I don't want to point any fingers, but throughout the novels there are several examples of characters doing dubious things. Some acts are just pointless acts of sadism, but others are more multi-faceted. So, I was wondering, if you were in the situations some of the characters were, what would you do? Other examples are welcome, but here are the ones that come to mind.
1. Near the start of the first book Jaime Lannister discovers the young son of his host, a very important lord who has just been offered the position of Hand by the King, the man he was cuckolding, watching him and his sister in the act.(for the sake of the scenario, assume that as Jaime the incest taboo doesn't register). If Bran tells anyone, he, his sister/lover his children, and his brother are almost certainly dead. It's possible his house as large could be attacked as well, although if Tywin cuts his losses he might be able to 'just' be disgraced hugely. If you had to make that choice, knowing that every moment you take to decide there's a risk he might shout for help or that a guard could see you holding the boy by the window, what would you do?
2. During the Battle of the Bells in the War of the Usurper, Lord Jon Connington had Robert Baratheon surrounded in the town of Stoney Sept, with a (superior?) rebel force loyal to Robert approaching from the north. He didn't have enough time to search the entire town for Robert, and the most pragmatic option would have been to burn down the town to make sure Robert was killed. However, that would have killed all of the non-combatants within the town, possibly thousands of innocent civilians. Although he, and you, couldn't have known the exact consequences of failure, the consequences of not demoralising the rebel force and destroying what was left of Robert's forces within the town, who could (and did) launch an attack to your rear while you engage the main rebel force might be severe.
You could die, obviously, and anything from more to all of your men could die with you. Your family could be disgraced, or even wiped out, as a result, and your friend (love interest?) Rheagar could very well die because you lost the battle, along with his family. There's also the Mad King to consider, he burned a man alive inside his armour as his son choked himself to death trying to save him, laughing all the while. What might he do to you if you lose the battle?
3. Now, say you're Jon Aryyn just before the canonical start of Robert's Rebellion. Your nephew was just executed. Rickard Stark, possibly a friend since he trusted you to raise his second son as your ward, has just been burned alive, while his son was strangled to death just meters away, by the orders of a mad king whose son (to the best of your knowledge) abducted, and may have raped,your ward's sister. Having suffered these losses, you have also been ordered by said king to hand over your two wards, who see you as a second father, probably for execution given one is the brother/son of those executed, and the other the betrothed of your first ward's abducted sister. This psychopath expects you to obey, quite possibly sentencing both the Stark and Baratheon lines to extinction, but if you don't do what he wants then you'll have to rebel, starting a war that could kills tens of thousands. More, even, if it drags on long enough and agriculture is disrupted enough for a famine to set in. Your own subjects, men you've known your entire life, could decide they have to turn against you, forcing you to fight them. What would you do in his situation?
I could go on, but I think the fundamental issue in a lot of the decisions made by important characters is just how valuable friends and family are compared to their subjects, servants, and people they no nothing particular to. If you were there, and the 'important named characters' weren't just words on a page but your closest loved ones, and the 'faceless masses' weren't just something that sometimes influenced the named characters, but full human beings in their own right... where would you draw the line?
And if anyone's wondering what brought this on, I was musing over how Robb might have a chance fighting any of the southern factions, and for a brief moment burning down king's landing seemed like a good idea. Sure, it would have weakened Joffrey, but it really made me wonder.
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If you were a Westrosi leader, how far would you go?
Started by
Mr Stereo1
, Apr 30 2012 03:45 PM
51 replies to this topic
#2
Tumnas the Torpid
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 04:09 PM
Great topic. This will be sure to start some arguments.
With regard to Jaime: I hope with all my heart that I would be able to pull Bran through that window, take him to Robert, and confess that I had just raped his Queen. I can not know, however, that I would not simply (attempt to) murder the boy, as Jaime did.
With regard to Griff: Assuming that I felt the same way Connington did, I would like to say that I would hold the walls, and announce to the town my intent to raze it should Robert not produce himself in five minutes. Don't know if I would think of that in the heat of the moment, though.
With regard to Arryn: While I would, normally, be the first guy to jump on the "he's sentencing who-knows-how-many to death for the sake of his two wards"-train, I have to say that hindsight may have proven Arryn right. Confronted with Aerys's madness in his killings of the Starks, I think the only sane conclusion is that the man should sit no throne. Jaime's motive for the Kingslaying seems to bear out the idea that Aerys's taste for atrocity was escalating, and had the potential to claim victims in the who-knows-how-many area. Kudos to Jon for seeing the situation correctly.
With regard to Jaime: I hope with all my heart that I would be able to pull Bran through that window, take him to Robert, and confess that I had just raped his Queen. I can not know, however, that I would not simply (attempt to) murder the boy, as Jaime did.
With regard to Griff: Assuming that I felt the same way Connington did, I would like to say that I would hold the walls, and announce to the town my intent to raze it should Robert not produce himself in five minutes. Don't know if I would think of that in the heat of the moment, though.
With regard to Arryn: While I would, normally, be the first guy to jump on the "he's sentencing who-knows-how-many to death for the sake of his two wards"-train, I have to say that hindsight may have proven Arryn right. Confronted with Aerys's madness in his killings of the Starks, I think the only sane conclusion is that the man should sit no throne. Jaime's motive for the Kingslaying seems to bear out the idea that Aerys's taste for atrocity was escalating, and had the potential to claim victims in the who-knows-how-many area. Kudos to Jon for seeing the situation correctly.
#3
servethe_Realm
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 04:14 PM
Hmm must mull over the others but for now...If I were Jaime I would have just tried to scare the kid into shutting up. I think it would've worked....for a while at least.
#4
The Mother of The Others
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 04:16 PM
Somewhat far. But not so far that I was only known for going far.
#5
Tumnas the Torpid
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 04:25 PM
servethe_Realm, on 30 April 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:
Hmm must mull over the others but for now...If I were Jaime I would have just tried to scare the kid into shutting up. I think it would've worked....for a while at least.
Jaime might have been able to intimidate the boy into silence for a few days, months, or even years, but forever? Highly unlikely, and if this means that Jaime will have to kill Bran to preserve his own life, he will probably never get a better chance than that very moment, at the window.
Edited by Tumnas the Torpid, 30 April 2012 - 04:27 PM.
#6
Lothar Imbel
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 04:42 PM
I'm honestly not certain that I would've done any different to Theon. I may not have gone as far as to kill two children, but the truly desperate situation that Theon got himself into made him do things he normally wouldn't have done, so I can't be sure it wouldn't change what I'd do either.
#7
Mr Stereo1
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 04:43 PM
Tumnas the Torpid, on 30 April 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:
Great topic. This will be sure to start some arguments.
Quote possibly, but I'd be interested in reading them, and it's the internet so everyone is free to leave at any time.
Tumnas the Torpid, on 30 April 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:
With regard to Jaime: I hope with all my heart that I would be able to pull Bran through that window, take him to Robert, and confess that I had just raped his Queen. I can not know, however, that I would not simply (attempt to) murder the boy, as Jaime did.
That was an idea that occurred to me, but I don't think I'd have the courage to go through with it. How would I explain away the sudden change? Was it an ongoing case of sexual abuse for years, that Brandon just discovered? The 'best' option I could come up with was to scare Bran at first, beat Cersei where the marks won't be obvious unless you're looking for them, and try to convince her to give Robert the best explanation she could that didn't put her or the rest of the family at risk. I'm not sure if Cersei would go with that, though.
Tumnas the Torpid, on 30 April 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:
With regard to Griff: Assuming that I felt the same way Connington did, I would like to say that I would hold the walls, and announce to the town my intent to raze it should Robert not produce himself in five minutes. Don't know if I would think of that in the heat of the moment, though.
That's a good solution, I didn't think of that.
Tumnas the Torpid, on 30 April 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:
With regard to Arryn: While I would, normally, be the first guy to jump on the "he's sentencing who-knows-how-many to death for the sake of his two wards"-train, I have to say that hindsight may have proven Arryn right. Confronted with Aerys's madness in his killings of the Starks, I think the only sane conclusion is that the man should sit no throne. Jaime's motive for the Kingslaying seems to bear out the idea that Aerys's taste for atrocity was escalating, and had the potential to claim victims in the who-knows-how-many area. Kudos to Jon for seeing the situation correctly.
That's a point. I was trying to give an example of the extreme wider consequences of going to war for the sake of a few individuals, Robb's decision in GoT didn't quite fit as the kingdom was already at war, meaning he was just choosing a side. There's still some tension there, but that's debateably a separate discussion to this one.
#8
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 04:47 PM
Mr Stereo1, on 30 April 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:
I don't want to point any fingers, but throughout the novels there are several examples of characters doing dubious things. Some acts are just pointless acts of sadism, but others are more multi-faceted. So, I was wondering, if you were in the situations some of the characters were, what would you do? Other examples are welcome, but here are the ones that come to mind.
1. Near the start of the first book Jaime Lannister discovers the young son of his host, a very important lord who has just been offered the position of Hand by the King, the man he was cuckolding, watching him and his sister in the act.(for the sake of the scenario, assume that as Jaime the incest taboo doesn't register). If Bran tells anyone, he, his sister/lover his children, and his brother are almost certainly dead. It's possible his house as large could be attacked as well, although if Tywin cuts his losses he might be able to 'just' be disgraced hugely. If you had to make that choice, knowing that every moment you take to decide there's a risk he might shout for help or that a guard could see you holding the boy by the window, what would you do?
2. During the Battle of the Bells in the War of the Usurper, Lord Jon Connington had Robert Baratheon surrounded in the town of Stoney Sept, with a (superior?) rebel force loyal to Robert approaching from the north. He didn't have enough time to search the entire town for Robert, and the most pragmatic option would have been to burn down the town to make sure Robert was killed. However, that would have killed all of the non-combatants within the town, possibly thousands of innocent civilians. Although he, and you, couldn't have known the exact consequences of failure, the consequences of not demoralising the rebel force and destroying what was left of Robert's forces within the town, who could (and did) launch an attack to your rear while you engage the main rebel force might be severe.
You could die, obviously, and anything from more to all of your men could die with you. Your family could be disgraced, or even wiped out, as a result, and your friend (love interest?) Rheagar could very well die because you lost the battle, along with his family. There's also the Mad King to consider, he burned a man alive inside his armour as his son choked himself to death trying to save him, laughing all the while. What might he do to you if you lose the battle?
3. Now, say you're Jon Aryyn just before the canonical start of Robert's Rebellion. Your nephew was just executed. Rickard Stark, possibly a friend since he trusted you to raise his second son as your ward, has just been burned alive, while his son was strangled to death just meters away, by the orders of a mad king whose son (to the best of your knowledge) abducted, and may have raped,your ward's sister. Having suffered these losses, you have also been ordered by said king to hand over your two wards, who see you as a second father, probably for execution given one is the brother/son of those executed, and the other the betrothed of your first ward's abducted sister. This psychopath expects you to obey, quite possibly sentencing both the Stark and Baratheon lines to extinction, but if you don't do what he wants then you'll have to rebel, starting a war that could kills tens of thousands. More, even, if it drags on long enough and agriculture is disrupted enough for a famine to set in. Your own subjects, men you've known your entire life, could decide they have to turn against you, forcing you to fight them. What would you do in his situation?
I could go on, but I think the fundamental issue in a lot of the decisions made by important characters is just how valuable friends and family are compared to their subjects, servants, and people they no nothing particular to. If you were there, and the 'important named characters' weren't just words on a page but your closest loved ones, and the 'faceless masses' weren't just something that sometimes influenced the named characters, but full human beings in their own right... where would you draw the line?
And if anyone's wondering what brought this on, I was musing over how Robb might have a chance fighting any of the southern factions, and for a brief moment burning down king's landing seemed like a good idea. Sure, it would have weakened Joffrey, but it really made me wonder.
1. Near the start of the first book Jaime Lannister discovers the young son of his host, a very important lord who has just been offered the position of Hand by the King, the man he was cuckolding, watching him and his sister in the act.(for the sake of the scenario, assume that as Jaime the incest taboo doesn't register). If Bran tells anyone, he, his sister/lover his children, and his brother are almost certainly dead. It's possible his house as large could be attacked as well, although if Tywin cuts his losses he might be able to 'just' be disgraced hugely. If you had to make that choice, knowing that every moment you take to decide there's a risk he might shout for help or that a guard could see you holding the boy by the window, what would you do?
2. During the Battle of the Bells in the War of the Usurper, Lord Jon Connington had Robert Baratheon surrounded in the town of Stoney Sept, with a (superior?) rebel force loyal to Robert approaching from the north. He didn't have enough time to search the entire town for Robert, and the most pragmatic option would have been to burn down the town to make sure Robert was killed. However, that would have killed all of the non-combatants within the town, possibly thousands of innocent civilians. Although he, and you, couldn't have known the exact consequences of failure, the consequences of not demoralising the rebel force and destroying what was left of Robert's forces within the town, who could (and did) launch an attack to your rear while you engage the main rebel force might be severe.
You could die, obviously, and anything from more to all of your men could die with you. Your family could be disgraced, or even wiped out, as a result, and your friend (love interest?) Rheagar could very well die because you lost the battle, along with his family. There's also the Mad King to consider, he burned a man alive inside his armour as his son choked himself to death trying to save him, laughing all the while. What might he do to you if you lose the battle?
3. Now, say you're Jon Aryyn just before the canonical start of Robert's Rebellion. Your nephew was just executed. Rickard Stark, possibly a friend since he trusted you to raise his second son as your ward, has just been burned alive, while his son was strangled to death just meters away, by the orders of a mad king whose son (to the best of your knowledge) abducted, and may have raped,your ward's sister. Having suffered these losses, you have also been ordered by said king to hand over your two wards, who see you as a second father, probably for execution given one is the brother/son of those executed, and the other the betrothed of your first ward's abducted sister. This psychopath expects you to obey, quite possibly sentencing both the Stark and Baratheon lines to extinction, but if you don't do what he wants then you'll have to rebel, starting a war that could kills tens of thousands. More, even, if it drags on long enough and agriculture is disrupted enough for a famine to set in. Your own subjects, men you've known your entire life, could decide they have to turn against you, forcing you to fight them. What would you do in his situation?
I could go on, but I think the fundamental issue in a lot of the decisions made by important characters is just how valuable friends and family are compared to their subjects, servants, and people they no nothing particular to. If you were there, and the 'important named characters' weren't just words on a page but your closest loved ones, and the 'faceless masses' weren't just something that sometimes influenced the named characters, but full human beings in their own right... where would you draw the line?
And if anyone's wondering what brought this on, I was musing over how Robb might have a chance fighting any of the southern factions, and for a brief moment burning down king's landing seemed like a good idea. Sure, it would have weakened Joffrey, but it really made me wonder.
1. Slit the little bastard's throat first and THEN push him down. If he wasn't a Stark, maybe I'd do something else, but one does not simply kill a Stark and feel bad about it.
2. Burn it. In those days the King was supreme, so anyone who you killed in order to protect the king is 100% expendable. Also who cares about smallfolk? Not the highborn people of Westeros, that's for sure. I sure am glad I'm not a smallfolk from Westeros.
3. Hand them over. Again, in those days, the King's authority was supreme. Also, if my only son was a sickly sack of shit and my wife was a cunt (as Jon Arryn's family was), I would probably hand them over as well as a gift, and try to find a new wife and make a son who wouldn't make people hate the name Arryn. The Arryn's seem like they were a pretty cool family, but after Jon died they were screwed by his insane Widow and pathetic son.
#9
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 04:54 PM
Tumnas the Torpid, on 30 April 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:
With regard to Jaime: I hope with all my heart that I would be able to pull Bran through that window, take him to Robert, and confess that I had just raped his Queen.
#10
Euphail
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 04:57 PM
Mr Stereo1, on 30 April 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:
2. During the Battle of the Bells in the War of the Usurper, Lord Jon Connington had Robert Baratheon surrounded in the town of Stoney Sept, with a (superior?) rebel force loyal to Robert approaching from the north. He didn't have enough time to search the entire town for Robert, and the most pragmatic option would have been to burn down the town to make sure Robert was killed. However, that would have killed all of the non-combatants within the town, possibly thousands of innocent civilians. Although he, and you, couldn't have known the exact consequences of failure, the consequences of not demoralising the rebel force and destroying what was left of Robert's forces within the town, who could (and did) launch an attack to your rear while you engage the main rebel force might be severe.
You could die, obviously, and anything from more to all of your men could die with you. Your family could be disgraced, or even wiped out, as a result, and your friend (love interest?) Rheagar could very well die because you lost the battle, along with his family. There's also the Mad King to consider, he burned a man alive inside his armour as his son choked himself to death trying to save him, laughing all the while. What might he do to you if you lose the battle?
You could die, obviously, and anything from more to all of your men could die with you. Your family could be disgraced, or even wiped out, as a result, and your friend (love interest?) Rheagar could very well die because you lost the battle, along with his family. There's also the Mad King to consider, he burned a man alive inside his armour as his son choked himself to death trying to save him, laughing all the while. What might he do to you if you lose the battle?
To be honest, I probably would burn the village. I agree with Red Wedding Participant, in those days the King was supreme. Also, anyone in the village who was not actively seaching for Robert (and to be honest, I think none of them were very helpful) are borderline treasonous. Ends may justify the means. How many people could be saved by burning it down?
#11
Tumnas the Torpid
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:01 PM
Red Wedding Participant, on 30 April 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:
Hang on. Rape?? Incest is not the same thing as rape, there is incestuous rape, but that is not what the Lannister twins practiced, it was consensual incest.
I realize that. Confessing to rape, however, would fit what Bran saw (eliminating the need to kill him), and keep the blame and scorn off of Cersei and the rest of House Lannister (hopefully preventing Tywin from going to war). I would, as Jaime, lie and confess to rape to try and ensure that the only person to die as a result of my own actions would be myself.
Or, at least, I hope I would have what it takes to go through with that.
#12
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:01 PM
Euphail, on 30 April 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:
To be honest, I probably would burn the village. I agree with Red Wedding Participant, in those days the King was supreme. Also, anyone in the village who was not actively seaching for Robert (and to be honest, I think none of them were very helpful) are borderline treasonous. Ends may justify the means. How many people could be saved by burning it down?
Couldn't he evacuate everyone under escort, burn the village and examine the prisoners?
As for 1, I'd frighten the boy or coax/deceive him into silence-no one'd take a seven year old seriously.
3-I do not know what I would do, honestly.
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:20 PM
Tumnas the Torpid, on 30 April 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:
I realize that. Confessing to rape, however, would fit what Bran saw (eliminating the need to kill him), and keep the blame and scorn off of Cersei and the rest of House Lannister (hopefully preventing Tywin from going to war). I would, as Jaime, lie and confess to rape to try and ensure that the only person to die as a result of my own actions would be myself.
Or, at least, I hope I would have what it takes to go through with that.
Or, at least, I hope I would have what it takes to go through with that.
I see what you are saying. It's a case of the most honourable thing not being to be completely honest.
#14
Tumnas the Torpid
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:25 PM
@RedWeddingParticipant: Precisely.
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:48 PM
1. It comes down to where you place honor and family. In the end I believe you have to place family above personal honor so while it was horrible what Jamie did he really had no choice. I think that's Jamie's curse really is that he places family higher than his own honor and it's certainly why they call him Kingslayer.
2. It would have been a HUGE mistake to have burned Stoney Sept to the ground killing thousands of innocent people. One of the most important things in a war is to win the support of the people. You certainly don't win any support by killing thousands of people you claim are your subjects. Even their disloyalty must be answered in a fair and reasonable fashion by executing those responsible or the "town leaders." I wouldn't have put the whole town to the torch and I don't believe that single act cost the Targaryens the war.
3. Jon Arryn had to do what was best for his house and his family. Killing allies and their sons would have isolated his family and land. The King was insane and the acts of his son as reported didn't indicate that the apple had fallen far from the tree. So I would have done exactly what Jon Arryn did in fact do.
2. It would have been a HUGE mistake to have burned Stoney Sept to the ground killing thousands of innocent people. One of the most important things in a war is to win the support of the people. You certainly don't win any support by killing thousands of people you claim are your subjects. Even their disloyalty must be answered in a fair and reasonable fashion by executing those responsible or the "town leaders." I wouldn't have put the whole town to the torch and I don't believe that single act cost the Targaryens the war.
3. Jon Arryn had to do what was best for his house and his family. Killing allies and their sons would have isolated his family and land. The King was insane and the acts of his son as reported didn't indicate that the apple had fallen far from the tree. So I would have done exactly what Jon Arryn did in fact do.
Edited by Dark Rider, 30 April 2012 - 09:50 PM.
#16
Euphail
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:08 PM
Dark Rider, on 30 April 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:
2. It would have been a HUGE mistake to have burned Stoney Sept to the ground killing thousands of innocent people. One of the most important things in a war is to win the support of the people. You certainly don't win any support by killing thousands of people you claim are your subjects. Even their disloyalty must be answered in a fair and reasonable fashion by executing those responsible or the "town leaders." I wouldn't have put the whole town to the torch and I don't believe that single act cost the Targaryens the war.
It might not have cost them the war, but it could have won them the war. It's as Lord Eustace describes in The Sworn Sword, once their leader is dead, the war will end. Here it's not clear that it would end the war, but it would have been an EXTREMELY large blow to the oposition. The necessity of winning the support of the people is dependant on the situation. On one extreme, if none of them live, you have no one to please, but the rumour of how far you're willing to go will bring pause to anyone considering revolt (That's how Tywin rules). On the other, they all live and the Targarians die.
As a rule of policy, if my family was at stake, commoners be damned. In the long run I'll have a lot of work to do to try and make them happy, but in the short run, I'm still alive. So I would not view it as a mistake, uncontionably amoral, but not a mistake.
I think winter's knight had a useful compromise, though not perfect in terms of preserving life.
#17
Ramsay Gimp
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:25 PM
Red Wedding Participant, on 30 April 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:
I would probably hand them over as well as a gift, and try to find a new wife and make a son who wouldn't make people hate the name Arryn. The Arryn's seem like they were a pretty cool family, but after Jon died they were screwed by his insane Widow and pathetic son.
This is just stupid. If Lysa is bugging you, just send her away to live in Gulltown or something. Kids reflect their parents - my guess is that John probably ignored Robert for the most part. Take an active interest in his upbringing, and he will probably turn out to be a worthy heir
#18
Ramsay Gimp
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:28 PM
Can I add another scenario/example?
You are Tywin Lannister, and Walder Frey/Roose Bolton have written you expressing a willingness to turn against the Starks, but no specific plans have been made. At the same time, Balon Greyjoy has sent you his alliance offer in exchange for independence. What do you work out?
You are Tywin Lannister, and Walder Frey/Roose Bolton have written you expressing a willingness to turn against the Starks, but no specific plans have been made. At the same time, Balon Greyjoy has sent you his alliance offer in exchange for independence. What do you work out?
#19
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:32 PM
As most of us (I'd like to say all but I've read things on this board) have modern morals, we probably wouldn't go very far. At least not straight away.
#20
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:41 PM
Mr Stereo1, on 30 April 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:
I don't want to point any fingers, but throughout the novels there are several examples of characters doing dubious things. Some acts are just pointless acts of sadism, but others are more multi-faceted. So, I was wondering, if you were in the situations some of the characters were, what would you do? Other examples are welcome, but here are the ones that come to mind.
1. Near the start of the first book Jaime Lannister discovers the young son of his host, a very important lord who has just been offered the position of Hand by the King, the man he was cuckolding, watching him and his sister in the act.(for the sake of the scenario, assume that as Jaime the incest taboo doesn't register). If Bran tells anyone, he, his sister/lover his children, and his brother are almost certainly dead. It's possible his house as large could be attacked as well, although if Tywin cuts his losses he might be able to 'just' be disgraced hugely. If you had to make that choice, knowing that every moment you take to decide there's a risk he might shout for help or that a guard could see you holding the boy by the window, what would you do?
2. During the Battle of the Bells in the War of the Usurper, Lord Jon Connington had Robert Baratheon surrounded in the town of Stoney Sept, with a (superior?) rebel force loyal to Robert approaching from the north. He didn't have enough time to search the entire town for Robert, and the most pragmatic option would have been to burn down the town to make sure Robert was killed. However, that would have killed all of the non-combatants within the town, possibly thousands of innocent civilians. Although he, and you, couldn't have known the exact consequences of failure, the consequences of not demoralising the rebel force and destroying what was left of Robert's forces within the town, who could (and did) launch an attack to your rear while you engage the main rebel force might be severe.
You could die, obviously, and anything from more to all of your men could die with you. Your family could be disgraced, or even wiped out, as a result, and your friend (love interest?) Rheagar could very well die because you lost the battle, along with his family. There's also the Mad King to consider, he burned a man alive inside his armour as his son choked himself to death trying to save him, laughing all the while. What might he do to you if you lose the battle?
3. Now, say you're Jon Aryyn just before the canonical start of Robert's Rebellion. Your nephew was just executed. Rickard Stark, possibly a friend since he trusted you to raise his second son as your ward, has just been burned alive, while his son was strangled to death just meters away, by the orders of a mad king whose son (to the best of your knowledge) abducted, and may have raped,your ward's sister. Having suffered these losses, you have also been ordered by said king to hand over your two wards, who see you as a second father, probably for execution given one is the brother/son of those executed, and the other the betrothed of your first ward's abducted sister. This psychopath expects you to obey, quite possibly sentencing both the Stark and Baratheon lines to extinction, but if you don't do what he wants then you'll have to rebel, starting a war that could kills tens of thousands. More, even, if it drags on long enough and agriculture is disrupted enough for a famine to set in. Your own subjects, men you've known your entire life, could decide they have to turn against you, forcing you to fight them. What would you do in his situation?
I could go on, but I think the fundamental issue in a lot of the decisions made by important characters is just how valuable friends and family are compared to their subjects, servants, and people they no nothing particular to. If you were there, and the 'important named characters' weren't just words on a page but your closest loved ones, and the 'faceless masses' weren't just something that sometimes influenced the named characters, but full human beings in their own right... where would you draw the line?
And if anyone's wondering what brought this on, I was musing over how Robb might have a chance fighting any of the southern factions, and for a brief moment burning down king's landing seemed like a good idea. Sure, it would have weakened Joffrey, but it really made me wonder.
1. Near the start of the first book Jaime Lannister discovers the young son of his host, a very important lord who has just been offered the position of Hand by the King, the man he was cuckolding, watching him and his sister in the act.(for the sake of the scenario, assume that as Jaime the incest taboo doesn't register). If Bran tells anyone, he, his sister/lover his children, and his brother are almost certainly dead. It's possible his house as large could be attacked as well, although if Tywin cuts his losses he might be able to 'just' be disgraced hugely. If you had to make that choice, knowing that every moment you take to decide there's a risk he might shout for help or that a guard could see you holding the boy by the window, what would you do?
2. During the Battle of the Bells in the War of the Usurper, Lord Jon Connington had Robert Baratheon surrounded in the town of Stoney Sept, with a (superior?) rebel force loyal to Robert approaching from the north. He didn't have enough time to search the entire town for Robert, and the most pragmatic option would have been to burn down the town to make sure Robert was killed. However, that would have killed all of the non-combatants within the town, possibly thousands of innocent civilians. Although he, and you, couldn't have known the exact consequences of failure, the consequences of not demoralising the rebel force and destroying what was left of Robert's forces within the town, who could (and did) launch an attack to your rear while you engage the main rebel force might be severe.
You could die, obviously, and anything from more to all of your men could die with you. Your family could be disgraced, or even wiped out, as a result, and your friend (love interest?) Rheagar could very well die because you lost the battle, along with his family. There's also the Mad King to consider, he burned a man alive inside his armour as his son choked himself to death trying to save him, laughing all the while. What might he do to you if you lose the battle?
3. Now, say you're Jon Aryyn just before the canonical start of Robert's Rebellion. Your nephew was just executed. Rickard Stark, possibly a friend since he trusted you to raise his second son as your ward, has just been burned alive, while his son was strangled to death just meters away, by the orders of a mad king whose son (to the best of your knowledge) abducted, and may have raped,your ward's sister. Having suffered these losses, you have also been ordered by said king to hand over your two wards, who see you as a second father, probably for execution given one is the brother/son of those executed, and the other the betrothed of your first ward's abducted sister. This psychopath expects you to obey, quite possibly sentencing both the Stark and Baratheon lines to extinction, but if you don't do what he wants then you'll have to rebel, starting a war that could kills tens of thousands. More, even, if it drags on long enough and agriculture is disrupted enough for a famine to set in. Your own subjects, men you've known your entire life, could decide they have to turn against you, forcing you to fight them. What would you do in his situation?
I could go on, but I think the fundamental issue in a lot of the decisions made by important characters is just how valuable friends and family are compared to their subjects, servants, and people they no nothing particular to. If you were there, and the 'important named characters' weren't just words on a page but your closest loved ones, and the 'faceless masses' weren't just something that sometimes influenced the named characters, but full human beings in their own right... where would you draw the line?
And if anyone's wondering what brought this on, I was musing over how Robb might have a chance fighting any of the southern factions, and for a brief moment burning down king's landing seemed like a good idea. Sure, it would have weakened Joffrey, but it really made me wonder.
Threaten the child into silence possibly. At worst, it would be his word against mine and the queens.
Set a picket of cavalry (no need for more than a hundred or so) around the town to prevent Robert from escaping and engage the enemy host. Or, if the town is defensible, prepare a position with ditches, abbatis etc.
Call the fucking banners and let slip the dogs of war.
