64 replies to this topic

[Prince of Dragonstone]

I think un-Jon will be more like the resurrected Beric Dondarrion than un-Cat. The reason why un-Cat is the way she is was because she was dead for a several weeks before she was found by the Brotherhood. I think if Melisandre re-animates Jon quickly then he'll still retain his mind, personality and human qualities. I just think Melisandre is going to have some powerful connection with Jon now. They'll be linked to each other.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

Golden lady, on 01 May 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

You mean that her betrayal will be killing him ?

Or indirectly setting it up, or not coming to his aid in a time of need. If she really does come to realize that Jon = AAR then I think she will see Stannis as "in the way".

Or she might go to the grave swearing Stannis is AAR. Who knows?

[Lord Ben]

I think he'll take a while to heal and while doing that Ghost will visit Always Winter and find the Ice Fey kingdom.

[Damon_Tor]

Apple Martini, on 01 May 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

I don't want Jon to "get out of" the Night's Watch on a technicality. It feels cheap.

It will have to be one of many factors, one of which is the fact that some faction of the Watch, including two of his lieutenants, conspired to murder him.  Another factor will be the fact that the Watch will either be in two factions or altogether destroyed along with the wall itself.

Strong suspicion Jon's resurrection will not be immediate: Melissandra will revive his body, but Jon's soul will be in Ghost for a while, and so his body will lie there comatose until Bran can help him find his way back (pure speculation: this the same way the Three Eyed Crow helped Brenden find his way back into his body, which had been resurrected as a wight.)  Thus, Jon's resurrection is not purely the work of Melissandra, it's also a rite of passage for Bran, which is better for the development of all three characters.

This time will also allow the Night's Watch to move on, and begin a civil war between the Wildling Watchers and the Kneeler Watchers.  We'll see two Lord Commanders during this period: my money is on Rayder and Thorne, respectively, but that's more speculation.  This war may result in the destruction of the wall altogether, at which point the Watch will likely dissolve entirely.

IMO, he'll only properly come back to life at the end of book 6, when Bran can finally guide his spirit back to his sleeping body.  This will help to keep the rebirth from feeling "cheap" and the Watch fracturing into two largely unlikeable factions will reinforce Jon's decision to leave them behind.  If the watch fades altogether with the collapse of the wall, this sets up the very dire prospect of the White Walkers spreading across Westeros, setting up book seven as an apocalyptic battle for the survival of the human race.

[Golden Lady]

Damon_Tor, on 01 May 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

Strong suspicion Jon's resurrection will not be immediate: Melissandra will revive his body, but Jon's soul will be in Ghost for a while, and so his body will lie there comatose until Bran can help him find his way back (pure speculation: this the same way the Three Eyed Crow helped Brenden find his way back into his body, which had been resurrected as a wight.)  Thus, Jon's resurrection is not purely the work of Melissandra, it's also a rite of passage for Bran, which is better for the development of all three characters.

I like your idea a lot.

[Damon_Tor]

Blue-eyed Onion, on 01 May 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

Catelyn used to be a POV character before becoming un-Catelyn, will the same happen to un-Jon? I get this feeling that if Jon is truly meant to be the AAR or if his 'death' is supposed to be a release from the nightwatch vows allowing him to claim AAR status or even kingly status (if R+L=J is true and becomes known), then given the no-king POV and no-'un' POV precedents then we may have read the last Jon POV for good (regardless of whether he's truly dead or not)....

I think Jon's resurrection will be different, basically a culmination of several resurrection themes we've seen already play out.  It combines The Red Priest resurrections with the Soul-in-Warg concept that was introduced to us.  It will even have shades of Drogo, in that his body will lie comatose, alive but with no soul.  If my theory holds true, even Coldhands will be relevant, a warg that manages to effectively re-warg into his own body after it's resurrected by other means, with the help of a powerful greenseer.

All this will make Jon's rebirth feel less like "just another resurrection" and more like the culmination of all the resurrections we've seen so far.  The end result will be a more complete and proper return to life than anything we've seen, perhaps including his return as a PoV character.

[Yeade]

Well, I gotta admit I don't much care for this theory that Jon's possible death and resurrection can exempt him from his NW vows. Not only do I feel it'd be OOC for Jon to exploit such a technical loophole for his personal benefit alone but, considering other potential story developments like Robb's will naming Jon heir to his kingdom and the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy proving R+L=J involves a legitimate marriage, Jon has a few too many crowns he can claim to be free of the NW's restrictions in this regard.

If, say, Dany offers her presumed nephew her hand and, more importantly, command over her armies and dragons, why the hell would a Jon who's no longer bound to the NW waste any time at all in deliberation before agreeing? Similarly, this hypothetical Jon can appoint himself Rickon's regent, the addition of his military experience to Rickon's claim on Winterfell pretty much rendering Littlefinger's plans for Sansa moot. Now, I happen to think Jon's doomed to be de facto King in the North and will eventually end up chained to the Iron Throne for lack of better options. I just see no reason to make things easier on Jon by granting him absolution for oathbreaking. He ought to have no doubt in his heart by the end of the series that he's an oathbreaker, even though I suspect nobody else in Westeros will give a damn. Truly, Jaime and he have a lot in common...

On another note, assuming R+L=J is true, I figure dramatic imperative demands that Jon have a POV. I really can't overstate what a terrible storytelling choice it'd be to resolve a mystery that's spanned five, going on six, thousand-page novels without allowing the readers to be privy to the thoughts and feelings of the character who's obviously going to be impacted the most.

That the contenders in the War of the Five Kings don't have POVs isn't a particularly good rationale to dismiss Jon or, for that matter, Dany as future rulers, IMO. If anything, the fact that Jon and Dany--along with maybe Tyrion and Bran--have both power and perspective is an argument for them being the main characters of ASOIAF. Most everybody else has chapters primarily to observe key people and events. Whereas Jon's storyline can be viewed as a long tutorial in leadership, lol.

Edited by Yeade, 02 May 2012 - 01:14 AM.

[theguyfromtheVale]

Ï actually think that yes, Jon will technically be free from his vows if resurrected. I can also see him being thrown out of the NW if the Bowen Marsh fraction wins. However, Jon himself, even if not bound by these vows any more, will still consider he fight against the Others as his main task, and while perhaps considering himself freed from the restrictions (no crowns, no lands, no titles, no marriage) he might still try to lead the fight against them.

[The Butler of Tarth]

I have no doubt that Jon will get resurrected but even after that he won't be able to find a place for himself outside the Watch.

Would any of the northern lords follow a Nightswatch deserter? Any southerners?  How many people will buy  "Guys, I totally served until my death and was resurrected!" as an explanation?

[David Selig]

See, it makes no sense to me to be free from the oath because of this. If he gets resurrected and is accepted as the same person, all his responsibilities should be the same. Getting away on a technicality which is pretty ambiguous to begin with (the oath ends with "I pledge my life and honor to the Night’s Watch, for this night and all the nights to come") really doesn't seem like something which would be accepted by most people in Westeros, and Jon himself.

[Ser Wun Wun]

Because of his warging abilities Jon will not have "died" like Beric or UnCat, so I expect him to retain the vigor that those two seemed to lose when brought back.  But he still won't be as he was before, and not just because of the trauma of being murdered by "brothers".  The Varamyr prologue mentions that during the Second Life a warg's memories start to fade, and he becomes a little less man, and a little more beast as time passes.  So I'm fully expecting to see a more aggressive, morally grey version of Jon when he comes back.

With that in mind, I think he will simply make the hard choice to leave the NW, regardless of whether or not people think he is "free" to do so.  He's obviously going to become a leader of some kind (a king, a regent, a lord or whatever), and the people who support him will contend that his death ended his vow, and his enemies will of course call him oathbreaker and turncloak.

[ShadowRaven]

Apple Martini, on 01 May 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

I'm honestly not keen on Jon getting out of it on a technicality, unless, say, Melisandre or Bloodraven/Bran were behind the attack and orchestrated it specifically so Jon could be free to do ... other things. "Other things" being something more important than just being a lord.

I hope to hell he doesn't marry Dany. Just ... no.

Yes, that makes total sense. I mean, Bran would totally agree to murder his brother because of a smart idea of BR. BR wouldn't do that either I think; he might lose Bran's trust.

Lol?

[ARYa_Nym]

Ser Wun Wun, on 02 May 2012 - 03:45 AM, said:

Because of his warging abilities Jon will not have "died" like Beric or UnCat, so I expect him to retain the vigor that those two seemed to lose when brought back.  But he still won't be as he was before, and not just because of the trauma of being murdered by "brothers".  The Varamyr prologue mentions that during the Second Life a warg's memories start to fade, and he becomes a little less man, and a little more beast as time passes.  So I'm fully expecting to see a more aggressive, morally grey version of Jon when he comes back.

With that in mind, I think he will simply make the hard choice to leave the NW, regardless of whether or not people think he is "free" to do so.  He's obviously going to become a leader of some kind (a king, a regent, a lord or whatever), and the people who support him will contend that his death ended his vow, and his enemies will of course call him oathbreaker and turncloak.

IA. The longer he stays inside Ghost the less he should be like himself.

I expect him to change anyways because plenty of people change after traumatic events.

Anyways, I'm of the mindset that the NW will fail. In the show Cersei says something like I'm sure that the NW will keep us safe from the Others and I basically expect the opposite. & Patchface may not have only been referring to Jon is his ramblings.

If the Others get as far as the Trident I think it's because the NW failed to subdue them. Maybe most of them were turned into wights.

[Jayce]

Lord Ben, on 01 May 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

I think he'll take a while to heal and while doing that Ghost will visit Always Winter and find the Ice Fey kingdom.

Or the crypts in Winterfell (maybe biting Ramsay's throat out) and find a certain truth?

[Jayce]

Apple Martini, on 01 May 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

Someone, I can't remember who, had the batshit-crazy-but-also-weirdly-awesome-idea that they'd try to burn Jon's "corpse" and he'd walk out of the fire, alive. Not going to happen and it'd be another confusing case of a Targ dodging fire (which I despise), but it has its own weird charm.

This sounds great (bar the Targ/fire dodge repeat), pity Dany did it first.

[Lyanna Stark]

David Selig, on 02 May 2012 - 02:47 AM, said:

See, it makes no sense to me to be free from the oath because of this. If he gets resurrected and is accepted as the same person, all his responsibilities should be the same. Getting away on a technicality which is pretty ambiguous to begin with (the oath ends with "I pledge my life and honor to the Night’s Watch, for this night and all the nights to come") really doesn't seem like something which would be accepted by most people in Westeros, and Jon himself.

Doesn't that depend on how long it takes though? If it takes a little while, then the Nights Watch will have a new Lord Commander, and that person may not want to relinquish command back to Jon. There could also be the possibility that there wil be other forces at play, like Melisandre. If she is the one to "heal" him, maybe she will decide that he can't stay at the Wall and will have to go to Stannis. Or as we've seen with Mance Rayder, she could glamour him to look like someone else. Depending on what happens in Jon's absence, there could be several reasons why it would not be an ideal scenario for him to "return" as LC of the NW right then and there.

It seems likely that Jon won't just be BAM fully recovered by Mel's magic trick due to the nature of his injuries, and it's probably not too far fetched to claim that Mel will have a certain say about how he is reintroduced. Jon also really wanted to go to Winterfell to answer the Bastard of Bolton's threat, so it may even be posible that he leaves the Night's Watch behind, and brings the Wildlings and whomever else he can down towards Winterfell with a plan to come back later and reclaim the Lord Commandership from whomever is holding it in the meantime.


Loving the idea of Jon walking out of the fire, Targ style!

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 02 May 2012 - 06:03 AM.

[ARYa_Nym]

Damon_Tor, on 01 May 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

That particular prophecy concludes with "Bride of Death" which implies the people listed are people will be/have been married to.  This is backed up by the fact that the first image is of her wedding night with Drogo.

Yes. & in ADWD she dreams of having sex with a dead person. The second person in the bride of fire sequence is referred to as a corpse so I think that strengthens the idea that the sequence refers to husbands but they don't have to be her only husbands just like she doesn't have to slay only three lies.

There is one other part where it says that she must light three fires and one of them is to love so this may have something to do with Jon. Maybe she gets him out of the NW. Stannis wanted to get him out for political reasons and it makes sense for her to want to do the same when she learns of his parentage.


Then there's the fact that Bloodraven calls him king. Jon is not at present a king since he's in the NW. So unless Bloodraven plans for him to be the Night's King then he may know that Jon will eventually leave.

People also think that when Melisandre asked for Stannis it was significant that she saw Jon.She also said show me your king, your instrument.

[snax]

I don't think we have seen the last of Jon's POV chapters. His thoughts and experiences warging into Ghost after the coup are too good to skip, and he is still a central character to the story. Also, as others have mentioned, he probably won't have completely lost his soul like unCat has.

[Buried Treasure]

ARYa_Nym, on 02 May 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

Yes. & in ADWD she dreams of having sex with a dead person. The second person in the bride of fire sequence is referred to as a corpse so I think that strengthens the idea that the sequence refers to husbands but they don't have to be her only husbands just like she doesn't have to slay only three lies.

The triplet of visions she was shown for daughter of death depicted her two brothers and her stillborn son rather than any of the people that she could actually said to be a daughter of. So I don't think this part of the prophecy is going to depict husbands, rather men she is going to have important interactions with at destiny-changing moments of her life (fire being symbolic of change).

I don't really see Jon and Dany being husband and wife so much as star-crossed lovers (with the emphasis on the star-crossed rather than them ever actually having the opportunity to make love).

As to the question, it really would be a technicility if Jon got out of the Watch for this reason. It certainly could not have been the intent of the creators of the oath, who are extremely unlikely to have anticipated such a scenario. Plus, as Dave Selig pointed out upthread, there is a contrary line in the oath pledging loyalty to the NW 'for this night and all nights to come.'

[snax]

How can Jon be expected to remain loyal to the NW when the very men of the NW attempted to end his life?