Queen Jeyne Westerling/Theories
Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:21 AM
This is based off the very different descriptions of Jeyne given by Cat and later by Jaime. Specifically Cat references her "full hips" which are great for child bearing and that she should be fertile. Later on Jaime says that she has "narrow hips".
So some have suggested that perhaps Jeyne was pregnant and was switched with someone in the household so that she could escape with the Blackfish and give birth to Robb's child (hopefully a SON).
I hope its true and I hope we find out more about her in the next book. I'm also hoping Edmure Tully is freed soon so he can rally Riverrun and fight back against those treacherous Freys.
Posted 01 May 2012 - 03:34 PM
Posted 01 May 2012 - 04:26 PM
You have aegon/young griff, targaryon/blackfyre, arya/no one, griff/jon, reek/theon, jenye pool/arya, mance/bael, mance/rattleshirt, the aegon baby switch, the monster and mance baby switch
Makes sense for jenye westerling to be switched as well
Posted 01 May 2012 - 05:26 PM
Posted 01 May 2012 - 06:52 PM
If Jeyne's switched, it's obvious her mother is part of the plot. And she's not the first person to cross the Lannisters...
Someone should really ask GRRM about Jeyne's hips. I wonder what his reaction would be.
Edited by dreamcatcher, 01 May 2012 - 06:53 PM.
Posted 01 May 2012 - 06:53 PM
My theory is, Jeyne, Edmure, her sister and the Blackfish schemed together on the fly right before Riverrun surrendered. Jeyne escaped with the Blackfish without her mother knowing, and Sybell had no choice but to go along with it, pretending that Jeyne's sister was Jeyne. She can't tell Jaime that she lost Jeyne, so she has to go with the plot, unwillingly, because the alternative isn't an option. Jaime sees "Jeyne" with a dried sore and marks on her face and asks about them. Sybell says she resisted when they took her crown — but we never see this crown, and Jaime never receives it in surrender. My idea is, Sybell slapped Elenya around when she found out Jeyne had escaped, and those were the marks Jaime saw. As for "crossing the Lannisters" — Tywin is dead by then and the house is in disarray. If you're going to pull one over on them, now's the time.
Jeyne escaping with Brynden doesn't necessarily point to her being pregnant, but that makes the most sense. The only proof that Sybell gave Jeyne moon tea is what she told Jaime. I think it's possible for her to have hedged her bets — giving Jeyne a fertility potion when Robb was in power, with the knowledge that she could always help abort it if something happened. She never got the chance to abort the baby, but with Elenya there in Jeyne's place — who was assuredly not pregnant — Sybell could tell the moon tea lie and not get caught in it, for the foreseeable future. There's also the chance that Jeyne or someone else figured out that she was getting moon tea, and stopped taking the potion.
There are a few clues that something's up. The girls' hips don't match. Jeyne's sister isn't on the inventory when Jaime's there. He sees a girl with narrow hips who resembles Jeyne — it could easily be her sister. The girl covering her face and shredding her clothes could be ways to hide her identity from westermen who might recognize her, and hide an ill fit of clothes that weren't made for her, respectively. The Blackfish emphasized his vow to defend Robb's queen, so why would he abandon her?
The tricky part was always reconciling Sybell's scheming with the possibility of Jeyne being switched. But if you have the scenario I described above, there's no conflict.
Posted 01 May 2012 - 06:53 PM
Clearly she would know what her daughter looks like so the whole scene with Jaime wouldn't much sense unless she knew and was acting....
Posted 01 May 2012 - 07:12 PM
Like I said, I think that's the likeliest possibility. Jeyne slipped out with the Blackfish without her mother knowing, and Sybell is now forced to play along with the charade with Elenya, because the consequences otherwise would be severe. I think the evidence of abuse "Jeyne" has on her face is woefully overlooked — if Sybell took Jeyne's crown from her and she put up a fight, where's the crown now? Shouldn't Sybell give it to Jaime as a token of surrender, as is usually done in such cases? It's mentioned but Jaime doesn't follow up on it and we never see it. I think it's more likely that Sybell took out her anger on her other daughter when she found out Jeyne was missing, and that's what Jaime saw.
Posted 01 May 2012 - 07:20 PM
The only thing that bothers me is that Elenya is 12 and Jaime describes her as "no more than 15 or 16"....
Posted 01 May 2012 - 07:25 PM
By then she would be 13. A taller girl who hadn't hit puberty yet could be mistaken for a 15- or 16-year-old with narrow hips. Tyrion thought Jon was like 12, for pete's sake. People see what they want.
Posted 01 May 2012 - 08:05 PM
Posted 01 May 2012 - 08:21 PM
Just encouraging a healthy debate - Elanya was described as a "little girl" in ASoS. I don't think she's tall... But I sure as hell hope that that was her and Jeyne's pregnant somewhere (or already given birth... I don't know the timeline).
Posted 01 May 2012 - 08:43 PM
Posted 01 May 2012 - 08:44 PM
Posted 01 May 2012 - 08:49 PM
For context, Roslin Frey and Edmure Tully conceived their baby on the day of the Red Wedding, and she has yet to give birth. So if Robb and Jeyne conceived a baby right before he went to his death, it's not out of the question to assume that Jeyne simply hasn't given birth yet.
Edited by Apple Martini, 01 May 2012 - 08:50 PM.
Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:05 PM
Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:16 PM
Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:17 PM
More like early to mid 6th book. Robb died at the end of year 299 after Aegons landing. Based on the fact that book one starts in early 298, we're probably close to the end of year 300. So, if Jeyne got Pregnant in 299, she will probably have the baby soon or already has.
Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:49 PM
Posted 01 May 2012 - 10:33 PM
Robbs was with him at the Red Wedding. Which is why it's now with the Freys outside Riverrun.