107 replies to this topic

[Storms End]

Tumnas the Torpid, on 30 April 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

Weren't there men with two-handers that he subdued with a wooden sword?  Did I miss something?  They were wearing armor, and Syrio felled them - with a wooden sword.  What this suggest to me is that anyone (save perhaps the absolute cream of the swordsmen of Westeros; Jaime, Dayne, etc.) attempting to take on a fully-armed Syrio wearing anything short of the most-expensive (and protective) armor would be fucked.

As I said before, whether Syrio could hope to defeat any man wearing just such a suit of armor is a question we will never know the answer to.

I think you missed the part where I said "Half-decent knight" not random fodder guard who get killed off like it was the first time using a sword, how does that suggest the best could only take him? He tried to deal with Meryn albeit with a wooden sword, and guess what? Syrio's RIP.

It's like Dothrak trying to take down a knight using an arack, which I found was pretty well demonstrated in the show, it's not happening to be honest.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Storms End, on 30 April 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

I think you missed the part where I said "Half-decent knight" not random fodder guard who get killed off like it was the first time using a sword, how does that suggest the best could only take him? He tried to deal with Meryn albeit with a wooden sword, and guess what? Syrio's RIP.

It's like Dothrak trying to take down a knight using an arack, which I found was pretty well demonstrated in the show, it's not happening to be honest.

1)These 'random fodder' were the men Tywin Lannister wrapped in Crimson Cloaks and charged with guarding his daughter.  They were no knights, true, but they were probably better armed, armored, and trained than the average Westerosi man-at-arms.

2)Yes, Meryn Trant, in full armor, defeated a man wielding a wooden sword.  Bully for him.  Proves nothing.

3)Syrio Forell was no half-naked Dothraki screamer.  He was First Sword of Braavos.  The two are by no means analogous.  Not even close.

[Kozma]

Depending how long would be Syrio's sword. I would bet 5:1 on Syrio. Knights in armor were not good foot soldiers.

[mcb]

Exitao, on 30 April 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

Broadswords, longswords, greatswords and such don't usually need much of an edge. Armoured knights bash each other senseless until they make an opening.
Heavy weapons require full commitment to an attack. A little push to the side, the sword keeps going, now in a safer path, counter attack.

Well, that's not how Arstan Whitebeard killed Titan's Bastard. Sure, your average knight probably isn't very inventive, but clearly the best ones have one or two hundred tricks up their sleeves.
OTOH, if a knight's knight could easily adapt to unarmored combat, with a wooden stick as a weapon, and kick serious ass, then possibly Syrio is capable of a similar adaptation in the opposite direction. My opinion about the hypothetical fight: too close to call, not unlike the one between Mountain and Red Viper before its definitive conclusion.

Unless of course it's jousting, in that case Syrio is fucked.

[Storms End]

Tumnas the Torpid, on 30 April 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

1)These 'random fodder' were the men Tywin Lannister wrapped in Crimson Cloaks and charged with guarding his daughter.  They were no knights, true, but they were probably better armed, armored, and trained than the average Westerosi man-at-arms.

2)Yes, Meryn Trant, in full armor, defeated a man wielding a wooden sword.  Bully for him.  Proves nothing.

3)Syrio Forell was no half-naked Dothraki screamer.  He was First Sword of Braavos.  The two are by no means analogous.  Not even close.

As I said, random fodder, the Lannister household guards got destroyed nearly every book, they're not impressive.

Yes it does prove my point, if he was able to kill trained men with a wooden sword, then that should prove him capable of killing one more, which he couldn't, and Meryn is nowhere near comparable to some of the other swordsman in the series, and don't act like wooden swords are trash, they generally have a solid core such a lead, and as proven as he was able to kill or knock people out with it and parry blows.

GRRM totally romantized Syrio leading most of the people on this forum to be the ultimate swordsman, in reality, he wasn't.

The only way Syrio could ever defeat a fully fledged knight would be using Bronn's method, which, with his style, he wouldn't do, and you're right, he's not a dothraki screamer, he'd be using an even moreso inefficient weapon, those small bravoosi dueling swords which appear to be described as being a smaller version of a rapier, would utterly get decimated.

Edited by Storms End, 30 April 2012 - 08:14 PM.

[Arkantos]

Tumnas the Torpid, on 30 April 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

1)These 'random fodder' were the men Tywin Lannister wrapped in Crimson Cloaks and charged with guarding his daughter.  They were no knights, true, but they were probably better armed, armored, and trained than the average Westerosi man-at-arms.

They were generic houseguards, the only advantage they have over men-at-arms is equipment and slightly more training, they're nowhere near the level of a knight, who has been training from a very young age and usually has very good gear.
Just as wearing armour doesn't make it a battle, it doesn't make you a knight either.

Tumnas the Torpid, on 30 April 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

2)Yes, Meryn Trant, in full armor, defeated a man wielding a wooden sword.  Bully for him.  Proves nothing.

Wasn't the point that any half decent knight could beat him? So it does prove it, if Syrio's water style was so good, he could've done the same thing he did to the fodder Lannister men.

Tumnas the Torpid, on 30 April 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

3)Syrio Forell was no half-naked Dothraki screamer.  He was First Sword of Braavos.  The two are by no means analogous.  Not even close.

I believe that the point is that both get counted by armour quite badly, and I don't think Qotho can be just shrugged off as though he's nothing either, he was one of Khal Drogos bloodriders, no pixie, and it's not like Jorah is the best of knights, yet he still won.

Edited by Arkantos, 30 April 2012 - 08:26 PM.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Storms End, on 30 April 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

As I said, random fodder, the Lannister household guards got destroyed nearly every book, they're not impressive.

They did for Ned's entire household well enough.  The bottom line is that defeating a handful of armed and armored men with a wooden sword is an absurdly impressive act, and I'm not sure why anyone would choose to ignore this.

Storms End, on 30 April 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

Yes it does prove my point, if he was able to kill trained men with a wooden sword, then that should prove him capable of killing one more, which he couldn't, and Meryn is nowhere near comparable to some of the other swordsman in the series, and don't act like wooden swords are trash, they generally have a solid core such a lead, and as proven as he was able to kill or knock people out with it and parry blows.

Martin makes it quite clear, through Arya's eyes, that Syrio is incapable of defeating Trant because his better suit of armor renders him effectively immune to Syrio's training sword, covering all the weak points Syrio could have hoped to hit to stun him.  We will never know who was the better swordsman.  The fastest draw in the west will still lose to a Sherman Tank.

Storms End, on 30 April 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

GRRM totally romantized Syrio leading most of the people on this forum to be the ultimate swordsman, in reality, he wasn't.

So, what you are saying is: "George Martin was wrong?"  This Song is work of fiction; as such, whatever Martin decides is the truth is thus true, regardless of your opinion regarding the effectiveness of water-dancing against Westerosi knights.

Storms End, on 30 April 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

The only way Syrio could ever defeat a fully fledged knight would be using Bronn's method, which, with his style, he wouldn't do, and you're right, he's not a dothraki screamer, he'd be using an even moreso inefficient weapon, those small bravoosi dueling swords which appear to be described as being a smaller version of a rapier, would utterly get decimated.

On the contrary, it is possible that an actual bravo's blade may be the perfect weapon for an unarmored man to use against a knight.  A longsword or greatsword would require its wielder to sacrifice mobility in order to use its weight to try to hack and pierce through the knight's plate.  A bravo's blade may be, on the other hand, slim enough to find weaknesses at the joints, fastenings, etc., that would be useless to a longsword.

Regardless, we will not know the answers to these questions unless and until Martin decides to pit a water-dancer against a knight.

[TomWillcox]

Arkantos, on 30 April 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

I believe that the point is that both get counted by armour quite badly, and I don't think Qotho can be just shrugged off as though he's nothing either, he was one of Khal Drogos bloodriders, no pixie, and it's not like Jorah is the best of knights, yet he still won.

Jorah is meant to be a briliant knight, hence him winning that tourney and being one of the first men over the wall at Pyke.

[Storms End]

Tumnas the Torpid, on 30 April 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

They did for Ned's entire household well enough.  The bottom line is that defeating a handful of armed and armored men with a wooden sword is an absurdly impressive act, and I'm not sure why anyone would choose to ignore this.

Martin makes it quite clear, through Arya's eyes, that Syrio is incapable of defeating Trant because his better suit of armor renders him effectively immune to Syrio's training sword, covering all the weak points Syrio could have hoped to hit to stun him.  We will never know who was the better swordsman.  The fastest draw in the west will still lose to a Sherman Tank.

So, what you are saying is: "George Martin was wrong?"  This Song is work of fiction; as such, whatever Martin decides is the truth is thus true, regardless of your opinion regarding the effectiveness of water-dancing against Westerosi knights.

On the contrary, it is possible that an actual bravo's blade may be the perfect weapon for an unarmored man to use against a knight.  A longsword or greatsword would require its wielder to sacrifice mobility in order to use its weight to try to hack and pierce through the knight's plate.  A bravo's blade may be, on the other hand, slim enough to find weaknesses at the joints, fastenings, etc., that would be useless to a longsword.

Regardless, we will not know the answers to these questions unless and until Martin decides to pit a water-dancer against a knight.

- First fail, not only were Ned's household guard suprise attacked by NOT ONLY a prepared lannister force, but with a surrounding group of gold cloaks who were fully aware of the situation, using that as an example is just beyond a joke.

- Second fail, Martin quite clearly illustrates the effectiveness of his style against someone who is an armoured knight, who honestly could only be described as imcompetent as he's not even top notch considering he's a member of the kingsguard, and guess what, Syrio dies.

- This is getting boring, Indeed martin dictates the truth in his own world, but in reality, and which he has often described in his, armour is a massive deciding factor in battles.

- Lol, I'd love to see anyone attempt to parry a strong slash from a longsword using one of the braavo rapiers, and even so if that was even possible to counter, most smart knights would be carrying a shield if they aren't going 2 handed, so guess what, not only does the swordman have to be execeptionally pinpoint accurate in the exetremely limited types of attack you could possibly due in the circumstance, which would be a lunge or something similar, but he also has to deal with a shield.

I'm a fan of Syrio too, but I can differ between romanticism and reality.

Edited by Storms End, 30 April 2012 - 08:46 PM.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Storms End, on 30 April 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

- First fail, not only were Ned's household guard suprise attacked by NOT ONLY a prepared lannister force, but with a surrounding group of gold cloaks who were fully aware of the situation, using that as an example is just beyond a joke.

- Second fail, Martin quite clearly illustrates the effectiveness of his style against someone who is an armoured knight, who honestly could only be described as imcompetent as he's not even top notch considering he's a member of the kingsguard, and guess what, Syrio dies.

- This is getting boring, Indeed martin dictates the truth in his own world, but in reality, and which he has often described in his, armour is a massive deciding factor in battles.

- Lol, I'd love to see anyone attempt to parry a strong slash from a longsword using one of the braavo rapiers, and even so if that was even possible to counter, most smart knights would be carrying a shield if they aren't going 2 handed, so guess what, not only does the swordman have to be execeptionally pinpoint accurate in the exetremely limited types of attack you could possibly due in the circumstance, which would be a lunge or something similar, but he also has to deal with a shield.

I'm a fan of Syrio too, but I can differ between romanticism and reality.

Reality is that we have yet to see a bravo's blade used against a knight in armor.  Period.  We will not know whether they can be used effectively in that situation until it arises.  Until then, we can speculate back and forth at eachother until our faces turn purple, but it will prove nothing.

But, seeing as I seem to be the ony one here aware of that fact, I still get to be right.  Hooray!

[Exitao]

Storms End, on 30 April 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

As I said, random fodder, the Lannister household guards got destroyed nearly every book, they're not impressive.

Yes it does prove my point, if he was able to kill trained men with a wooden sword, then that should prove him capable of killing one more, which he couldn't, and Meryn is nowhere near comparable to some of the other swordsman in the series, and don't act like wooden swords are trash, they generally have a solid core such a lead, and as proven as he was able to kill or knock people out with it and parry blows.

GRRM totally romantized Syrio leading most of the people on this forum to be the ultimate swordsman, in reality, he wasn't.

The only way Syrio could ever defeat a fully fledged knight would be using Bronn's method, which, with his style, he wouldn't do, and you're right, he's not a dothraki screamer, he'd be using an even moreso inefficient weapon, those small bravoosi dueling swords which appear to be described as being a smaller version of a rapier, would utterly get decimated.

As long as he took care not to take direct hits on his blade and parry by redirecting the heavier blade, he could do exactly like Bronn, only with more style.

Fighting lightly armoured red cloaks with a wooden training sword is also different than using a rapier-like weapon. He wouldn't bat a helm with his blade, you guard your edge on a weapin like a rapier.

The wooden sword would be next to useless against fully armoured knight who was accustomed to practicing with blunted blades, much heavier than even a weighted wooden sword. That's why he couldn't take one more.

[The Smiling Eye]

When was it actually confirmed Syrio died?

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Ataraxia60, on 30 April 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

When was it actually confirmed Syrio died?

Not that I know of.  Nevertheless, I find it hard to believe that he survived, and we would hear nothing about it.  I have to imagine that Cersei would have ridiculed Trant for it at some point.

[Dark Rider]

Well, take two different martial arts. Someone who masters a martial art, even one considered inferior, may still be leagues better than somone who has not mastered a superior martial art.

I believe Syrio could do very well against all, but the top Westerosi swordsmen.

[Exitao]

Ataraxia60, on 30 April 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

When was it actually confirmed Syrio died?

Syrio was really Jaqen H'gar wearing his face. (Which is why, I suspect, that "Syrio" always referred to himself in the third person.)

[Me262]

Tumnas the Torpid, on 30 April 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

I don't think we'll ever know.  If we had only seen him with an actual bravo's blade in hand...

Surely, the slim swords they are described using would be utterly ineffectual, if used Westerosi-style against armor.  I don't imagine Syrio would be capable of 'piercing plate', or hammering his way throught it.

But perhaps the water-dancer's sword might be able to exploit any weakness in a suit of Westerosi plate that would be too small for a typical Westerosi weapon?  After Syrio made such short work of those Lannister men with only a wooden sword, I tried to imagine what he might be able to do with a bravo's blade.  Could he get around the edges or fastenings of all that steel?  Could his blade find its way through eye slits, and other narrow openings?  Armed with true steel, could he have dispensed with Trant just as quickly and gracefully as he did the crimson cloaks?

Maybe, but we'll never know, because all he had was a wooden sword.

This is the best point I have read in this topic. Everybody is just picturing Syrio with his wooden sword, training Arya on a Sunday afternoon, so to speak. Put a bravo's blade in his hand. He told Arya at their first lesson that they are not learning the knight's dance, which is hacking and hammering. The waterdance dance is all about speed and accuracy, since all men are made of water and if you pierce them, the water leaks out and... they are fucked! ;-)
To get serious again, if there is ANY weak point on the knight that can be pierced by a bravo's blade, EVERY knight would be in real danger, when facing Syrio.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Me262, on 01 May 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

This is the best point I have read in this topic. Everybody is just picturing Syrio with his wooden sword, training Arya on a Sunday afternoon, so to speak. Put a bravo's blade in his hand. He told Arya at their first lesson that they are not learning the knight's dance, which is hacking and hammering. The waterdance dance is all about speed and accuracy, since all men are made of water and if you pierce them, the water leaks out and... they are fucked! ;-)
To get serious again, if there is ANY weak point on the knight that can be pierced by a bravo's blade, EVERY knight would be in real danger, when facing Syrio.

That was my thought.  If it can be done, Syrio was surely the man who could have done it at will.

This might sound strange, but are you the same Me262 I was spouting Blue Oyster Cult lyrics at the other day?

[Me262]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 30 April 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Top tier means the 10-15 best in Westeros. Westeros, whose population is probably a hundred times bigger than Braavos. And the Lannister guardsmen whose asses he kicked were neither completely armored nor wielding greatswords nor trained since they could walk. They were simply just average grunts and definitely not comparable to Jaime, Loras, Garlan, the Hound, the Mountain and the other famous swordsmen.

Even if your population assesment is correct (no proof to either back or dismiss it, as far as I know), only a very small fraction in Westeros are knights. A large majority of people are commoners not nobles in Westeros and (with some rare exceptions) only noble houses "produce" knights. In Bravoos common men hone their skills by fighting duels on all possible occasions and locations, and only ONE of them is at one time The first sword of Braavos. Syrio held that title for nine freaking years!
I agree with everything you said about Lannister guardsmen. But there were 5 of them and he was armed with a wooden sword.

[Me262]

Tumnas the Torpid, on 01 May 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

That was my thought.  If it can be done, Syrio was surely the man who could have done it at will.

This might sound strange, but are you the same Me262 I was spouting Blue Oyster Cult lyrics at the other day?

The one and only. :-)

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Me262, on 01 May 2012 - 12:47 AM, said:

The one and only. :-)

Sorry for the confusion.  It wasn't until this morning that I read the ensuing conversation.