107 replies to this topic

[The Smiling Eye]

How do you think he stacks up? People like Loras Tyrell, Garlan, Jaime, do you think he could give them a good fight, and even perhaps best them in a duel?

Does the First Sword of Braavos prevail?

[Groat]

I'd have to say that Syrio would die pretty quickly to someone like Garlan or a 2 handed Jaime. Main reason is armor. The Knights of Westeros train their whole lives to fight in armor, whereas Braavosi do not. So if Syrio doesn't where armor, he is probably going to lose. If he does where armor, his lack of training would be obvious and he is probably going to lose.

Edited by Groat, 30 April 2012 - 03:29 PM.

[Darth Rivers]

Knights train to fight in armor, with all the pros and cons that come from that. So, in armor the knight wins, without armor the Bravo wins. That said, since Braavos is kind of like Venice, they might train for fighting in armor as well, since they apparently kick a lot of arse in war. But according to Victarion, most marines don't use armor because they fear drowning.

Edited by Darth Rivers, 30 April 2012 - 03:38 PM.

[Frey Pie]

Id have to agree with Groat. Overall technical ability hed be as good as any if not better i believe

[cuendillar]

He'd probably be chanceless if clad in armour. His style is way too dependent on speed and agility to not be hampered fatally. We also have a nice precedent to armour vs. unarmoured ferocity when a then 63 y.o. Barristan fairly effortlessly slays the pit fighter Khrazz.

Syrio's chance is that he's a lot more disciplined and that Khrazz had almost no experience against armoured knights. He'll fare much better and will certainly beat any average Westerosi knight. His problem is that a single good hit kills him, so I'd say men like Jaime, Garland and possibly the Mountain and Oberyn will win.

Edited by cuendillar, 30 April 2012 - 03:42 PM.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

I don't think we'll ever know.  If we had only seen him with an actual bravo's blade in hand...

Surely, the slim swords they are described using would be utterly ineffectual, if used Westerosi-style against armor.  I don't imagine Syrio would be capable of 'piercing plate', or hammering his way throught it.

But perhaps the water-dancer's sword might be able to exploit any weakness in a suit of Westerosi plate that would be too small for a typical Westerosi weapon?  After Syrio made such short work of those Lannister men with only a wooden sword, I tried to imagine what he might be able to do with a bravo's blade.  Could he get around the edges or fastenings of all that steel?  Could his blade find its way through eye slits, and other narrow openings?  Armed with true steel, could he have dispensed with Trant just as quickly and gracefully as he did the crimson cloaks?

Maybe, but we'll never know, because all he had was a wooden sword.

Edited by Tumnas the Torpid, 30 April 2012 - 03:50 PM.

[Mumatil]

One on one

One on a small group

Syrio would take the day.

But in a large scale battle, I doubt it.

Hes a duelist, not a soldier.

[James Arryn]

Mumatil, on 30 April 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

One on one

One on a small group

Syrio would take the day.

But in a large scale battle, I doubt it.

Hes a duelist, not a soldier.

In a Lepanto he'd be fine, in a Towton he wouldn't.

The Free Cities seem to mostly fight naval or marine type engagements, and his style is perfect for that. But yeah, he's not suited to taking on heavy infantry, cavalry, etc.

Someone the other day used the analogy shark vs. lion, and its apt.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Against the top tier, he'd lose. Both in armor, or both unarmored. Longsword/Greatsword has the advantage over a Bravosi blade in each case. Not a big advantage, but serious enough.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 30 April 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Against the top tier, he'd lose. Both in armor, or both unarmored. Longsword/Greatsword has the advantage over a Bravosi blade in each case. Not a big advantage, but serious enough.

I don't know if this is that definite.  Syrio wasn't just top-tier, he was top dog.  Although past his prime, he was, presumably, at one point the finest water-dancer in the world.  And, using an edgeless weapon, he dealt with a handful of armored men armed with just the weapons you ascribe an insurmountable advantage to.  I would not be surprised if Syrio were capable mopping the floor with any un-armored opponent.

[Storms End]

Syrio would get stomped by any half decent knight in armor sadly, people hype him up so hard, no matter how quick he is, his style just isn't fit for the fields of westeros, it's good for streets of braavos for dueling, but I can already picture any person wielding a 2 hander completely destroying him, or even a shield and a long.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Tumnas the Torpid, on 30 April 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

I don't know if this is that definite.  Syrio wasn't just top-tier, he was top dog.  Although past his prime, he was, presumably, at one point the finest water-dancer in the world.  And, using an edgeless weapon, he dealt with a handful of armored men armed with just the weapons you ascribe an insurmountable advantage to.  I would not be surprised if Syrio were capable mopping the floor with any un-armored opponent.

Top tier means the 10-15 best in Westeros. Westeros, whose population is probably a hundred times bigger than Braavos. And the Lannister guardsmen whose asses he kicked were neither completely armored nor wielding greatswords nor trained since they could walk. They were simply just average grunts and definitely not comparable to Jaime, Loras, Garlan, the Hound, the Mountain and the other famous swordsmen.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Storms End, on 30 April 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

Syrio would get stomped by any half decent knight in armor sadly, people hype him up so hard, no matter how quick he is, his style just isn't fit for the fields of westeros, it's good for streets of braavos for dueling, but I can already picture any person wielding a 2 hander completely destroying him, or even a shield and a long.

Weren't there men with two-handers that he subdued with a wooden sword?  Did I miss something?  They were wearing armor, and Syrio felled them - with a wooden sword.  What this suggest to me is that anyone (save perhaps the absolute cream of the swordsmen of Westeros; Jaime, Dayne, etc.) attempting to take on a fully-armed Syrio wearing anything short of the most-expensive (and protective) armor would be fucked.

As I said before, whether Syrio could hope to defeat any man wearing just such a suit of armor is a question we will never know the answer to.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 30 April 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Top tier means the 10-15 best in Westeros. Westeros, whose population is probably a hundred times bigger than Braavos. And the Lannister guardsmen whose asses he kicked were neither completely armored nor wielding greatswords nor trained since they could walk. They were simply just average grunts and definitely not comparable to Jaime, Loras, Garlan, the Hound, the Mountain and the other famous swordsmen.

Right.  And the Syrio that kicked the ass of those guardsmen was neither Syrio in armor (which would, admittedly, be a probable disadvantage to Forel, having presumably never worn it) nor Syrio wielding a bravo's blade.  He was simply Syrio armed with a wooden fucking sword.  He was surrounded by men wearing and wielding steel, and he felled all but one with a R'hllor-damned wooden bloody sword.

[Exitao]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 30 April 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Against the top tier, he'd lose. Both in armor, or both unarmored. Longsword/Greatsword has the advantage over a Bravosi blade in each case. Not a big advantage, but serious enough.

As a former fencer, I disagree.

The advantages of the long/greatswords are greatly reduced when one considers that the Bravosi doesn't block like the Westerosi does. He parries, he redirects. A Bravosi blade would block another Bravosi blade, forte to forte, but it's just not done.

Broadswords, longswords, greatswords and such don't usually need much of an edge. Armoured knights bash each other senseless until they make an opening.
Heavy weapons require full commitment to an attack. A little push to the side, the sword keeps going, now in a safer path, counter attack.

The full suit of armour is a problem. It's like Obyron and his spear. If he wears mail under the armour, it's going to be hard and a test of the blade's strength, for sure.

Partial armour, boiled leather &c, would be little obstacle for a master water dancer. Necks, eyes, thighs, groins, forearms and biceps all bleed well and cripple.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

if it were a fight like Ned & Jamie's was depicted on the show, he'd have a shot.  Otherwise, he would be at a distinct armament disadvantage.

[Words_R_Wind]

I believe an unarmored Bronn made short work of a fully armored knight in the Eyrie by making use of unencumbered speed and the local terrain.   No reason why Syrio would not also be able to use those same tactics.  

I'd put my money on Syrio.

[Artos Stark]

I think the top level guys would kill him, guys like Jaime, Garlan and Barristan.  Also guys a level below that like Bronn, Loras, Sandor, Swann, Mance, etc.  He would beat most average knights though.

Edited by Artos Stark, 30 April 2012 - 07:50 PM.

[Artos Stark]

Words_R_Wind, on 30 April 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

I believe an unarmored Bronn made short work of a fully armored knight in the Eyrie by making use of unencumbered speed and the local terrain.   No reason why Syrio would not also be able to use those same tactics.  

I'd put my money on Syrio.

Are we sure he was unarmored?  I don't remember seeing that part.  I remember it in the show but not in the books.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Artos Stark, on 30 April 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Are we sure he was unarmored?  I don't remember seeing that part.  I remember it in the show but not in the books.

Lightly armored, as I recall.  I don't believe he had any plate, which was what I took the OP to mean by 'unarmored'.