107 replies to this topic

[Leuf]

Faint, on 23 May 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

I worry about the long-term ratings simply because they have to be high enough for HBO to justify blowing $75 million or more a season on the show. It would be really difficult, if not impossible, to maintain a loyal audience of around 4 million through a decade of seasons. Television show viewership figures tend to resemble a bell curve over the lifespan of any one show where there is a steady increase to a high point followed by a steady decrease (and that's if the show is especially successful). Sometimes there is even a sharp rise or a sharp fall but, either way, it is something beyond rare for a show to have a relatively stable audience through the majority of its run (Seinfeld and Friends come to mind). That being the case, I think Game of Thrones has to build to an audience of at least 7 or 8 million around its midpoint for there to be any shot that the entire series gets made.

I think there is a difference between GoT and the typical series in that it's based on a book series with a (sort of) definitive ending being headed towards.  Your typical series has run out of its best ideas or drawn out the romantic tension between the lead characters as far as it will go after 3-4 seasons.  If it was popular enough it gets dragged out to a slow death after that.  It's sort of the difference between movie series like LOTR and Harry Potter versus a series of sequels after a successful movie.

The only trouble is the last two books haven't had as good of word of mouth, and the way they are written they can certainly play on tv looking just like a series that is just dragging things out.  It would really help the show if GRRM can get TWOW out by the end of season 4, and to have the book move the series substantially towards an ending.

[Castel]

Faint, on 23 May 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

I just used The Sopranos as an example. I'm not under the delusion that Game of Thrones will ever reach that level of mainstream success. That said, I do hope it might eventually reach The Walking Dead territory and get into the 7.0 to 8.0 range. I think it necessary it does so in order to complete the entire book series given the bell curve like trend of television show ratings I mentioned above. As it is, I'm somewhat in disbelief that twice as many people tune into a zombie show than Game of Thrones.* * I realize HBO has roughly 28 million subscribers to AMC's +95 million but the fact still shocks me.

We've had forty years of zombies on the screen, while the only really successful fantasy series I can think of is the Lord of the Rings. Everything else is campy and light and doesn't really represent Game of Thrones (think of the scifi landscape  and things  like Stargate vs Battlestar and how people react to it, i.e. much the same way as they do to GoT). I'm not surprised that people can immediately get a zombie show while they have to slowly get into or get convinced to get into something like Game of Thrones.

It doesn't help that GoT deals with themes that people find very uncomfortable (although the show is tamer in this regard, with the incest being the  major offender). Shows like Walking Dead are rarely uncomfortable the way GoT is, they seem to have some deep discussions about issues but they quickly fall in line.

[tripleseq]

Love the show, disappointed with the season.  "Where are my dragons?!".. really, is that all we get from Dany now, aside from the pleady puppy dog eye brows that are so totally out of character for the queen of dragons that its like the writers have no idea what character they're trying to portray.

[J_Crews]

tripleseq, on 23 May 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

Love the show, disappointed with the season. "Where are my dragons?!".. really, is that all we get from Dany now, aside from the pleady puppy dog eye brows that are so totally out of character for the queen of dragons that its like the writers have no idea what character they're trying to portray.

I think the basis of the problem is that they've had to create a ton of new material for Dany this season; Emilia Clarke is a fan-favorite, yet the writers were faced with a situation where they were trying to adapt a book, in which Dany barely appears at all and pretty much does nothing of consequence until the House of the Undying.  Yet, they can't just keep her off-screen.  Same thing with Robb.

[Castel]

J.S. Crews, on 24 May 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

I think the basis of the problem is that they've had to create a ton of new material for Dany this season; Emilia Clarke is a fan-favorite, yet the writers were faced with a situation where they were trying to adapt a book, in which Dany barely appears at all and pretty much does nothing of consequence until the House of the Undying.  Yet, they can't just keep her off-screen.  Same thing with Robb.

And they can't accelerate her storyline because then they'd less material for the next two seasons. Game of thrones is surprisingly hard to adapt sometimes, with the way some characters' plots slow down or fade, TV audiences are less forgiving about that sort of thing.

[Jussi]

Leuf, on 23 May 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

The only trouble is the last two books haven't had as good of word of mouth,

Really? Martin wrote in August 2011:

Quote

My thanks go out to all of you, my fans and readers, for your enthusiasm and support. It's in no small part thanks to you spreading the word that DANCE has achieved these record sales. There's no substitute for good word of mouth.

[J_Crews]

Castel, on 24 May 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

And they can't accelerate her storyline because then they'd less material for the next two seasons. Game of thrones is surprisingly hard to adapt sometimes, with the way some characters' plots slow down or fade, TV audiences are less forgiving about that sort of thing.

Plus, accelerating her storyline means adding new locations, actors, etc., all of which costs $$$ out of an already admirably-stretched budget.

[Currawong]

J.S. Crews, on 24 May 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

I think the basis of the problem is that they've had to create a ton of new material for Dany this season; Emilia Clarke is a fan-favorite, yet the writers were faced with a situation where they were trying to adapt a book, in which Dany barely appears at all and pretty much does nothing of consequence until the House of the Undying.  Yet, they can't just keep her off-screen.  Same thing with Robb.

Castel, on 24 May 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

And they can't accelerate her storyline because then they'd less material for the next two seasons. Game of thrones is surprisingly hard to adapt sometimes, with the way some characters' plots slow down or fade, TV audiences are less forgiving about that sort of thing.

Exactly.  And what is fascinating in detail and description on the written page often makes extremely dull or even impossible viewing.  Which is why we are going to get even more changes from the books from now on, because the writers have to focus on telling the overall story in a way that makes sense for viewers over the course of a number of seasons.  They have already made it clear that this is their objective, and that they are basically going to 're-combine" AFFC and ADWD, so as to get continuity of the parallel timelines and ensure we don't 'lose' key stars for a year or more.   It's not going to please many of the most ardent book fans (I am already prepared for the screams of outrage at every minor tweak or addition!), but GRRM himself appreciates the difficulties of adpating books for the screen.

[boojam]

J.S. Crews, on 24 May 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

I think the basis of the problem is that they've had to create a ton of new material for Dany this season; Emilia Clarke is a fan-favorite, yet the writers were faced with a situation where they were trying to adapt a book, in which Dany barely appears at all and pretty much does nothing of consequence until the House of the Undying.  Yet, they can't just keep her off-screen.  Same thing with Robb.

It's really true. Our prime moderators on this site, who write the best and most insightful reviews of the adaption of ASoIaF complain that George's mise en scène at Qarth is not being captured by D and D. ...
I think the the producers of this show know that ... but they would have to hire a teleplay writer and a director who could realize that , who would be?
Terrence Malick does his own thing so I don't think he be a possibility, Jean Cocteau is long dead, Christopher Nolan comes to mind. If someone could be found would the bulk of HBO audience want something just atmospheric ... I love to see it, but seems like box office poison.

It's odd, Emilia Clarke showed she had the range last year, and in the first two episodes, so brief, she projected a quietly confident and commanding manner. I liked the scene where she tells the three blood-riders in Dothraki to make the search. Episode 3 wasn't so bad. But then why she was directed to be so repetitious and kind of whiny I don't understand. It seems they didn't try different ways to deliver her lines, understated cool authority would have been better.

I don't agree with the producers about over using the dragons. Lord! they have had I think about less than 60 seconds of screen time. A scene of her pointing out their names would have been a nice touch, with the three on screen. I am not sure what happens in E10 this year, 30 min. of VFX dragons?

Edited by boojam, 25 May 2012 - 06:13 AM.

[Castel]

Quote

It's odd, Emilia Clarke showed she had the range last year, and in the first two episodes, so brief, she projected a quietly confident and commanding manner. I liked the scene where she tells the three blood-riders in Dothraki to make the search. Episode 3 wasn't so bad. But then why she was directed to be so repetitious and kind of whiny I don't understand. It seems they didn't try different ways to deliver her lines, understated cool authority would have been better.

That's actually one of the things I liked about this season; the pointing out that Dany has nothing except a bunch of small dragons and the belief that she is right, unfortunately they did the same scene 4 times, when the one time with the fat man would have been best.

[Padraig]

boojam, on 25 May 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

It's really true. Our prime moderators on this site, who write the best and most insightful reviews of the adaption of ASoIaF complain that George's mise en scène at Qarth is not being captured by D and D.

Some of that is simply budget.  And maybe unrealistic expectations.

And I really don't see why people expect to see a lot of dragons.  Doing what exactly?  Far better to save money/time and focus on actual plot.

I also thought Dany was a lot more subdued in the last episode.  It could be that is the arc that she is on.  Realising that she can't get anything by demanding it.

[Ran]

I don't think shows like Twin Peaks had massive budgets, and while David Lynch directed a couple of episodes, he didn't handle every single episode, and some of the none-Lynch episodes were remarkably surreal.

The strange dissonance of Daenerys's experiences in Qarth are something that's been pulled off on TV plenty of times in other contexts. Why not on the show? Perhaps they were concerned about tone, perhaps they simply couldn't imagine how to scale it to the budget (though I don't see why -- I literally wouldn't expect to see any more of Qarth than we saw in the show), perhaps they weren't up to the challenge of writing it.

But I'm pretty sure it was doable on their budget if they thought it through. The thing is, more than anything, I think they're opposed to the "weird" aspects of the story, the stuff that veers from realism and grittiness (strange, metaphorical visions of the future and past? Weird. Shadow baby assassin? Gritty!), and yet in literary terms they're deliberate and important elements of the story as Martin imagined it. Turning Qarth into another realm where politics and violence rules may maintain the same tonal texture as everything else... but when you eat a meal and every dish tastes the same, that's generally not considered a good meal.

That's my view of it, anyways. If they wanted to make Xaro's and Pyat's coup compelling problems for Dany, they needed to do a lot more with Qarth than they did. But instead they left the sketch of it that perfectly fit GRRM's aims of presenting Qarth as an almost otherworldly place, and then grafted on stuff it was never meant to support. That's an error on their part, I think.

Edited by Ran, 25 May 2012 - 04:16 PM.

[boojam]

Ran, on 25 May 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

That's my view of it, anyways. If they wanted to make Xaro's and Pyat's coup compelling problems for Dany, they needed to do a lot more with Qarth than they did. But instead they left the sketch of it that perfectly fit GRRM's aims of presenting Qarth as an almost otherworldly place, and then grafted on stuff it was never meant to support. That's an error on their part, I think.

It's among about a dozen questions I like to see posed to David Benioff and
D. B. Weiss. Maybe they will grant someone an interview about season two.
My perception is they felt their time and energy went into trying condense an enormous amount of narrative material into one season and just ran out of time when it came to Dany's story.
It may have to have been that way if HBO told them "all we can guarantee" is a season 2 and nothing beyond that. They worked hard to get a shot at season 3 ... which happened.
I would like to know their approach to making Storm into two seasons, which is what they have said they are going to do, with no guarantee of a season 4.
Benioff and Weiss have my praise for best effort. I have seen some really fine ideas end in wrecks on HBO.
As I remember George himself , when approached, was afraid that ROME would be a victim of the adaptation of his story ... that did not happen... , alas ROME became of victim of a rough business.

Edited by boojam, 25 May 2012 - 04:44 PM.

[Padraig]

boojam, on 25 May 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

It may have to have been that way if HBO told them "all we can guarantee" is a season 2 and nothing beyond that.  

I don't understand how the lack of surety regarding S3 would make any difference to the Qarth storyline?  At the end of S2, I imagine Dany is going to end up in a similar position as she was at the end of aCoK.  Whatever about the changes in between.

D&D have even talked about their approach to each season.  They will go forward with their vision for the full series and if the series ends before its time then the series ends before its time.   They are not going to create an ending where an ending doesn't exist.

Ran, on 25 May 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

I don't think shows like Twin Peaks had massive budgets, and while David Lynch directed a couple of episodes, he didn't handle every single episode, and some of the none-Lynch episodes were remarkably surreal.

.
It's probably a failure of imagination on my part but I can't envision a surreal low-budget Qarth.  They could do what was done in the books but that's still a rather grand vision, which would impact on budget.  Twin Peaks doesn't help me because its hugely different from GoT.

Time is always a problem of course and they aren't able to get around that.  Anyhow, I'm generally relaxed about the changes they have made.  I always knew that her section in aCoK would be very difficult to adapt, so I wasn't surprised when they increased the drama.  The only part that bugs me (and most things that bug me are logic issues) is why they don't just bring Dany to the House of Undying if they want her there.  Not like she has an army protecting her.

But then...maybe they liked that surreal touch.  Where everything is a little off-kilter.

Edited by Wayne Payne, 25 May 2012 - 05:56 PM.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Ran, on 25 May 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

The thing is, more than anything, I think they're opposed to the "weird" aspects of the story, the stuff that veers from realism and grittiness (strange, metaphorical visions of the future and past? Weird. Shadow baby assassin? Gritty!),

So much for Dany’s strange, metaphorical visions of the future and the past at the House of the Undying.

Damn!  I’d really been looking forward to those, even more than anything else this season.  I knew that they’d do  flaming loud explosions just fine for the Battle of the Blackwater, but I couldn’t wait  to see the almost limitless possibilities presented by the House of the Undying.

Awfully hard to understand why  they would spare no expense on the superfreaky Smokebaby Baratheon bastard only to turn around and strip out the strange and metaphorical elements from Dany’s plot-zenith this season. It’s just people-shots for goodness’ sake. They can’t use the “CGI is too expensive” dodge this time around.

[Kaldaur]

We don't know that we won't get a crazy HofU scene. We haven't watched it yet. I think many of us are holding out for the visions while she is there, but who knows. Two days to go!

[boojam]

Wayne Payne, on 25 May 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

I don't understand how the lack of surety regarding S3 would make any difference to the Qarth storyline?  At the end of S2, I imagine Dany is going to end up in a similar position as she was at the end of aCoK.  Whatever about the changes in between.

CoK has 70 chapters, 5 of which are Dany's , D&D get the go ahead for season 2 April 17th or was it the 19th, 2011? Now I know they had done some pre prep but filming began began on 25 July 2011.
My impression is that D&D have total artistic control, so that means supervising not only casting, new locations, I think they can leave production to a really talented crew, then 65 chapters, more or less into 10 teleplays which they don't have to write all of, but have to filter.
That and more is all done in two months.
They remain the two and only 'the buck stops here' producers.
So whoever thinks they could have done a better job should step forward and say how they would have done it.

Edited by boojam, 25 May 2012 - 08:51 PM.

[boojam]

CrypticWeirwood, on 25 May 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

Awfully hard to understand why  they would spare no expense on the superfreaky Smokebaby Baratheon bastard only to turn around and strip out the strange and metaphorical elements from Dany’s plot-zenith this season. It’s just people-shots for goodness’ sake. They can’t use the “CGI is too expensive” dodge this time around.

I am a little puzzled about CGI expenses too, I am not in the biz, but my guess is that in the last 10 years expenses for CGI VFX have come down.
I would like to see a summary such as a Blue Bolt did last year for the first season.
I noticed this last episode some architectural CGI at KL , maybe they have been doing that all along.
Hard to believe they shot most of the whole wad of CGI on E9 (Blackwater) and E10 , which I guess will be HotUD.

Edited by boojam, 25 May 2012 - 08:58 PM.

[Padraig]

boojam, on 25 May 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

I noticed this last episode some architectural CGI at KL , maybe they have been doing that all along.

I believe so.  Harrenhal.  Any major campsites.  Pyke.  Dragonstone.  Qarth.  The wolves.  The dragons.  Except for the wolves and the dragons, the CGI might not be hugely obvious but they are all over the place.

A good way to interpret the cost of CGI is to wonder how many other TV shows have a lot of it.  They don't.

[Law Lord]

Does anyone know when the ratings for this weeks episode 9, Blackwater, will be released? Im curious to see if the ratings will rise after this episode.