a very defiant little Arya.

Was Arya threatening Tywin? No I don't think so. I think she's pointing out that she no longer believes in 'fairy tales' and heroes as many are trying to make Robb Stark out to be with his magical Dire Wolf and all his victorious battles. He's still just a human who can die at any time, like anyone else who has died already thus far, including her Father. I really believe her Father's death is what started Arya down a path of hardened heart in regards to death. A theme which stays with her and makes her successful when she crosses the narrow sea and joins the Faceless Men.

[House Snow]

Independent George, on 30 April 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Also - Tywin was first introduced to her as a girl who wisely disguised herself as a boy to avoid being raped on the road; he was actually impressed by the deception. If she's also a Northern girl, it makes perfect sense that she'd try to hide it while travelling through a war zone; it's also perfectly consistent for Tywin to be impressed by the the lie (especially since she managed to get his first question right). It's exactly the same as her lying about her gender, as long as she eventually comes clean when he catches her and answers truthfully when confronted by it. He has no reason to believe there's anything more to it than that.

You know what wierd.  When Arya lies to Tywin about her identity everyone says its understandable.  Yet if Talisa/Jeyne  (maybe I'm wrong and she is telling the truth) lies to Robb everyone says its stupid.  Kind of double standard.

[aimlessgun]

Hrm I don't think everyone said it was stupid. I think some people who dislike the direction the show went with her character disliked it   And everyone around here is prickly about book lore, so her throwing out a random name and Volantis puts everyone on high alert for a lore screwup, which is annoying to us even if there is no screwup.

Edited by aimlessgun, 30 April 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[Brienne the Beauty]

Tadco26, on 30 April 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

I don't think that anyone believes Tywin should have been scared of Arya's veiled threat, but realistically he wouldn't tolerate the insolence and disrespect, especially in front of his council.  

Taking a threat from a peasant girl seriously enough to even have her beaten would have made him look weak.

Whoever was her boss in the kitchens should probably have had her beaten though!

[atia-]

I'm still not sure what I think of this scene.  I do know I love both of the actors though, so it's fun to watch no matter what. I have two conflicting thoughts on this.

I would suspect Tywin, like most high lords, really doesn't even acknowledge the existence of low-born people unless they have the gall to say something (like Arya to Roose when she wasn't spoken to).  From my perspective, I have always seen Tywin as very aloof and not giving a damn about most people around him, especially low-born.  I can't imagine him going up to prisoners and questioning them about their professions as soon as he arrives at Harrenhal.  I also can't imagine book Tywin caring at all what a cupbearer thinks.  And to the people that have said Tywin is ruthless but not cruel, I think he is quite cruel.  Look at the things he's done to Tyrion.  Having your guardsmen fuck the girl your son's in love with?  That's disgusting.  I don't think I ever recall him being amiable to anyone, not even his own children.  Hell, Cersei and Jaime are just pretty pawns for him.  I also think that there might have been some repercussions for Arya speaking to him like that.  It wasn't downright threatening, but she did lie to him.  I notice in the show it is a lot more common for small folk to get sassy and rude with high nobility....even kings.  

On the other hand, book Tywin is practical.  He's not a psychopath like Joffrey and will seize opportunities when he sees them.  We have never really seen him interact with small folk, so I guess we don't really know how he would act.  Maybe he would ask a cupbearer her thoughts.  That's a very Robb/Ned Stark thing to do, so maybe Tywin is like that too.  I don't know.  I kind of have a feeling the show is trying to make him more likable, but maybe that's just coincidence.  Maybe they're trying to make him even more grey and conflicting.  

Whatever.  Either way, I like TV & book Tywin, but I'm just trying to figure out if he's really that different from book Tywin, or if it's just a side of him we haven't seen in the books.