74 replies to this topic

[armidil0]

Darth Rivers, on 25 May 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

No. No way something mediaval can find the resources to build and maintain a city of considerable proportions in the tundra, let alone the arctic deserts of snow and ice. That said, GRRM might do an ass-pull and make such a city exist.

Its fantasy, they could do something like the Kodan of GW2 universe.

[himalyanjon]

miguel sanchez, on 25 May 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

I always felt as though the others weren't mindless, just relatively stupid, evil and single minded. Like some kind of ice demons. Now, I don't know about a city, maybe one without an economy, or law enforcement, or complex social structures. But what is the extent of their intelligence and organisation? That's the question, and one we'll have to wait to find out about. I think some people get a little too carried away about the subject tbh. At any rate, I think some people are incorrectly looking at the problems of the others having a city in the far far north. The cold wouldn't matter, nor the lack of food and other resources, because you're thinking of things that humans need. The whitewalkers are completely different, their 'city' would not resemble anything to that of a human city, their needs are clearly different. Heck, they can only exist in the extremely cold temperatures. If they are going to have a civilisation, that'll be the place to have it. I imagine they live in huge underground ice caverns, with hundreds of catacombs and tunnels and whatnot, riding around on friggin' spiders. Or who knows!? They could be spawning out of a magic ice door on the north pole for all we know of the others yet.

spot on i dont think they will be much different to org socitey  in LOTR triology. Except the fact they kill in groups they are toally anti human. If they fight in army than surely they camp together and maybe exist in a socitey together.

[himalyanjon]

armidil0, on 25 May 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Its fantasy, they could do something like the Kodan of GW2 universe.

Kodan of GW2 universe???? whats that dude

[butterbumps!]

himalyanjon, on 25 May 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

still no takers for my grand theory srsly guys others are social beings they attack in groups and obviously reproduce (in some way). so....

Sorry-  what's your grand theory?   That the Others, being humanoid and social creatures ought to have formed some kind of civilization, the expression of which is a city?

[himalyanjon]

butterbumps!, on 25 May 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

Sorry-  what's your grand theory?   That the Others, being humanoid and social creatures ought to have formed some kind of civilization, the expression of which is a city?

yeah i thought it was something

nah i think there is a great city up north someone (jon, bran) will be taken there alive( or undead or warg) and there will be a major part of story there.

[butterbumps!]

himalyanjon, on 25 May 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

yeah i thought it was something

nah i think there is a great city up north someone (jon, bran) will be taken there alive( or undead or warg) and there will be a major part of story there.

Like a city made by the Others?    I agree there's something up there of importance, but I'm not sure it's a city.  Perhaps something like Stonehenge in the sense of being a significant monument or ruins or something.  I thought the Fist of the First Men might be one such "sacred" place.

In terms of something more city-like, we're told of the story of Gendel and Gorne (Wildling brothers) who made a network of caves now populated with "hungry children."  We have little go on with that, though.

Edited by butterbumps!, 25 May 2012 - 10:52 AM.

[himalyanjon]

butterbumps!, on 25 May 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

Like a city made by the Others? I agree there's something up there of importance, but I'm not sure it's a city.  Perhaps something like Stonehenge in the sense of being a significant monument or ruins or something.  I thought the Fist of the First Men might be one such "sacred" place.

In terms of something more city-like, we're told of the story of Gendel and Gorne (Wildling brothers) who made a network of caves now populated with "hungry children."  We have little go on with that, though.

Prologue others hunt in groups
others have waged a war hence would need a army
army would need some disciplne

they have some social sense

a city, caves sometype civilsation is there and that is where GRRM is taking us I"m pretty confident about it.

[armidil0]

himalyanjon, on 25 May 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

Kodan of GW2 universe???? whats that dude

The Kodan are a race in guildwars lore. They basically live in/on icebergs and such way up friggin north. The others could do the same, or they could do something similar and have everything made out of ice or carved into giant sheets of ice.

I personally like the idea of an Other society. Where would all the caves come from? I feel like Westeros is going hollow. Also wouldn't caves be warmer than just chilling out on the surface where the snow is? I like the city idea. Maybe Benjen(?) can come back and be all "OMFG There's a city up there guys!"

[butterbumps!]

I don't disagree with your characterization of the White Walkers, and agree that it points to a kind of civilizing presence.  I'm not negating that there could be a city, just that  a "city" is not how I'd describe it.  I doubt that the WW are engaged in the higher learning, medical advances, and especially, trade, law and ordinances that characterize "citiness."   I think it's possible there's something architectural beyond the wall as a kind of sacred or militaristic gathering place.  Maybe even like the Death Star (not sure I believe this, but just throwing it out there).

Also, keep in mind that there's evidence the WW might be able to communicate without having to be in the same location bodily.  Cities form out of need of close physical proximity for goods and services.  It seems possible that the WW are able to communicate remotely, especially given that they seem able to raise wights at pretty good distances, which might negate the need for city-like dwelling.

[jblair]

Darth Rivers, on 25 May 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

No. No way something mediaval can find the resources to build and maintain a city of considerable proportions in the tundra, let alone the arctic deserts of snow and ice.

Only because humans couldn't handle the cold or lack of food without better technology. Others appear to have neither of those weaknesses. Plus (based on their swords) they can obviously forge/conjure some rather interesting things using technology/magic unknown to humans. I'd say a city is certainly in the realm of possibility.

[himalyanjon]

armidil0, on 25 May 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

The Kodan are a race in guildwars lore. They basically live in/on icebergs and such way up friggin north. The others could do the same, or they could do something similar and have everything made out of ice or carved into giant sheets of ice. I personally like the idea of an Other society. Where would all the caves come from? I feel like Westeros is going hollow. Also wouldn't caves be warmer than just chilling out on the surface where the snow is? I like the city idea. Maybe Benjen(?) can come back and be all "OMFG There's a city up there guys!"

I'm sure someone will come and tell stannis winterfell "OMFG There's a city up there guys!"just at the end of WoW

but benjen i think there are better candidates
jon
bran
davos
ghost

[Wun Wun Greyjoy]

miguel sanchez, on 25 May 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

I always felt as though the others weren't mindless, just relatively stupid, evil and single minded. Like some kind of ice demons. Now, I don't know about a city, maybe one without an economy, or law enforcement, or complex social structures. But what is the extent of their intelligence and organisation? That's the question, and one we'll have to wait to find out about. I think some people get a little too carried away about the subject tbh. At any rate, I think some people are incorrectly looking at the problems of the others having a city in the far far north. The cold wouldn't matter, nor the lack of food and other resources, because you're thinking of things that humans need. The whitewalkers are completely different, their 'city' would not resemble anything to that of a human city, their needs are clearly different. Heck, they can only exist in the extremely cold temperatures. If they are going to have a civilisation, that'll be the place to have it. I imagine they live in huge underground ice caverns, with hundreds of catacombs and tunnels and whatnot, riding around on friggin' spiders. Or who knows!? They could be spawning out of a magic ice door on the north pole for all we know of the others yet.

Craster has likely supplied them with a good number of sons.

[armidil0]

I said Benjen bcuz atm he is MIA and presumed dead. But you also have to take in consideration that, he

1) Survived for so long somehow
2) Is not coldhands
3) Didn't abandon his watch, and for some reason decided going that far north was the right action.

Personally I think Benjen has a better chance of being the one who tells of a city because he's already somewhere over the wall. Jon would have to come back to life, then leave and comeback again, Davos has to leave from Skagos or come back to Stannis then leave and come back, ghost (with or w/out Jon warged) would have to get past the wall then come back. Bran is a good candidate, but how would he see them without any form of tree, or animal to warg into that far north? He could warg into an Other, but then they aren't so frightening anymore.

I say Benjen because all he has to do is show up, so it wouldn't be that difficult to write him in easily.

Edited by armidil0, 25 May 2012 - 11:19 AM.

[himalyanjon]

Wun Wun, on 25 May 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

Craster has likely supplied them with a good number of sons.

for a army of undead. how others are born we don't know yet.

[himalyanjon]

armidil0, on 25 May 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

I said Benjen bcuz atm he is MIA and presumed dead. But you also have to take in consideration that, he

1) Survived for so long somehow
2) Is not coldhands
3) Didn't abandon his watch, and for some reason decided going that far north was the right action.

Personally I think Benjen has a better chance of being the one who tells of a city because he's already somewhere over the wall. Jon would have to come back to life, then leave and comeback again, Davos has to leave from Skagos or come back to Stannis then leave and come back, ghost (with or w/out Jon warged) would have to get past the wall then come back. Bran is a good candidate, but how would he see them without any form of tree, or animal to warg into that far north? He could warg into an Other, but then they aren't so frightening anymore.

I say Benjen because all he has to do is show up, so it wouldn't be that difficult to write him in easily.

yup you have very strong points but my scepticism stems from 1 point others can survive the north they like it there, but can benjen hes there since GoT if he was there he has escaped already and is with wildlings... no?

[mynci]

GRRM has said that WoW will go into the lands of always winter, and he's also said that he wont be bringing in any new POV characters... So if we're going to find out what's there then one of the existing POVs has to go there in the next book.

I think Jon's gonna go there in WoW.

[himalyanjon]

mynci, on 25 May 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

GRRM has said that WoW will go into the lands of always winter, and he's also said that he wont be bringing in any new POV characters... So if we're going to find out what's there then one of the existing POVs has to go there in the next book.

I think Jon's gonna go there in WoW.

surely but as jon ghost or a warg

[armidil0]

Davos and Jon couldn't survive up there without some help. Jon is a teenager (whose survival skills haven't been tested yet), and Davos is a seaman. Ghost could survive the cold I guess but there might not be a lot of game to hunt that far north. We don't know if the Others eat though, so the whole "no game to hunt for food up there" argument is speculation based of an assumption of intense cold(liness?). Benjen and Bran are my top candidates, and I prefer Benjen for a lot of points I made already.

It is true, Benjen could be with Wildlings. I don't see that as a negative, but a positive. It means he had help surviving the whole time, and makes it more reasonable. Maybe they could have helped him get there, or atleast gave him food if he was dying while coming back. He could also be south of the wall with some of the Wildlings but who knows. That's really unlikely on many levels.

I'm sticking with Benjen knocking on the Wall and asking for some hot cocoa while he tells them a story of an Other city(or other form of civilization).

Edited by armidil0, 25 May 2012 - 11:39 AM.

[himalyanjon]

armidil0, on 25 May 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I'm sticking with Benjen knocking on the Wall and asking for some hot cocoa while he tells them a story of an Other city(or other form of civilization).

Benjen is mentioned too many times not to appear again.I think Jon will be taken a prisoner and in the cold cells of otherland( ) he will find a wight benjen saying " yo jhonny boy"

[armidil0]

I wonder what it would be like to be an Other's prisoner. Probably very cold. Or really nice. "For your horrendous acts you will sit next to this fire for 10 minutes!"

Also for Benjen being a wight, would he have his mind intact still then? Hmm.