64 replies to this topic

[Viking]

1 - the blue flower is associated with Lyanna Stark, not TOJ or Jon
2 - the wording of the nights watch oath has him pledging to stand watch until he dies but pledge his life and honor for all the nights to come. His watch may have ended but his life and honor belong to the nights watch.
3- robb when discussing how to secure the succession talked about buying jon out of his oath. Suggesting that release from the oath is concievable for a true northman ™.

My guess is that he was murdered to keep the nights watch out of conflict with the Boltons. Having been dead will release Jon from the oath in his own mind and I suspect that whoever is the 999th lord commander will be happy to release him from the oath to keep the NW out of combat with Bolton. Then Jon Stark (when he gets that letter from Robb) Lord of Winterfell rides south with Tormund Giantsbane and all the other wildlings he got all riled up just before his murder picking up Karhold Men and Umbers on the way to Winterfell where the Flints, Norries and the other mountain men casually swap sides nobody will really care. They know what Ramsey Bolton is and they will understand.

Note, this gives Jon just enough time to sort out shit and return as Azor Ahai reborn to be the 1000th and last Lord Commander of the nights watch and be the little blue flower that cracks the wall.

[ARYa_Nym]

Buried Treasure, on 02 May 2012 - 06:55 AM, said:

The triplet of visions she was shown for daughter of death depicted her two brothers and her stillborn son rather than any of the people that she could actually said to be a daughter of. So I don't think this part of the prophecy is going to depict husbands, rather men she is going to have important interactions with at destiny-changing moments of her life (fire being symbolic of change).

I don't really see Jon and Dany being husband and wife so much as star-crossed lovers (with the emphasis on the star-crossed rather than them ever actually having the opportunity to make love).

I'm referring to the sequence that came after. First they said mother of dragons, daughter of death. Then they said mother of dragons, slayer of lies. & the final one was mother of dragons, bride of fire.

She would be the daughter of death  because the ones close to her have died. It doesn't mean that she's their daughter. The next two are things that she will do. She will slay lies and she will be a bride.

The bride of fire sequence isn't my only reason for thinking this will happen but since it's OT I'll leave it for another thread.

Edited by ARYa_Nym, 02 May 2012 - 07:10 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Viking, on 02 May 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

1 - the blue flower is associated with Lyanna Stark, not TOJ or Jon

Not to nitpick but if Jon is Lyanna's son, then it's fairly certain he has "inherited" her Blue rose as his symbol, especially as it is lodged in the ice of the Wall.

ARYa_Nym, on 02 May 2012 - 07:07 AM, said:

I'm referring to the sequence that came after. First they said mother of dragons, daughter of death. Then they said mother of dragons, slayer of lies. & the final one was mother of dragons, bride of fire.

She would be the daughter of death  because the ones close to her have died. It doesn't mean that she's their daughter. The next two are things that she will do. She will slay lies and she will be a bride.

The bride of fire sequence isn't my only reason for thinking this will happen but since it's OT I'll leave it for another thread.

Noes, don't leave it Or open a new one.

Agreed on the Daughter of Death definitely.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 02 May 2012 - 07:22 AM.

[Fruitcakes]

Apple Martini, on 01 May 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

Someone, I can't remember who, had the batshit-crazy-but-also-weirdly-awesome-idea that they'd try to burn Jon's "corpse" and he'd walk out of the fire, alive. Not going to happen and it'd be another confusing case of a Targ dodging fire (which I despise), but it has its own weird charm.

That would be me. And I don't think there is any particular reason to dismiss it simply as "batshit crazy". How can you be so sure it's not going to happen, have you read the next books? You can argue against the idea as much as you like, you know, with *arguments*; and yes, I was a bit mislead about fireproofness when I wrote it, but please don't tell me that weirder things haven't happened in the story.

Personally, I think Melisandre resurrecting Jon is "weaker" than Jon being reborn out of fire in a scenario not unlike one we have seen before. We know the red priests can cheat death, and we know that sometimes, a funeral pyre works in mysterious ways. The one isn't necessarily crazier than the other.

I would assume that if the ritual is over - the NW brothers saying the words "and now his watch is ended" - that would be enough for someone to be released of his oath. But that's just my opinion, or feeling. If someone else feels that's "getting off cheap", fair enough. We'll just disagree on that, is all.

(EDIT: Thread in question should anyone be interested: http://asoiaf.wester...-long-live-jon/ - and another one, older one which I hadn't seen before: http://asoiaf.wester...-consciousness/ )

Edited by Fruitcakes, 02 May 2012 - 08:30 AM.

[kg1982]

I do think that Jon and Dany is pretty canon due to the House of Undying.  However, I think that it is part political alliance, part complicated mess, not a great love story.  I think the first time they meet Jon tricks Dany out of a dragon

[Gurkhal]

Damon_Tor, on 01 May 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

It seems likely that Jon will be resurrected by Melisandra, presuming his wound are lethal (as they seem to be).  I can't think of a good reason why she wouldn't.

Anyway, whether she will or won't isn't the point of this thread.  The point is this: assuming she does, is Jon's oath to the Night's Watch fulfilled?  If Jon does, in fact, die, it appears that by the "letter of the law" he's once again be free to marry, hold lands, claim titles, etc etc.  Suddenly the now-forgotten sub-plot of Rob making him his heir becomes more relevant, along with Stannis' desire to see Jon as his Warden of the North.  The theory that he's Daenerys' "blue rose on a wall of ice" husband from the prophecy becomes more plausible.

Yes this is most likely the reason why Jon is stabbed. Can't say I like it but there's little chance that Martin will kill off a character as Jon.

[DarkSnow]

I had a theory that the whole killing of Jon was planned by Mel. This all depend on whether or not R + L = J theory is true though. My thoughts are maybe Mel revealed the truth of Jon parentage in her fires, and saw that he in fact has the blood of the kings (Targaryen) and that was needed as a Sacrifice for the Red God. And doing so she would also release Jon from the wall to play a greater part after his Resurrection. Just spit balling tho.

[Gurkhal]

DarkSnow, on 02 May 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

I had a theory that the whole killing of Jon was planned by Mel. This all depend on whether or not R + L = J theory is true though. My thoughts are maybe Mel revealed the truth of Jon parentage in her fires, and saw that he in fact has the blood of the kings (Targaryen) and that was needed as a Sacrifice for the Red God. And doing so she would also release Jon from the wall to play a greater part after his Resurrection. Just spit balling tho.

You don't think its considered questionable if you first sacrifice someone and then ressurect him? I think that most gods would consider that to be a bit cheap.

[Lyanna Stark]

DarkSnow, on 02 May 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

I had a theory that the whole killing of Jon was planned by Mel. This all depend on whether or not R + L = J theory is true though. My thoughts are maybe Mel revealed the truth of Jon parentage in her fires, and saw that he in fact has the blood of the kings (Targaryen) and that was needed as a Sacrifice for the Red God. And doing so she would also release Jon from the wall to play a greater part after his Resurrection. Just spit balling tho.

But we see in Mel's POV that she doesn't do this, and in fact, she's quite confused by her fire visions since they keep showing her Jon Snow (and Ghost) when she is asking to be shown Azor Azhai. There's nothing in her POVs that indicate her planning to murder Jon, in fact she warns him that he has many enemies, "daggers in the dark" etc.

[Buckwheat]

Even if Jon is resurrected by Melisandre (or Brandon, or anyone else for that matter), he will never be the same. Even Beric was not, every time he woke up from death, a larger part of his memories and personality was missing. Therefore, I believe that Jon will not die at all, he will be saved just before he dies. At least I hope so.

If he dies and is resurrected, he is still alive then. It does not free him from his wows.

kg1982, on 02 May 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

I think the first time they meet Jon tricks Dany out of a dragon

That would be very much out of character for Jon, I believe.

[eyeheartsansa]

I still havent thought of a way to resurrect Jon that would be satisfying to me.  It just seems that he better serves the story dead than alive at this point... unless - best case scenario - GRRM does something that nobody has thought of yet.

[koststerg]

I don't think Mel was behind Jon's assassination for all the reasons mentioned above plus Ghost's frindly behavior towards her and the lack of any reasonable motive.
But if Jon is dead (possible but not certain) then I think his days in the NW have ended whether he likes it or not. The NW men (a big part of them) will feel guilty, the wildings are scared of anything dead and the Queen (who I think was the mind behind the assassination) will not want him there. He will have to go north last hero style - he could become the POV through whom we will see more of the north - or more possibly go south to the abandoned Winterfell and become the center of the next line of defense for when the wall falls.

[BlueHighwind]

I know after those ungrateful dicks stabbed me a bunch I wouldn't be working that wall any more.  Its death do us part, my second life is all mine.  Haha, bitches.  Enjoy those Others.

Jon should get a tan in the Summer Isles.  He could use a vacation.

[Ser Wun Wun]

In terms of how Jon gets resurrected....Mel sees Jon with skulls all around him.  Some think they metaphorically just refer to death, but I believe he will literally wake up with skulls and bones strewn everywhere about Castle Black.

Specifically, I'm thinking that Jon will be reborn in a way very similar to that of Dany's dragons.  I expect a great funeral pyre will be made for him, but someone (BR and Bran most likely) will initiate some kind of magic and the fire will rage out of control.  Lots of people will be burned, probably Melisandre among them, and their deaths will "pay" for Jon's life.  I'm also hoping the Others attack during this whole thing, just to make it extra chaotic.

Shireen might also be one of the ones who dies in said fire.  She dreamed of a dragon eating her, no?  If she is consumed in the fire that brings back Jon, who is probably a Targ or "dragon", then that vision will have been fulfilled I think...

[genegirl]

I think Jon's soul is with Ghost, I don't know about how his resurrection will happen but he is definitely not gone.

[CC-Kingmaker]

the more i read the thoughts of rhaegar and the strange coincidences of certain prophecies, I think that Jon and Dany are not going to marry, but instead rule a conjoined Westeros, not truly united by marriage but by vow and power. Think about it
-Dead or not, Jon will be changed and not entirely human. Think Night's King. His dominion, which is already very similar to that of the Night's King is interesting, and his ties to WInterfell make him the ruler of the North yet he will not be willing to take it. Nor will he be a consort to marry or shirk his vows.
-Daenerys is basically barren by sorcery, something I doubt even Mel can fix. She is the mother of dragons, and through fire and blood, the North will be free. But where she frees them from Winter's curse she will most likely understand their fear and plight.
-Finally, if Jon is her cousin she will allow him to rule because she technically comes before him in succession, unless R+L=J is wrong. But Jon will not take it, and relinquish it to her, but in recognition she will let him keep the North, a dominion she never can understand.

At least this is a reasonable conclusion barring a lot of things. This would be bittersweet, and not exactly a Disney ending, and since GRRM wants a more LOTR-esque ending this would be it.

[Sofia Aillard]

Fruitcakes, on 02 May 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

(EDIT: Thread in question should anyone be interested: http://asoiaf.wester...-long-live-jon/ - and another one, older one which I hadn't seen before: http://asoiaf.wester...-consciousness/ )

Just read your old post and it really made sense to me! Two things though: GRRM had said that Dany's fireproffness was a one time only kind of thing (and we do see her get blisters with Drogon). The second and more personal: At this point, I don't care if Jon or anyone else dies. I don't even care if GRRM kills all humans in Westeros and Essos. But there will be hell to pay if he kills ONE MORE DIREWOLF!

I just thought that it would fulfill all kinds of things if he would be "reborn" at Winterfell's cripts...

Edited by Sofia, 02 May 2012 - 11:32 AM.

[7thton]

You guys are mostly assuming that Jon dies as a result of the attack. I, for one, am holding out hope that he will be saved. Saved by some of the Wildings who feel a debt of gratitude to him.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I don't think Jon has to quit the Night's Watch, I think he's been fired.  I also suspect that there might not be a Night's Watch left at Castle Black when Jon awakes/revives because there are three factions poised to fight over his dead body: the Night's Watch, the Wildings led by Tormund (who were already whipped up and ready to go), and the Queen's Men.  Who knows what chaos will ensue.

Assuming Mel knows how to deliver R'hllor's kiss, I'm so hoping she doesn't get her nasty red lips on my Jon – although I'd kinda like to see her kiss him and get turned into a block of ice.  Actually, Mel might be a red herring, with everyone expecting her to do the resurrecting because Thoros has done it, but then it'll turn out that she can't/doesn't.  Besides, Jon already belongs to the old gods (Bran and Bloodraven) and I don't think they're going to let any fire tart mess with their ice boy.

The blue rose is a symbol of the love between Rhaegar and Lyanna (he gave her the wreath, she died clutching the dried flowers).  Dead give-away that R + L = J.  I don't see the bride of fire getting hitched to the blue ice-rose.  

[Buried Treasure]

A few people have made the point that Jon may not want to stay loyal to the Watch after being betrayed but I feel that a distinction should be drawn between the Watch as an organisation and the actual purpose that a brother is commiting himself to.

When all the conventions and niceties about honour are stripped away the point of the oath boils down to 'guard against the Others.' Jon's arc has been a process of him coming to understand that nothing but this goal is important, and he has gradually sacrificed his personal loyalties, his honour and even his loyalty to the organisation of the NW itself (or at least that is my interpretion of him wanting to march south without his sworn brothers).

Even if Jon is driven away from  the Watch or formally told by the new LC that he is no longer bound by his oath there is nothing to stop him from immediately reswearing it. His mindset when he travelled with the new recruits to the weirwood grove was entirely about saving the realms of men - and in that instance he did repeat the oaths to affirm his commitment before the old gods. I don't fully understand what was motivitating Jon in the last chapter, but even if his only reason for going south was to save 'Arya' (and therefore breaking the oath about having no family) then I don't for a moment think that he has changed his mind about the absolute need to defeat the others.

ARYa_Nym, on 02 May 2012 - 07:07 AM, said:

I'm referring to the sequence that came after. First they said mother of dragons, daughter of death. Then they said mother of dragons, slayer of lies. & the final one was mother of dragons, bride of fire.

She would be the daughter of death  because the ones close to her have died. It doesn't mean that she's their daughter. The next two are things that she will do. She will slay lies and she will be a bride.

The bride of fire sequence isn't my only reason for thinking this will happen but since it's OT I'll leave it for another thread.

I realise that the discussion of Dany and Jon being lovers refers to the bride of fire part of the prophecy. My point was merely that as daughter of death does not refer to 3 people who are actually her parents then bride of fire need not refer to 3 literal  husbands.