224 replies to this topic

[ARYa_Nym]

Okay, so I decided to compile the reasons why I think they will be together.

Quote

"Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars."

Quote

"A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly."

She dreams of sex with a corpse in ADWD:

Quote

"Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her...but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice."

So to me that implies at the very least that the she will be sexually intimate with the men in the bride of fire sequence.

Quote

"A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness."

Quote

. . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

Quote

. . . three heads has the dragon . . .
. . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . .
. . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . .
. . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

The mother of the direwolves was huge:

Quote

"But it was the size of it that made him gasp. It was bigger than his pony, twice the size of the largest hound in his father's kennel."

Ghost is a male so he should be even bigger.

Dany hears a wolf in the distance in ADWD. I believe that this is a subtle clue.

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"Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound made her feel sad and lonely, but no less hungry."

Jon thinks that Val and Ghost look like they belong together.

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"Then Ghost emerged from between the two trees, with Val beside him. They look as though they belong together...It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely."

There is a scene which IMO is subtle foreshadowing where Val's hair looks like Dany's. I don't think that this is a coincidence.

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"The light of the half-moon turned Val's honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow."

Jon specifically wants a son. Dany lost one. Dany's MMD curse is coming true in ADWD. She just needs to have a living child.

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"I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall."

IMO, Val is misdirection. He thinks that Val would be a worthy wife but his actual wife will be Dany.

Quote

"A nubile girl, not hard to look upon. Good hips, good breasts, well made for whelping children." All true enough, but the wildling woman was so much more...She may not be a princess, but she would make a worthy wife for any lord."

People use this quote Jon said about Axell Florent to show that they aren't compatible.

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"What sort of man can stand idly and watch his own brother being burned alive?"

If anything I think this will be a joke on Jon. The woman he loves will have done this. This is like when he told Arya that bastards can't harm princes in reference to Joffrey.

Now, I understand that this one has no evidence but I believe that the face she can't see is Jon's.

Quote

"Sometimes she would close her eyes and dream of him, but it was never Jorah Mormont she dreamed of; her lover was always younger and more comely, though his face remained a shifting shadow."

Feel free to disagree. I know many hate this pairing.

[Jayce]

I have thought this since the first book tbh, I couldn't explain it then but the more I have read on this forum about R+L=J and the more recent books showing what kind of people they are growing up to be the more I think this will happen. Even though I now kind of don't want it to happen, ah well, such is life.

[Lyanna Stark]

Good points on Val there, especially when her hair turned to silver in the moonlight. I agree as well that she seems to be a misdirection. Her colouring is quite similar to Dany's only Val is not quite Targaryen coloured, but close enough.

The corpse she is dreaming ofI always figured to be Euron, since his lips are described as blue and bruised and he's definitely a slimey, cold ruthless type of person.

[DragonSpawn]

The first quote - i'm not sure about - especially as they have killed off her horse in the TV series!

The second quote "grey lips smiling sadly" = Greyjoy (Either Victarion / Theon) - I rule out Euron based on the "EYES bright" - being plural - as Euron has one black eye...

Otherwise... I think you are spot on: The last quote is one i jokingly posted in the small questions thread ages ago as Dany having a wet-dream about Jon Snow too!

Edited by DragonSpawn, 02 May 2012 - 08:41 AM.

[Buckwheat]

I always thought the House of the Undying prophecies referred to Jon as well. But I am not sure about the corpse on the crow of a ship, I think it is supposed to be a Greyjoy. I cannot see Jon being connected to "a ship" in any way, it seems unlikely to me that he would ever go on a sea voyage. Unless if it is some kind of a figurative ship.

[victim]

Please, don't let it be so. This would be the only thing that could make stop me reading.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

You know I disagree and we have discussed about it many times on the thread Hope for Jon+Dany on the ADWD subforum, so I'm not even going there. Everyone interpretes the reading in his own way, where you see foreshadowing I see nothing, to be honest (especially Val's hair turning silver under the moonlight? Every blonde's hair turns silver under the silver light of the moon, and as far as I remember Daenerys hair is silver-gold, not silver) Anyway, I still hold hope this will never happen cause it would be the stupidest pairing ever.

Edited by Val the Wildling Princess, 02 May 2012 - 08:55 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Buckwheat, on 02 May 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

I always thought the House of the Undying prophecies referred to Jon as well. But I am not sure about the corpse on the crow of a ship, I think it is supposed to be a Greyjoy. I cannot see Jon being connected to "a ship" in any way, it seems unlikely to me that he would ever go on a sea voyage. Unless if it is some kind of a figurative ship.

Indeed. While it would make sense for it to be Euron in the "blue and bruised" sense, why would he look like a corpse and smile sadly? The guy is a madman, so that doesn't make sense. The only Greyjoy it fits with is probably Theon as he's half a corpse and has reasons enough to feel sad about things.

victim, on 02 May 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

Please, don't let it be so. This would be the only thing that could make stop me reading.

Is there really need for this type of hyperbole?

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 02 May 2012 - 08:52 AM.

[LifeRuiner]

I wouldn't mind this pairing if Martin writes them convincingly. Two of my favorite characters, after all! Still, I don't see the foreshadowing and then, their personalities and tastes are so different that I don't see it happening romantically. I'd love for them to meet, though.

[theguyfromtheVale]

I don't really like the Jon/Dany pairing myself, at least if Martin plays that one straight. But I think it's unavoidable, given all the foreshadowing. And, after all - when has Martin played a trope perfectly straight? And then with such a central (if it happens) plot point? Don't expect that. I can see a lot of ways this can be a pairing and still be satisfying.

[Buckwheat]

Lyanna Stark, on 02 May 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

Indeed. While it would make sense for it to be Euron in the "blue and bruised" sense, why would he look like a corpse and smile sadly? The guy is a madman, so that doesn't make sense. The only Greyjoy it fits with is probably Theon as he's half a corpse and has reasons enough to feel sad about things.

I kept thinking it was about Euron all the time, until someone on this forum pointed out that Euron only has one eye, and the prophecy speaks about eyes in plural. I still think the "blue lips" (shade of the evening) and looking like dead (him being very pale) applies to him the best.

But it is also possible for it to be Victarion, just because he is the one who is currently sailing towards Dany and is most likely to meet her in the timespan of the books. I think Theon will be going back to the Isles soon, and maybe he will never meet Dany. But it is true that he is sad and looks like a corpse.

[ARYa_Nym]

Val the Wildling Princess, on 02 May 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

You know I disagree and we have discussed about it many times on the thread Hope for Jon+Dany on the ADWD subforum, so I'm not even going there. Everyone interpretes the reading in his own way, where you see foreshadowing I see nothing, to be honest (especially Val's hair turning silver under the moonlight? Every blonde's hair turns silver under the silver light of the moon, and as far as I remember Daenerys hair is silver-gold, not silver) Anyway, I still hold hope this will never happen cause it would be the stupidest pairing ever.

LOL, yes I know. We'll never agree.

Anyways, on the matter of the Undying I think the first one refers to her marriage with Drogo. The second one is a Greyjoy but idk which one. I think it's b/w Euron and Victarion though. The eye of Euron that you can see is referred to as his smiling eye though so maybe it's him. The other one was said to be black and shining with malice.


Anyways, I like Jon and Dany. The first relationships they were both in their partner had power of them. Dany now has power over Daario. Val is a hostage so Jon has power over her if they were ever to become intimate. Dany and Jon have the opportunity to be equals.

Edited by ARYa_Nym, 02 May 2012 - 09:38 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

ARYa_Nym, on 02 May 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Anyways, I like Jon and Dany. The first relationships they were both in their partner had power of them. Dany now has power over Daario. Val is a hostage so Jon has power over her if they were ever to become intimate. Dany and Jon have the opportunity to be equals.

Don't you think this is because people are so fond of the subversion of various tropes that they automatically root for the "hero characters' " downfall? It feels a bit like in the race for more subversion, more grit and for it to be a less heroic tale, the more traditional "good" characters have to fail. I'm not saying that they cannot, or that they will not, just that people have an easier time thinking of them as boring and non-engaging.Or even wishing for their death or at the very least, destruction.

(Tbh if this is the stuff people are after, I think they should maybe have a stab at "The First Law" by Abercrombie where the good side is just another side of bad )

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 02 May 2012 - 09:40 AM.

[ARYa_Nym]

Lyanna Stark, on 02 May 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

Don't you think this is because people are so fond of the subversion of various tropes that they automatically root for the "hero characters' " downfall? It feels a bit like in the race for more subversion, more grit and for it to be a less heroic tale, the more traditional "good" characters have to fail. I'm not saying that they cannot, or that they will not, just that people have an easier time thinking of them as boring and non-engaging.Or even wishing for their death or at the very least, destruction.

(Tbh if this is the stuff people are after, I think they should maybe have a stab at "The First Law" by Abercrombie where the good side is just another side of bad )

LOL, IA. Many people think that both or one of them will die because they are involved with the AA aspect of the series and I guess the ones who save the day must die.

Or in Dany's case some don't want her to be the hero because she's not "good" anymore so she needs to be the villain now.

Jon fans and Dany fans often argue over which one gets to be AA but I don't see what's so great about being the hero. The people who save the day are usually forgotten see the first AA. & the masses don't care as long as they survive.


I'll be honest and admit that I just care about the restoration of House Targaryen because it's my favorite house.

[Buckwheat]

ARYa_Nym, on 02 May 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Anyways, I like Jon and Dany. The first relationships they were both in their partner had power of them. Dany now has power over Daario. Val is a hostage so Jon has power over her if they were ever to become intimate. Dany and Jon have the opportunity to be equals.

I do not think their situations are comparable in this. The first relationships with Drogo and Ygritte respectively, maybe, although Drogo still had much more power over Dany than Ygritte over Jon. But Daario and Val, not really. I think that Dany has no real power over Daario, actually she is much more psychically dependant on him than he is on her. Dany can make him do things she commands, as long as she pays him. Daario does everything he does because of his profit in it. Jon and Val can never have such relationship, I think. Even if they develop some kind of a love relationship (please, no), it will be very much different than Dany/Daario.

[ARYa_Nym]

Buckwheat, on 02 May 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

I do not think their situations are comparable in this. The first relationships with Drogo and Ygritte respectively, maybe, although Drogo still had much more power over Dany than Ygritte over Jon. But Daario and Val, not really. I think that Dany has no real power over Daario, actually she is much more psychically dependant on him than he is on her. Dany can make him do things she commands, as long as she pays him. Daario does everything he does because of his profit in it. Jon and Val can never have such relationship, I think. Even if they develop some kind of a love relationship (please, no), it will be very much different than Dany/Daario.

I don't think their relationships are exact just that they both had uneven power dynamics.

Ygritte had Jon's life in her hands. He was like a captive who could forget that he wasn't free. Dany/Drogo was worse though.

Daario did have to take a backseat to Dany's wishes. He didn't want her to marry Hizdahr but she is the queen.

  I think Jon/Val's relationship would have been worse because she has absolutely no say especially when Stannis wanted her to be the Lady of WF. I feel bad for her.

Jon thinks that she will just geld the lord that she doesn't want but Selyse or Stannis could have her killed for doing that.

Edited by ARYa_Nym, 02 May 2012 - 10:06 AM.

[another bastard]

And I'll compile one excellent reason why they should not be together: incest. Incest is bad, OK? It makes me hurl. And every known culture has had incest taboos at this degree of relation, so it obviously makes a lot of people hurl, around the world and down through time, which suggests that there's pretty good genetic reasons for this reaction.

In the story, incest has destroyed the Targs. If Dany is going to survive and mature and actually become a decent queen of anything, she has to rinse everything she learned from her psycho brother out of her brain and be a different kind of Targ. No more "fire and blood" conquest fantasies and no more incest would be an excellent start.

If she's going to really grow up, she needs to absorb some heavy doses of truth - first from Tyrion and then from Jon, and hopefully from others too.

She's certainly had visions which reference Jon, like the blue rose in the wall, which only indicates that there's an unknown relative of hers alive - who she might recognize as the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna if she ever bothers to learn the details of what actually happened during Robert's rebellion - and that they're probably destined to meet and play significant role in each other's lives (like, say, joining forces against the Others with her nifty fire breathing dragons). But everything doesn't have to be sexual. Especially with your damned nephew. Please.

And Jon is my favorite character. The thought of him falling in love with and banging his aunt and marrying her and producing more incest babies just makes me ill as all hell. Fortunately I can't imagine he'd be OK with that.

[Lyanna Stark]

ARYa_Nym, on 02 May 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

LOL, IA. Many people think that both or one of them will die because they are involved with the AA aspect of the series and I guess the ones who save the day must die.

Quote possible of course, but a "bittersweet" ending does not mean that both of them necessarily need to die.

Quote

Or in Dany's case some don't want her to be the hero because she's not "good" anymore so she needs to be the villain now.

Ah yes. I would LOVE for Dany to end up on the Iron Throne since finally a woman would be allowed to show ambition which is about as taboo in fantasy literature as showing men having sex with other men. It would also completely redeem her Stockholm syndrome marriage to Drogo from a gender POV. A lot of people hate Dany for actually having ambition, but to me that is among her best qualities. She's ambitious and isn't ashamed to admit it. Go for it, I say!

another bastard, on 02 May 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

And I'll compile one excellent reason why they should not be together: incest. Incest is bad, OK? It makes me hurl. And every known culture has had incest taboos at this degree of relation, so it obviously makes a lot of people hurl, around the world and down through time, which suggests that there's pretty good genetic reasons for this reaction.

Old Egypt says Hi 2 you. As would the Habsburgs and several other "cultures".

Besides, the Targaryens were known for marrying brother to sister a lot, which makes it a tradition.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 02 May 2012 - 10:09 AM.

[koststerg]

I think the hints are valid so it could happen and I agree that whether it works or not, it depends on how george will write it.

My main question is if there is enough time in the story for this to happen in a gradual and convincing way?

Don't forget that Dany has to go east before west, south before north, back before forward, left before right. Maybe she will mistake dizyness for love ... Anyway, I don't think they can easily meet before the begining of the 7th book, and even that is very optimistic, which doesn't leave them much time to interact.

[Dacie]

ARYa_Nym, on 02 May 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

I'll be honest and admit that I just care about the restoration of House Targaryen because it's my favorite house.

Do you think that Dany can/will bear children? I know it is widely believed she had a miscarriage at the end of ADwD, but being able to get pregnant and being able to bear a living child are two entirely different things.

I'm torn about the Targs. I really started to like them after reading Dunk and Egg, but there's the whole greatness and madness issue. For every Baelor Breakspear you have an Aerion Brightflame.

And I have to side with Val the Wildling Princess on this. I really don't want Dany and Jon to end up together. I don't think their personalities would mesh well, and I believe they want different things.

I think she could just as easily end up hating him. He's (probably) the son of the woman that her brother loved(?) enough to encite rebellion and cause the downfall of her entire family. Not to mention he was raised by the usurper's BFF.

And he's her nephew, and if R+L=J and he's legit, he has a much better claim to the Iron Throne than her.

Edited by GiveMeSomeSnow, 02 May 2012 - 10:26 AM.