67 replies to this topic

[Bran Vras]

Since I prefer slower discussions, I generally don't post in the General Forum. But this topic did not catch the attention I think I hoped it would get in the ADwD forum. I repost here in hope of reaching more people and getting more feedback. We'll see how it goes.

Essentially, it's the remark that Jaqen H'Ghar's second face is strangely similar to the face of Daario Naharis (the resemblance to the Alchemist in Oldtown is well known, no need to insist on this).

First the evidence. Here is Jaqen when he changes his face (Arya, ACoK).

Quote

His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls.
[...]
He grinned, revealing a shiny gold tooth.

Here is the Alchemist (Prologue, AFfC)

Quote

He was just a man, and his face was just a face. A young man’s face, ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly around his ears.

All elements are there, except the most significant one, the golden tooth. The description of Daario is scattered throughout various chapters. GRRM is careful not to ring our alarm bells by changing the vocabulary and making Daario dress flamboyantly. Here are the relevant passages (all from Daenery, ASoS, except the last one from ADwD)

Quote

His beard was cut into three prongs and dyed blue, the same color as his eyes and the curly hair that fell to his collar. His pointed mustachios were painted gold. His clothes were all shades of yellow; a foam of Myrish lace the color of butter spilled from his collar and cuffs, his doublet was sewn with brass medallions in the shape of dandelions, and ornamental goldwork crawled up his high leather boots to his thighs. Gloves of soft yellow suede were tucked into a belt of gilded rings, and his fingernails were enameled blue.
[...]
Daario was fair where Jorah was swarthy; lithe where the knight was brawny; graced with flowing locks where the other was balding, yet smooth-skinned where Jorah was hairy. And her knight dressed plainly while this other made a peacock look drab, though he had thrown a heavy black cloak over his bright yellow finery for this visit.
[...]
His hands were large and strong, and there was something in his hard blue eyes and great curving nose that suggested the fierceness of some splendid bird of prey.
[...]
A golden tooth gleamed in his mouth when he smiled.
[...]
tracing his scars and making him tell her how he’d come by every one.

The elements are there (golden tooth, hooked nose, curly hair) except perhaps the facial scar. The scar is easily visible on Jaqen. The presumed identical scar is barely visible on the Alchemist, who has a shadow of a beard. Therefore such a scar would likely be hidden by a full beard, like Daario's. Dany notes scars when in bed with Daario. We can suppose that Dany could see or touch the scar behind the beard when she is close to her lover. But it's not said explicitly that there is a facial scar.

It's unlikely to be a coincidence for two reasons:
1) The first reason has to do with numbers. There are three golden teeth mentioned in the whole series (Jaqen, Daario and Garin the orphan, if we discount Mord the goaler whose tooth only appears in the show, as Frey Pie remarked in the original thread). I counted ten hooked noses in the books (Jaqen, Daario, the Alchemist, four Kettlebacks, Sandor, Hos Blackwood, Asha). Curly hair are not very common (the Lannisters' curly hair are often mentioned though).
2) Jaqen's second face has several specific and uncommon features, so that we could recognize the face. It's unlikely that GRRM reproduced them deliberately in the Alchemist and by accident in Daario.

If one accepts that it is not a coincidence, it means that Daario could be a Faceless Man. I see mainly two lines of explanations:
a] Jaqen, the Alchemist and Daario are the same person (the same... no one so to speak).
b] The same face has been dispatched to several agents by the Faceless Men.

I can't say much about b]. I would be pleased to see arguments for or against a].
The option a] implies that Jaqen went to Meereen as Daario, then came to Oldtown as the Alchemist and went back later to Meereen as Daario. I admit it is convoluted, but it is not precluded by the timeline. Briefly, here is why.

There was enough time to disappear from Harrenhal and reappear in Meereen between the middle of ACoK and the middle of ASoS. During the first part of ADwD, Daario is sent to a long mission to Lhazar and Dany knows nothing of his whereabouts. We don't know when Daario left Meereen for the mission. When the Alchemist is in Oldtown, Tywin Lannister is still believed to be alive. Tyrion left King's Landing after the death of Tywin (obviously) and reached Meereen almost three monthes after Daario (who arrived in Meereen ninety days before Dany's marriage), and his trip was suboptimal because of the long journey along the Rhoyne and various misadventures.

There are a few details in favor of option a]:
– The Alchemist arrives in Oldtown precisely when rumours of dragons in Meereen reach the city. That might not be coincidental. Indeed, the Alchemist could have been in the same ship that brought the rumours.
– If the Alchemist is in search of the fabled book on dragons hidden in the Citadel, it makes good sense that he is (or is an agent of) someone well aware of Dany's situation with the dragons. Who in Westeros could qualify?

And a few problems:
– Daario's behaviour and personnality might seem at odds with being a Faceless Man.
– How could Daario have left the Stormcrows to accomplish the mission in Lhazar?

More observations and details are to be found in the original thread. (For the record, I shall say that I am not particularly fond of the idea that Jaqen is Daario.)

[The Mother of The Others]

He sure does get around.

[DoctorSwerve]

I'm leaning towards no.  I think that Daario's description is being read into too much and there is only a little circumstantial evidence.  Jaqen is definitely the Alchemist though.

[csm]

But Daario is Euron.

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm having difficulty finding it in the text, but for some reason I do recall it being mentioned that it takes two years to travel from the free cities to the Jade Sea and back by ship.  The Jade Sea is obviously beyond Slaver's Bay, but Westeros is beyond the free cities.  Let's say that the text I'm recalling is about a trader stopping in many ports and so the trip is cut in half by just sailing straight through.  That would still be at least 6 months one way.  Going overland has it's own perils, and one would still have to use a ship to cross the Narrow Sea to go on to Westeros and Oldtown.  Even without a proper timeline, it's inconceivable that Dany would have been waiting a year or two years for Daario to return from the mission she sent him on in Lhazar, especially since Lhazar borders Slaver's Bay to the north.  We don't know how long it takes to cross the Sunset Sea or even if it can be done, so unless Daario knows these secrets, I think it's unlikely that Daario, Jaqen and the Alchemist are the same men based on the assumed timeline.

There's also a significant difference in the hair.  Jaqen and the Alchemist have short, tight curls cut close to the ear while Daario has long, flowing locks that happen to be curly.  If it's two different Faceless Men using the same face, could the magic of the face changing allow the hair to grow?

I think any similarities in description between Daario and Jaqen/the Alchemist are coincidental.  That is not to say that they do not have a connection in some way, but I don't think they are the same person or the same face.

What I found most interesting in Daario's description is that his eyes are so dark blue that they almost appear violet.  Maybe they are violet  and his dyed blue hair makes them appear blue.  There's another character who employed this trick....Young Griff/Aegon.

[Apple Martini]

Daario is still in Slaver's Bay and Jaqen is still in Oldtown. So unless either of them can be in two places at once, I don't see how they're the same person.

ETA: That is to say, it's not as simple as just saying that Jaqen "could" have gone to Meereen, then to Oldtown and I guess back to Meereen. (I don't think there's nearly enough time to do all of that without going missing during long stretches.) At the end of Feast, Sam meets "Pate," whom we know to actually be Jaqen in disguise. Feast and Dance, except for a brief part of the book, roughly line up with one another. So even if you assume that Jaqen could have gone back and forth between Meereen and Oldtown multiple times, that doesn't explain how he could be in Oldtown impersonating Pate while at the same time being in Meereen impersonating Daario. It's not that Jaqen just went to Oldtown, killed Pate and promptly left. He went to Oldtown, killed Pate and he's still there.

Edited by Apple Martini, 30 April 2012 - 07:12 PM.

[Bran Vras]

What is brought to the table is that Jaqen is described with curly hair, hooked nose, golden tooth (characteristics which are uncommon to very rare) and a scar and, take away all flamboyance, Daario has these characteristics. When GRRM introduced Jaqen's face, he knew his readers would check the description everywhere. So they are not in Daario by accident. And observe the tricks employed by GRRM to prevent the reader to notice the resemblance (the scar behind the beard, the diversion with the Alchemist and Pate, Daario's outrageous behaviour and appearance).

The subject of the thread is: how do you explain that?

I am willing to play the game of defending the notion that Daario, the Alchemist and Jaqen are the same person (once again, I am not particularly fond of the idea). How do you demolish that with textual evidence?

To answer the first few trivial objections.

Of course, we don't know that the Alchemist is Pate. That's an extrapolation (not absurd, in my opinion, but not self evident either). And, the notion has its problems. Is there a known technique of the Faceless Men to borrow somebody else's appearance and memories? If that's the case, any character of the story might be a Faceless Man in disguise. If not, how is it possible to impersonate someone in his/her familiar environment without appearing amnesiac?

Like everybody else I first thought that the timeline wouldn't allow Daario to leave Meereen for Oldtown and come back. As disagreeable the idea may be, a close look reveals that it is not precluded. The argument is in the OP, but can be discussed further. (I welcome any correction on my understanding of the timeline. I have checked the text and looked at Errant's Bard timeline.)

Dr. Pepper, on 30 April 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

I'm having difficulty finding it in the text, but for some reason I do recall it being mentioned that it takes two years to travel from the free cities to the Jade Sea and back by ship.

Definitely not. Consider Quentyn's journey, or Vicarion's, or Tyrion's, or Barristan's.

There is a mention by Illyrio that the ship that brings Tyrion to Pentos will go then to Asshai and won't be back before two years. But that's Asshai, and who knows what commercial itinerary the ship might be making?

Edited by Bran Vras, 30 April 2012 - 08:43 PM.

[Dragonfish]

Bran Vras, on 30 April 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

Of course, we don't know that the Alchemist is Pate. That's an extrapolation (not absurd, in my opinion, but not self evident either). And, the notion has its problems. Is there a known technique of the Faceless Men to borrow somebody else's appearance and memories? If that's the case, any character of the story might be a Faceless Man in disguise. If not, how is it possible to impersonate someone in his/her familiar environment without appearing amnesiac?

Alchemist-Pate is actually shown to be a bit ignorant of Pate's true personality. Pate hated it when people called him "pig boy", yet Alchemist-Pate voluntarily tells Sam his name is "like the pig boy." I think this is meant to be a clue that he is not who he says he is.

[Apple Martini]

I "demolish it with textual evidence" using what I said before — Jaqen/the Alchemist kills Pate in the prologue and steals his identity, as evidenced by "Pate" greeting Sam at the end of Feast for Crows. We know Pate is dead, but yet here he is. ETA: As Dragondish astutely pointed out, new Pate's willingness to associate with the "pig boy" story is a deviation from the old Pate's hatred of it — thus confirming that no, it's not the original Pate. The only conclusion to draw is that the Alchemist — Jaqen — stole Pate's face and is now impersonating him. With what you're proposing, you're saying that Jaqen had the time to go from Harrenhal to Meereen (meeting Dany) to Oldtown (to kill Pate) back to Meereen (after Dany sends him on to Lhazar, I guess?) and then back to Oldtown (to greet Sam as Pate) and then back to Meereen (where he is now, a hostage), which is kind of ludicrous unless there's a teleportation device laying around. There might be time for one round trip but not two or three (and I think even one is pushing it), and to my knowledge Daario has just the one absence, to Lhazar, which I'm pretty sure didn't last long enough for him to complete the diplomatic mission and sail halfway around the world and back. Daario was given just the Lhazar job, which he completed. That would sort of explain one (short) absence, but not any more than that. And the Pate impersonation would kind of be blown if "Pate" disappeared for six months on end only to turn up again, only to disappear again. The common sense conclusion is that, when Sam meets "Pate," "Pate" — Jaqen — has been in Oldtown the entire time. And if Jaqen's been in Oldtown as Pate, he can't have been in Meereen as Daario.  

As for the physical characteristics that sort of overlap ... Daario is from Tyrosh. Wherever Jaqen got the Alchemist's face, it stands to reason that that person was also from the Free Cities. I don't think it's a logical stretch to assume that men from the same part of the world might share certain physical features.

Normally I can't make heads or tails of your posts because I honestly don't understand what points you're trying to make, discussing elephants and building materials and whatever else. But this, I think you're hitting a dead end. Unless you can explain how Jaqen could have gotten from Harrenhal to Meereen to Oldtown to Meereen to Oldtown to Meereen without absences being noted (in Pate's case and in Daario's, other than the Lhazar trip), I don't see how this idea makes any sense. Especially if all you have as evidence is physical characteristics — two men from southern Dorne might both have long dark hair and olive skin and maybe even similar facial features, but that doesn't mean it's the same guy.

Edited by Apple Martini, 30 April 2012 - 09:06 PM.

[LifeRuiner]

I quite unironically applaud that you counted golden teeth and hooked noses in these books. Sometimes I really like this board and its crazy theories.

[Lykos]

@Bran Vras
I know that your way of scrutinising details is yielding results, most of the time not the results I´d have expected, but always enriching and fun.  If I just wouldn´t be so lazy, I think I could add something more relevant to your theory.

I think Jaqen H'Ghar as we first met him, with red and white hair, is now posing as Pate, for the reasons Dragonfish and Apple Martini posted, but I think it very likely that he used a glamour  to change his face to look like the Alchimist.  He did it in front of Arya and didn´t have a face of the FM cabinet at hand.  I think it´s more likely he used a glamour to look like the Alchimist than Jaqen H'Ghar, because he could have taken the identity of Jaqen at the start of his mission (this rules out that Jaqen is Sirio) and he had to pose as Jaqen for a longer time than as Alchemist.

I think it´s very likely that he used a face he was familiar with for the glamour, maybe one he´d worn before.  So I think it very possible that Daario is a Faceless Man and I don´t think his behaviour is at odds with being a FM, it´s the best way of coming close to the dragons without raising suspicion of being interested in them or that something sneaky is going on, hiding loudly in plain sight.

Spelling.

Edited by Lykos, 30 April 2012 - 09:16 PM.

[Apple Martini]

^ You know what? I'm willing to believe that Daario might — might — be a Faceless Man infiltrating Dany's operation to get close to the dragons (and, you know, sex with her). I do not believe, at all, that the guy impersonating Pate in Oldtown is the same guy strutting around Meereen.

Edited by Apple Martini, 30 April 2012 - 09:18 PM.

[thetitansbastard]

Bran Vras, on 30 April 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

If one accepts that it is not a coincidence, it means that Daario could be a Faceless Man. I see mainly two lines of explanations:
a] Jaqen, the Alchemist and Daario are the same person (the same... no one so to speak).
b] The same face has been dispatched to several agents by the Faceless Men.

I think a] is a bit out there mainly for timeline reasons outlined above, but b] is somewhat viable.  Its just as practical as the popular theory that Jaqen is the same person as Alchemist/Pate (but not Daario), the more I think about it.

[Dr. Pepper]

Bran Vras, on 30 April 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

Definitely not. Consider Quentyn's journey, or Vicarion's, or Tyrion's, or Barristan's.

There is a mention by Illyrio that the ship that brings Tyrion to Pentos will go then to Asshai and won't be back before two years. But that's Asshai, and who knows what commercial itinerary the ship might be making?

Look, Asshai is beyond Slaver's Bay, and Westeros is beyond Pentos.  I even subtracted half of the time to eliminate the potential commercial stops a trading ship would make along the way.  Even if we cut that half in half, that's still six months for a ship to go from Pentos to Asshai and back allowing for the unforeseeable like poor weather or pirate attacks.

How long do you think it would have taken a small group of people to go from Meereen to Lhazar and back to Meereen?  Lhazar is fairly close.  Let's say no more than two months.  Maybe it's pushing three months by the time Dany starts to grow worried.  If it'd taken longer than that, wouldn't she have gone from merely worried and anxious to resolved that Daario's mission had failed?  Having Dany wait six months is stretching it in ways that make no sense.

There's no evidence that Quentyn, Tyrion, Victarion, or Barristan made the journey from parts of Westeros to Qarth and Slaver's Bay in under three months.  Even just sailing across the Narrow Sea takes much more than week, and that's in good weather.  Sam and Gilly and Aemon and the babe were on a boat for a pretty long while from Braavos to Oldtown.  Quentyn had left Dorne before Arianne had ever been locked in the tower.  His group encountered plenty of hardships along the way, same as Victarion, same as Tyrion.  None of these journey's were a straight shot with no stops or incidents along the way.  And while we are never given a specific timeline, there are enough hints that just getting one way from Westeros to Slaver's Bay took months.

It would be nearly unbelievable to think that Daario could have been so lucky to have gone from Meereen all the way to Oldtown, diddle about, and then get all the way back to Meereen without any unforeseeable mishaps.  No pirate attacks, no stalls due to weather (on ground or at sea), always finding just the right ship sailing from Essos to Westeros and on to Oldtown.  Jaqen's conversation with Arya at Harrenhal notes that FM do not have magical forms of transportation.  They have to get from point A to point B just like any other person.


I could maybe buy that Daario has connections with the Faceless Men or he is one himself.  I could even buy that they are using the same face.  But I can not buy that he and Jaqen are the same people.  As others have pointed out, there's plenty of evidence to support Jaqen impersonating Pate at the Citadel.  The only way Daario could be Jaqen is if the Essosi timeline is well ahead of the Westerosi timeline (which is something I think is possible and I've been collecting evidence to present the theory), but it still doesn't account for Dany being anxious for Daario's return instead of resolved that he probably won't return.

[Bran Vras]

Lykos, on 30 April 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

@Bran Vras
I know that your way of scrutinising details is yielding results, most of the time not the results I´d have expected, but always enriching and fun.  If I just wouldn´t be so lazy, I think I could add something more relevant to your theory.

Thank you Lykos. It's always nice to have you as an interlocutor.

@Apple Martini
I can't believe that you can't make head or tails of my posts. Plenty of people can and you are evidently not dumb. How is it that you can't have a mutually enjoyable conversation with me on the subjects I propose? Have you been conditioned to be restricted to the subjects that run in circle in the General Forum, with the same arguments coming up over and over?

I am proud of the Stone against Wood thread that you kindly mention. It was fun to look at the succession of castles which leads up to the Eyrie, to examine in detail Barrow Hall, Deepwood Motte and compare with other Northern keeps, to realize that the Blackwoods leave in a timber keep inside fortified stone walls, while their ancestors were buried under cairns, to guess the successive phases of the history of the north in terms of construction material (unmortared stones, wood, mortar), to see that the Starks might have displaced an ancient horse culture represented by the Ryswells etc. It is very much to the credit of GRRM to have been able to tell his story also on these terms. In the end, it made me understand better Lady Dustin and the Ryswells in the current showdown in Winterfell. Read with an open mind, and maybe that will widen your horizons, and you are welcome to widen mine in turn.

The elephant thread was also fun and might suggest interesting things on what is going on in Volantis. Even if the opening post is a bit cryptic, you'll find clear explanations downthread.

You have noticed that I try to be attentive to details, and to back up with text what I propose (an habit that enhance conversation on these forums, in my opinion). I might be wrong sometimes, but I am not lazy. Consequently, I am pleased to meet attentive interlocutors.  And I have noticed that you tend not to read me carefully. To prove my point, you say:

Apple Martini, on 30 April 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

With what you're proposing, you're saying that Jaqen had the time to go from Harrenhal to Meereen (meeting Dany) to Oldtown (to kill Pate) back to Meereen (after Dany sends him on to Lhazar, I guess?) and then back to Oldtown (to greet Sam as Pate) and then back to Meereen (where he is now, a hostage), which is kind of ludicrous unless there's a teleportation device laying around.

I did not suggest that Daario went as second time to Oldtown to impersonate Pate. I am not attached to the notion that the Alchemist impersonates Pate.

In launching this thread, I hoped to find an expert in the timeline as an interlocutor. I have looked at the timeline more thoroughly than what I said in the OP. I would be perfectly happy to see the arguments that contradict me laid out under my eyes. But, I want a precise reasoning.

Note again, the point I am making here is that Daario's face can't be identical to Jaqen's by accident. I am completely open minded about the interpretation.

(In the interest of good discussion, please don't use the word ludicrous, especially since you misunderstood me. You might learn something by respecting what other people are saying. Otherwise, you end up like Dany in Meereen.)

Apple Martini, on 30 April 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

As for the physical characteristics that sort of overlap ... Daario is from Tyrosh. Wherever Jaqen got the Alchemist's face, it stands to reason that that person was also from the Free Cities. I don't think it's a logical stretch to assume that men from the same part of the world might share certain physical features.

Leaving aside the golden tooth and the scar, a perfectly fine argument. Then show me one person in Braavos, in Volantis, in Pentos etc who remotely matches the description. I know there isn't. I have looked.

[thetitansbastard]

Bran Vras, on 30 April 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

I did not suggest that Daario went as second time to Oldtown to impersonate Pate. I am not attached to the notion that the Alchemist impersonates Pate.

I'm definitely attached to the notion that the Alchemist impersonates Pate.  Do you concede that if this is true, there are timeline issues?  Now whether or not Jaqen is the Alchemist, I'm not quite as certain.  Which is why I like your second theory in the OP much better.

[Jon Flowers]

Bran Vras, on 30 April 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

Thank you Lykos. It's always nice to have you as an interlocutor.

@Apple Martini
I can't believe that you can't make head or tails of my posts. Plenty of people can and you are evidently not dumb. How is it that you can't have a mutually enjoyable conversation with me on the subjects I propose? Have you been conditioned to be restricted to the subjects that run in circle in the General Forum, with the same arguments coming up over and over?

I am proud of the Stone against Wood thread that you kindly mention. It was fun to look at the succession of castles which leads up to the Eyrie, to examine in detail Barrow Hall, Deepwood Motte and compare with other Northern keeps, to realize that the Blackwoods leave in a timber keep inside fortified stone walls, while their ancestors were buried under cairns, to guess the successive phases of the history of the north in terms of construction material (unmortared stones, wood, mortar), to see that the Starks might have displaced an ancient horse culture represented by the Ryswells etc. It is very much to the credit of GRRM to have been able to tell his story also on these terms. In the end, it made me understand better Lady Dustin and the Ryswells in the current showdown in Winterfell. Read with an open mind, and maybe that will widen your horizons, and you are welcome to widen mine in turn.

The elephant thread was also fun and might suggest interesting things on what is going on in Volantis. Even if the opening post is a bit cryptic, you'll find clear explanations downthread.

You have noticed that I try to be attentive to details, and to back up with text what I propose (an habit that enhance conversation on these forums, in my opinion). I might be wrong sometimes, but I am not lazy. Consequently, I am pleased to meet attentive interlocutors.  And I have noticed that you tend not to read me carefully. To prove my point, you say:



I did not suggest that Daario went as second time to Oldtown to impersonate Pate. I am not attached to the notion that the Alchemist impersonates Pate.

In launching this thread, I hoped to find an expert in the timeline as an interlocutor. I have looked at the timeline more thoroughly than what I said in the OP. I would be perfectly happy to see the arguments that contradict me laid out under my eyes. But, I want a precise reasoning.

Note again, the point I am making here is that Daario's face can't be identical to Jaqen's by accident. I am completely open minded about the interpretation.

(In the interest of good discussion, please don't use the word ludicrous, especially since you misunderstood me. You might learn something by respecting what other people are saying. Otherwise, you end up like Dany in Meereen.)



Leaving aside the golden tooth and the scar, a perfectly fine argument. Then show me one person in Braavos, in Volantis, in Pentos etc who remotely matches the description. I know there isn't. I have looked.

Asking someone to disprove an argument is not logical at all.  The burden of profe lies with the affirmative, and the negative is assumed until that is accomplished.  Your proof is lacking, especially in regard to the timeline and rests entirely upon the similar appearances of two characters widely seperated by time and space.  You have every right to come up with wild theories and even to propose them if such is you inclination but please try to support them with concrete evidence and don't assume them as fact until the rest of us disprove them.

Edited by Jon Flowers, 30 April 2012 - 10:55 PM.

[Apple Martini]

Bran Vras, on 30 April 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

I did not suggest that Daario went as second time to Oldtown to impersonate Pate. I am not attached to the notion that the Alchemist impersonates Pate.

Then who is impersonating Pate? Because the guy Sam meets is not the same guy from the Prologue.

I don't participate in your threads because, to be honest, in addition to not totally understanding what it is you're getting at, I think you read too much into a lot of things and rely too heavily on minutiae to validate your arguments. But you obviously enjoy writing them and you have an audience for them, so godspeed. But they're not for me.

Edited by Apple Martini, 30 April 2012 - 11:12 PM.

[Bran Vras]

LifeRuiner, on 30 April 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

I quite unironically applaud that you counted golden teeth and hooked noses in these books. Sometimes I really like this board and its crazy theories.

Thank you. The search function is a good friend.

Dr. Pepper, on 30 April 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

Look, Asshai is beyond Slaver's Bay, and Westeros is beyond Pentos.  I even subtracted half of the time to eliminate the potential commercial stops a trading ship would make along the way.  Even if we cut that half in half, that's still six months for a ship to go from Pentos to Asshai and back allowing for the unforeseeable like poor weather or pirate attacks.

How long do you think it would have taken a small group of people to go from Meereen to Lhazar and back to Meereen?  Lhazar is fairly close.  Let's say no more than two months.  Maybe it's pushing three months by the time Dany starts to grow worried.  If it'd taken longer than that, wouldn't she have gone from merely worried and anxious to resolved that Daario's mission had failed?  Having Dany wait six months is stretching it in ways that make no sense.

There's no evidence that Quentyn, Tyrion, Victarion, or Barristan made the journey from parts of Westeros to Qarth and Slaver's Bay in under three months.  Even just sailing across the Narrow Sea takes much more than week, and that's in good weather.  Sam and Gilly and Aemon and the babe were on a boat for a pretty long while from Braavos to Oldtown.  Quentyn had left Dorne before Arianne had ever been locked in the tower.  His group encountered plenty of hardships along the way, same as Victarion, same as Tyrion.  None of these journey's were a straight shot with no stops or incidents along the way.  And while we are never given a specific timeline, there are enough hints that just getting one way from Westeros to Slaver's Bay took months.

It would be nearly unbelievable to think that Daario could have been so lucky to have gone from Meereen all the way to Oldtown, diddle about, and then get all the way back to Meereen without any unforeseeable mishaps.  No pirate attacks, no stalls due to weather (on ground or at sea), always finding just the right ship sailing from Essos to Westeros and on to Oldtown.  Jaqen's conversation with Arya at Harrenhal notes that FM do not have magical forms of transportation.  They have to get from point A to point B just like any other person.

I could maybe buy that Daario has connections with the Faceless Men or he is one himself.  I could even buy that they are using the same face.  But I can not buy that he and Jaqen are the same people.  As others have pointed out, there's plenty of evidence to support Jaqen impersonating Pate at the Citadel.  The only way Daario could be Jaqen is if the Essosi timeline is well ahead of the Westerosi timeline (which is something I think is possible and I've been collecting evidence to present the theory), but it still doesn't account for Dany being anxious for Daario's return instead of resolved that he probably won't return.

I am going to detail the reasoning outlined in the OP. Try to demolish that.

For the trip from Meereen to Oldtown. When the Alchemist is in Oldtown, the rumours that Dragons are in Meereen just reached the city. Hence the Alchemist might have traveled with the rumours (and that can even be a hint that he has). We don't know when Daario left Meereen. But he might have left soon after Dany took the City. In that case, there is no doubt that he can be in Oldtown in time for being the Alchemist.

For the return trip, we can mark time by noticing that Tywin Lannister is still alive when the Alchemist is in the Citadel. So Tyrion has not left KIng's Landing yet. Tyrion arrived in Meereen just before Dany's marriage. Daario returned to Meereen ninety days before the marriage (it was on the day Dany made her promise to Hizdhar). So Tyrion left probably not long after the Alchemist was in Oldtown, and arrived almost three monthes later. But Tyrion took a long trip along the Rhoyne on a pole boat and had various misadventures, Illyrio's Mansion, Illyrio's palanquin, kidnapping by Jorah Mormont, ship not headed to Meereen, pirate attack. So the delay is not unreasonable.

Of course I can't say much about Daario's means of travel. But I would suggest that Daario is some kind of agent, and that the power which employs him has put at his disposal good and relatively secure means of transportation, that would spare him most the annoyances suffered by Quentyn and Tyrion (say imagine Quentyn's trip without having to spend a month in Volantis to find a ship, not having to join a sellsword company in a slow ship, not having to fight in Astapor before going to Meereen).

So events happen in this order, Dany conquer Meereen, the news reach Oldtown, the Alchemist is there, Tywin dies, Tyrion leaves King's Landing, Daario returns to Meereen, Tyrion reaches Meereen almost three monthes later.

It's possible to compare with Quentyn's travel as well.

When Dany asks Daario about the details of his mission to Lhazar, Daario is evasive. Any way you cut it, Daario's mission to Lhazar lasted at least the time needed to travel from Meereen to Oldtown plus the time needed to go from King's Landing to Meereen via the Rhoyne plus all the delays suffered by Tyrion minus ninety days. It seems that fits.

(I was aware of your good remark about the all natural means of transportation of the Faceless Men. It was even in the other thread.)

Dragonfish, on 30 April 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Alchemist-Pate is actually shown to be a bit ignorant of Pate's true personality. Pate hated it when people called him "pig boy", yet Alchemist-Pate voluntarily tells Sam his name is "like the pig boy." I think this is meant to be a clue that he is not who he says he is.

Thank you. I shall look at that. But that's not enough obviously. What is the other evidence that the Alchemist is impersonating Pate?

[Apple Martini]

Bran Vras, on 30 April 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

Thank you. I shall look at that. But that's not enough obviously. What is the other evidence that the Alchemist is impersonating Pate?

If it's not the Alchemist, who is it? The Alchemist is the last person to interact with Pate before his death. There's no evidence that the Alchemist is working in league with anyone else. You have to show that there's proof of another person in the Jaqen-Pate equation. Otherwise, you're back to have to explain the Harrenhal-to-Meereen-to-Oldtown-Meereen-to-Oldtown-to-Meereen thing.