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[Book Spoilers] the shadow


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17 replies to this topic

#1 turdle

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:52 PM

ok specifically, i want to discuss the way the tv show decided to lay the shadow out for the audience vs the way the book does. i completely understand the decision to show the shadow being born as a cliff hanger end to the previous episode. i enjoyed it, and a lot of non-book readers seemed to enjoy it as well. however, the problem with doing that, is that the audience goes and imagines all kinds of crazy things that they think the shadow might do, only to find out that the shadow sneaks in and kills renly and then disappears.

at the end of last weeks episode, all my friends were discussing their theories on what the shadow was going to do and were generally very excited about it. and not that killing renly wasn't significant, but i could clearly tell that it wasn't as impressive as the things they were thinking might happen.

i know that when i got to that part in the book, it was jarring, and it comes out of nowhere, and it would have been a pretty big gamble to show renlys death scene with no set up. but i think the show would be better for it in the long run, if they had done it the way the book did: renly killed by shadow first, see the birth of a shadow second.

not to mention that there will presumably be no more shadows this season, so they've shot their wad in two consecutive scenes.

#2 Pliny

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:23 PM

i know that when i got to that part in the book, it was jarring, and it comes out of nowhere, and it would have been a pretty big gamble to show renlys death scene with no set up. but i think the show would be better for it in the long run, if they had done it the way the book did: renly killed by shadow first, see the birth of a shadow second.

not to mention that there will presumably be no more shadows this season, so they've shot their wad in two consecutive scenes.


I also liked the progression better in the book. As you've said, it was scary and unexpected, as well as unexplained, for a time. I also thought that the Renly-killing shadow was sent without Stannis' knowledge. In the show, Stannis sends her in. Doesn't that mean that he never meant to honor what he said about giving Renly until morning? That doesn't sound very book-Stannis-like.

I don't think the show is going to deal at all with Edric Storm, so I guess there wouldn't have been any other time to show a shadow birth.

#3 turdle

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 03:22 PM

i hope that they send off mel to storms end to at least imply that another shadow creature exists. because having only one shadow show up with no real follow up is going to be weird to viewers. i know my friends are under the impression that the shadow is going to be a bigger part of the season and i don't want to spoil anything so i'm keeping quiet.

#4 OzorxOron

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 04:56 PM

It was a lot better in the book, I loved how a gust of wind brought the death of a king in the blink of an eye. In the show you could clearly see what was about to happen and there was no shock when it did.

#5 Stark@heart

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 05:07 PM

They're already at Storm's End. They didn't include the leeches or Edric so we won't see the castellan die either. The next magic we see from Mel is at the battle beyond the Wall, which will probably be next season so I'm guessing we'll see her staring into the flames alot and making prophecies but no more "magic" this season.

#6 RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:59 AM

I don't understand the barred gate scene? Renly was camped in a tent. Why did they construct bars in a cave on a cliff? If it was to an underground entrance to Storms End that would make sense but they can't have been at Storms End as Renly would be staying in his castle if it was. Why be in a cave by the sea anyway? And what were the bars blocking an entrance to?? Mel said something like "they've blocked it now". Has she been there before? If Renly was camped on his way to KL his army would be strewn accross fields. Its unlikely that Mel or even Stannis knows of specific caves in the cliff of a random field.

Is it me or have they seriously dropped the ball in places this season? Was this part of something that was much bigger until the cutting room floor and now sticks out like a sore thumb. They should have reshot that scene to fit in. I originally thought it was a cliff hanger and the location explanation would be explained this episode but no, its just random.

#7 Versiroth

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:02 AM

They're already at Storm's End. They didn't include the leeches or Edric so we won't see the castellan die either. The next magic we see from Mel is at the battle beyond the Wall, which will probably be next season so I'm guessing we'll see her staring into the flames alot and making prophecies but no more "magic" this season.


The leech scene doesn't happen until book three, right? Because that's what brings about the deaths of Robb, Joffrey and Balon in SOS.

#8 victim

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:12 AM

Perhaps the shadow can't swim... Just a thought, not a serious one, but one none the less. Or maybe Stannis just wanted them to be well away from his own men and ships, hence the smuggling. The cave was a pretty cool location as well, a bit weird, but cool.

My non-reader friends thought the shadow-Stannis was just going to mess shit up in Renly's camp and were pretty shocked when it assassinated Renly himself. Though the entire scene felt out of place at the very beginning of an episode and made last week's cliffhanger wrap itself up really quick. It also wasn't as frightening as it was in the books because Cat thinking initially that it was just Renly's shadow before realising seconds too late was lost on the screen. In my opinion, it would have been a fine scene if we didn't see the shadow coming through the tent flaps, rather only hearing the gust of wind instead, seeing Brienne's reaction and then seeing it behind Renly in the mirror.

Renly was also stabbed from behind. I wonder if that was done on purpose.

#9 bikie

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:25 AM

I watched the show yesterday with the interactive features on and they had a small bit on the shadow scene, and it appeared from the filming that they were trying to film the scene with an actual shadow doing the killing, and not the CGI monster... they showed an extra's shadow being filmed with a sword, rearing back against the tent... guess it just didn't work in production and they decided to go the CGI route...

but I agree that unlike, say ned's death, which I thought HBO did amazingly well, renly's just lacked the expected shock, horror, and importance it had in the book...

#10 Buckwheat

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:24 PM

I don't understand the barred gate scene? Renly was camped in a tent. Why did they construct bars in a cave on a cliff? If it was to an underground entrance to Storms End that would make sense but they can't have been at Storms End as Renly would be staying in his castle if it was. Why be in a cave by the sea anyway? And what were the bars blocking an entrance to?? Mel said something like "they've blocked it now". Has she been there before? If Renly was camped on his way to KL his army would be strewn accross fields. Its unlikely that Mel or even Stannis knows of specific caves in the cliff of a random field.

Is it me or have they seriously dropped the ball in places this season? Was this part of something that was much bigger until the cutting room floor and now sticks out like a sore thumb. They should have reshot that scene to fit in. I originally thought it was a cliff hanger and the location explanation would be explained this episode but no, its just random.

I agree with everything you said. The scene in the cave makes me think they were shooting the Storm's End chapter, only later they used the scene for Renly's murder.

The shadow is not like I imagined it, I always thought it was more like an actual shadow, that is, two-dimensional, seen only as projected on the canvas of the tent, but I liked it the way it looked on the show, too. I just did not have many expectations from that scene.

#11 turdle

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:50 PM

but I agree that unlike, say ned's death, which I thought HBO did amazingly well, renly's just lacked the expected shock, horror, and importance it had in the book...


well there was no way they were going to be able to make it = to neds death, i think the main hindrance is the order in which they showed the shadow.

#12 Fantôme

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:30 PM

I've seen posts and heard from a lot of non readers who dislike the shadow baby's appearance with comments like " if he(Stannis) can cast a super invincible "smoke killer" why doesn't he just send it to kill joffrey or the whole enemy army. It's stupid / It's too easy / It doesn't make any sense ..." . I wasn't on any forum when reading aCoK so i don't know about everybody else but that certainly wasn't my reaction following renly's death.

#13 Tadco26

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 08:45 AM

I've seen posts and heard from a lot of non readers who dislike the shadow baby's appearance with comments like " if he(Stannis) can cast a super invincible "smoke killer" why doesn't he just send it to kill joffrey or the whole enemy army. It's stupid / It's too easy / It doesn't make any sense ..." . I wasn't on any forum when reading aCoK so i don't know about everybody else but that certainly wasn't my reaction following renly's death.


The thing is that in the books it is implied that the process of making one of the babies is draining the life from Stannis, making him look older, and more gaunt. He can't make an army of shadow babies because it would kill him. In the show they have not laid out any repercussions for making them at this point.

#14 Targh

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 05:36 AM

So, I heard this described as a cervix-to-heir missile.

I just had to share that.

#15 Iszlai Ádám

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 03:29 PM

I am totally disappointed with the shadow scene. In the movie its not a shadow, its more like "black smoke". An actual shadow would have been a lot creepier, mystical, and i presume it would've cost a LOT LESS. They could've turned that CGI money on other more important things.

#16 I'll pay the iron price

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:26 AM

I thought the shadow scenes were well done, poor Renly never knew what hit him!

#17 Darth Pipes

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 04:17 PM

They should have stuck with the shadow. Far cooler and creepier, not to mention cheaper for them to do. Use that money elsewhere.

#18 Stag Country

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:43 AM

Did anyone ever figure out why they needed to swim under a gate to release this 'Shadow'....only for it to be out in an open field at a tent when it killed him?