126 replies to this topic

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

Theres been speculation I've read on other boards that she was switched before Jaime Lannister and the Freys took over Riverrun. I wanted to see what other people thought about this.

This is based off the very different descriptions of Jeyne given by Cat and later by Jaime. Specifically Cat references her "full hips" which are great for child bearing and that she should be fertile. Later on Jaime says that she has "narrow hips".

So some have suggested that perhaps Jeyne was pregnant and was switched with someone in the household so that she could escape with the Blackfish and give birth to Robb's child (hopefully a SON).

I hope its true and I hope we find out more about her in the next book. I'm also hoping Edmure Tully is freed soon so he can rally Riverrun and fight back against those treacherous Freys.

[John Reynolds]

I'm hoping for a Red Wedding v2.0 pulled off by the BWB during the Frey wedding being planned at Riverrun.  That alone would make a 5-year wait for TWoW worth it.

[Longspear Ryk]

During feast and dance george played around with identity alot...

You have aegon/young griff, targaryon/blackfyre, arya/no one, griff/jon, reek/theon, jenye pool/arya, mance/bael, mance/rattleshirt, the aegon baby switch, the monster and mance baby switch

Makes sense for jenye westerling to be switched as well

[MtnLion]

I liked the idea, but there is a flaw.  Mama Westerling would definitely recognize her own daughter, and I am sure that she knows the penalty for crossing the Lannisters.

[dreamcatcher]

MtnLion, on 01 May 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

I liked the idea, but there is a flaw.  Mama Westerling would definitely recognize her own daughter, and I am sure that she knows the penalty for crossing the Lannisters.

If Jeyne's switched, it's obvious her mother is part of the plot. And she's not the first person to cross the Lannisters...

Someone should really ask GRRM about Jeyne's hips. I wonder what his reaction would be.

Edited by dreamcatcher, 01 May 2012 - 06:53 PM.

[Apple Martini]

MtnLion, on 01 May 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

I liked the idea, but there is a flaw.  Mama Westerling would definitely recognize her own daughter, and I am sure that she knows the penalty for crossing the Lannisters.

My theory is, Jeyne, Edmure, her sister and the Blackfish schemed together on the fly right before Riverrun surrendered. Jeyne escaped with the Blackfish without her mother knowing, and Sybell had no choice but to go along with it, pretending that Jeyne's sister was Jeyne. She can't tell Jaime that she lost Jeyne, so she has to go with the plot, unwillingly, because the alternative isn't an option. Jaime sees "Jeyne" with a dried sore and marks on her face and asks about them. Sybell says she resisted when they took her crown — but we never see this crown, and Jaime never receives it in surrender. My idea is, Sybell slapped Elenya around when she found out Jeyne had escaped, and those were the marks Jaime saw. As for "crossing the Lannisters" — Tywin is dead by then and the house is in disarray. If you're going to pull one over on them, now's the time.

Jeyne escaping with Brynden doesn't necessarily point to her being pregnant, but that makes the most sense. The only proof that Sybell gave Jeyne moon tea is what she told Jaime. I think it's possible for her to have hedged her bets — giving Jeyne a fertility potion when Robb was in power, with the knowledge that she could always help abort it if something happened. She never got the chance to abort the baby, but with Elenya there in Jeyne's place — who was assuredly not pregnant — Sybell could tell the moon tea lie and not get caught in it, for the foreseeable future. There's also the chance that Jeyne or someone else figured out that she was getting moon tea, and stopped taking the potion.

There are a few clues that something's up. The girls' hips don't match. Jeyne's sister isn't on the inventory when Jaime's there. He sees a girl with narrow hips who resembles Jeyne — it could easily be her sister. The girl covering her face and shredding her clothes could be ways to hide her identity from westermen who might recognize her, and hide an ill fit of clothes that weren't made for her, respectively. The Blackfish emphasized his vow to defend Robb's queen, so why would he abandon her?

The tricky part was always reconciling Sybell's scheming with the possibility of Jeyne being switched. But if you have the scenario I described above, there's no conflict.

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

Yeah the mother factor is the one thing that puzzles me. Especially since the book insinuates that her mother betrayed Robb somehow.....

Clearly she would know what her daughter looks like so the whole scene with Jaime wouldn't much sense unless she knew and was acting....

[Apple Martini]

ThePrinceOfSunspear, on 01 May 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Clearly she would know what her daughter looks like so the whole scene with Jaime wouldn't much sense unless she knew and was acting....

Like I said, I think that's the likeliest possibility. Jeyne slipped out with the Blackfish without her mother knowing, and Sybell is now forced to play along with the charade with Elenya, because the consequences otherwise would be severe. I think the evidence of abuse "Jeyne" has on her face is woefully overlooked — if Sybell took Jeyne's crown from her and she put up a fight, where's the crown now? Shouldn't Sybell give it to Jaime as a token of surrender, as is usually done in such cases? It's mentioned but Jaime doesn't follow up on it and we never see it. I think it's more likely that Sybell took out her anger on her other daughter when she found out Jeyne was missing, and that's what Jaime saw.

[dreamcatcher]

Apple Martini, on 01 May 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

Like I said, I think that's the likeliest possibility. Jeyne slipped out with the Blackfish without her mother knowing, and Sybell is now forced to play along with the charade with Elenya, because the consequences otherwise would be severe. I think the evidence of abuse "Jeyne" has on her face is woefully overlooked — if Sybell took Jeyne's crown from her and she put up a fight, where's the crown now? Shouldn't Sybell give it to Jaime as a token of surrender, as is usually done in such cases? It's mentioned but Jaime doesn't follow up on it and we never see it. I think it's more likely that Sybell took out her anger on her other daughter when she found out Jeyne was missing, and that's what Jaime saw.

The only thing that bothers me is that Elenya is 12 and Jaime describes her as "no more than 15 or 16"....

[Apple Martini]

dreamcatcher, on 01 May 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

The only thing that bothers me is that Elenya is 12 and Jaime describes her as "no more than 15 or 16"....

By then she would be 13. A taller girl who hadn't hit puberty yet could be mistaken for a 15- or 16-year-old with narrow hips. Tyrion thought Jon was like 12, for pete's sake. People see what they want.

[Blackfyre Bob]

Awesome explanation, Apple Martini.  Great reasoning for Elenya and Lady Selyne's parts in the plot. The bit about the moon tea was probably just a way to keep the trail cold for Jaime, so he wouldn't be suspicious.  Awesome.

[dreamcatcher]

Apple Martini, on 01 May 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

By then she would be 13. A taller girl who hadn't hit puberty yet could be mistaken for a 15- or 16-year-old with narrow hips. Tyrion thought Jon was like 12, for pete's sake. People see what they want.

Just encouraging a healthy debate - Elanya was described as a "little girl" in ASoS. I don't think she's tall... But I sure as hell hope that that was her and Jeyne's pregnant somewhere (or already given birth... I don't know the timeline).

[dtones520]

I had a similar theory to Apples, only difference is that Sybil Spicer was in on it from day one. But I like her theory better after reading it. There is just too many oddities in the whole situation with Jaime's encounter with Jeyne.

[Visual909]

it wouldn't be long since riverrun is taken near the end of AFFC and ADWD isn't much farther along than that when it ends only about a couple weeks i think. So unless she was far along which she wasn't then if she has run and was pregnant she has a while,

[Apple Martini]

Visual909, on 01 May 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

it wouldn't be long since riverrun is taken near the end of AFFC and ADWD isn't much farther along than that when it ends only about a couple weeks i think. So unless she was far along which she wasn't then if she has run and was pregnant she has a while,

For context, Roslin Frey and Edmure Tully conceived their baby on the day of the Red Wedding, and she has yet to give birth. So if Robb and Jeyne conceived a baby right before he went to his death, it's not out of the question to assume that Jeyne simply hasn't given birth yet.

Edited by Apple Martini, 01 May 2012 - 08:50 PM.

[Visual909]

ya so at best if she gave birth it would be in the 7th book.

[dreamcatcher]

I don't think so, I think book 6 will span more than just a couple of months. We may meet the baby in book 7, though.

[dtones520]

Visual909, on 01 May 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

ya so at best if she gave birth it would be in the 7th book.

More like early to mid 6th book. Robb died at the end of year 299 after Aegons landing. Based on the fact that book one starts in early 298, we're probably close to the end of year 300. So, if Jeyne got Pregnant in 299, she will probably have the baby soon or already has.

[Lord Damian]

The crown was in the Frey camp on "The Queen of Whores" I think, I coud be wrong though. I agree with Apple Martini though. The Blackfish owing nothing to Queen Jeyne's mother, only to Queen Jeyne herself, probably told her after Edmure advised of surrender, we have to get you out of here now, can you trust anyone? Jeyne and her sister are probably close and she was the only person she could think of and there you are. Well said Apple.

[IKE]

That was Robb's crown, yes?  Bronze and iron sword crown..  I'm guessing the crown referred to by Sybil is the one the queen would wear..?  The queen wears one crown of sorts?  IDK

Robbs was with him at the Red Wedding.  Which is why it's now with the Freys outside Riverrun.