164 replies to this topic

[Lady Hodor]

So there's been a lot of speculation about Jaqen and why he was in the Black Cells in the first place.
Well, I was just re-reading A Feast For Crows, and I found this information that seemed a little too suspicous.

Read it and see if you agree:

"The night that Lord Varys and your brother disappeared, a third man also vanished."
"Yes, the gaoler. What of him?"
"Rugen was the man's name. And undergaoler who had charge of the black cells. The chief undergaoler decribs him as portly, unshaven, gruff of speech. He held his appointment to the old king, Aerys, and came and went as he pleased. The black cells have not oft been occupied in recent years. The other turnkeys were afraid of him, it seems, but no one knew much about him. He had no friends, no kin. Nor did he drink or frequent brothels. His sleeping cell was damp and dreary, and the straw he slept upon was mildewed. His chamber pot was overflowing."
"I know all this." Jaime had examined Rugen's cell, and ser Addam's gold cloaks had examined it again.
"Aye, Your Grace," said Qyburn, "but did you know that under that stinking chamber pot was a loose stone, which opened on a small hollow? The sort of place where a man might hide valuables he did not wish to be discovered?"
"Valuables?" This was new. "Coin, you mean?" She had suspected all along that Tyrion had somehow bought this gaoler.
"Beyond a doubt. To be sure, the hole was empty when I found it. No doubt Rugen took his ill-gotten treasures with him when he fled. But as I crouched over the hole with my torch, I saw something glitter, so I scratched in the dirt till I dug it out." Qyburn opened his palm. "A gold coin."
Gold, yes, but the moment Cersei took it tell that it was wrong. Too small, she thought, too thin. The coin was old and worn. On one side was a king's face in profile, on the other was the imprint of a hand.

That was a conversation between Cersei and Qyburn, yet "Rugen" is mentioned again later:

"Rugen" the old man supplied. "An undergaoler. He had charge of the third level, the black cells."
"Tell me of him," Jaime had to say. A bloody farce. He knew who Rugen was, even if Longwaters did not.
"Unkempt, unshaven, coarse of speech. I misliked the man, 'tis true, I do confess it. Rugen was here when I first came, twelve years past. He held his appointment from King Aerys. The man was seldom here, it must be said. I made not of it in my reports, I most suredly did, I give you my word upon it, the word of a man with royal blood."
Mention royal blood once more and I may spill some of it, thought Jaime. "Who saw these reports?"
"Certain of them went to the master of coin, others to the master of whisperers. All to the chief gaoler and the King's Justice. It has always been so in the dungeons." Longwaters scratched his nose. "Rugen was here when need be my lord. That must be said. The black cells are little used. Before your lordship's little brother was sent down, we had Grand Maester Pycelle for a time, and before him Lord Stark the traitor. There were three others, common men, but Lord Stark gave them to the Night's Watch. I did not think it good to free those three, but the papers were in proper order."

It just struck me when I was reading that it seemed rather suspicious and coincedental.

A worn out coin? Rather like the one that Jaqen gave Arya to take her to the Faceless Men?
So if Rugen was a Faceless Man, did he put Jaqen there on purpose for some inside mission?
Or was Jaqen, Rugen? They repeat that he's often gone, maybe off on assassinations?
And no one knowing him or anything about him is a "lack of identity" trait of the Faceless Men.

Plus they mention the man twice, consectutivley, would they do so unless he was signifigant?
And is it a coincedence that the previous chapter is Arya, and she reminds us who Jaqen was?
The idea of people being afraid of Rugen, is like how Rorge and Biter were afraid of Jaqen.
Not an important note, but their names are similar. "Rugen" - "Jaqen".

And what does JAIME know? Is Rugen actually Varys? Does Varys have a connection with the Faceless Men?
Is that why he always dresses up in costumes and why he's so deviously cunning?

Thoughts?

[Lord Damian]

Varys is the most mysterious of almost all known to be alive characters, with the exception of Howland Reed. Jaqen gets around, that is for sure.

[Lummel]

Lady Hodor, on 02 May 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

...Is Rugen actually Varys? ...

Yes.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Lady Hodor, on 02 May 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

So there's been a lot of speculation about Jaqen and why he was in the Black Cells in the first place. Well, I was just re-reading A Feast For Crows, and I found this information that seemed a little too suspicous. Read it and see if you agree: "The night that Lord Varys and your brother disappeared, a third man also vanished." "Yes, the gaoler. What of him?" "Rugen was the man's name. And undergaoler who had charge of the black cells. The chief undergaoler decribs him as portly, unshaven, gruff of speech. He held his appointment to the old king, Aerys, and came and went as he pleased. The black cells have not oft been occupied in recent years. The other turnkeys were afraid of him, it seems, but no one knew much about him. He had no friends, no kin. Nor did he drink or frequent brothels. His sleeping cell was damp and dreary, and the straw he slept upon was mildewed. His chamber pot was overflowing." "I know all this." Jaime had examined Rugen's cell, and ser Addam's gold cloaks had examined it again. "Aye, Your Grace," said Qyburn, "but did you know that under that stinking chamber pot was a loose stone, which opened on a small hollow? The sort of place where a man might hide valuables he did not wish to be discovered?" "Valuables?" This was new. "Coin, you mean?" She had suspected all along that Tyrion had somehow bought this gaoler. "Beyond a doubt. To be sure, the hole was empty when I found it. No doubt Rugen took his ill-gotten treasures with him when he fled. But as I crouched over the hole with my torch, I saw something glitter, so I scratched in the dirt till I dug it out." Qyburn opened his palm. "A gold coin." Gold, yes, but the moment Cersei took it tell that it was wrong. Too small, she thought, too thin. The coin was old and worn. On one side was a king's face in profile, on the other was the imprint of a hand. That was a conversation between Cersei and Qyburn, yet "Rugen" is mentioned again later: "Rugen" the old man supplied. "An undergaoler. He had charge of the third level, the black cells." "Tell me of him," Jaime had to say. A bloody farce. He knew who Rugen was, even if Longwaters did not. "Unkempt, unshaven, coarse of speech. I misliked the man, 'tis true, I do confess it. Rugen was here when I first came, twelve years past. He held his appointment from King Aerys. The man was seldom here, it must be said. I made not of it in my reports, I most suredly did, I give you my word upon it, the word of a man with royal blood." Mention royal blood once more and I may spill some of it, thought Jaime. "Who saw these reports?" "Certain of them went to the master of coin, others to the master of whisperers. All to the chief gaoler and the King's Justice. It has always been so in the dungeons." Longwaters scratched his nose. "Rugen was here when need be my lord. That must be said. The black cells are little used. Before your lordship's little brother was sent down, we had Grand Maester Pycelle for a time, and before him Lord Stark the traitor. There were three others, common men, but Lord Stark gave them to the Night's Watch. I did not think it good to free those three, but the papers were in proper order." It just struck me when I was reading that it seemed rather suspicious and coincedental. A worn out coin? Rather like the one that Jaqen gave Arya to take her to the Faceless Men? So if Rugen was a Faceless Man, did he put Jaqen there on purpose for some inside mission? Or was Jaqen, Rugen? They repeat that he's often gone, maybe off on assassinations? And no one knowing him or anything about him is a "lack of identity" trait of the Faceless Men. Plus they mention the man twice, consectutivley, would they do so unless he was signifigant? And is it a coincedence that the previous chapter is Arya, and she reminds us who Jaqen was? The idea of people being afraid of Rugen, is like how Rorge and Biter were afraid of Jaqen. Not an important note, but their names are similar. "Rugen" - "Jaqen". And what does JAIME know? Is Rugen actually Varys? Does Varys have a connection with the Faceless Men? Is that why he always dresses up in costumes and why he's so deviously cunning? Thoughts?

Well... The gold coin was from the Queen of Thorns.  It was gold and a Gardner coin.  I assumed Varys put it there specifically to be found so that Cersei would believe the Tyrells had conspired with Tyrion.  Longwaters isn't very impressive and neither are any other Gaolers we've met. They're like a  notch below gold cloaks.  So that the face that they're afraid of someone isn't very impressive.  


Anyway, obviously Pycelle was in the black cells, Rugen must have been there, since Longwaters says he was always there when needs be. At that time Jaquen was strapped to a wagon.  

Lord Damian, on 02 May 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

Varys is the most mysterious of almost all known to be alive characters, with the exception of Howland Reed. Jaqen gets around, that is for sure.

Not really.  Once we find out all of Varys' disguises are from being a freaking mummer, and that Shae can see through them, he becomes pretty much a joke and stays that way.

[Buttered Turnip]

Lady Hodor, on 02 May 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Is Rugen actually Varys?

This is what I always assumed.

[Apple Martini]

Rugen is Varys.

The coin is not the same sort of coin Jaqen gave Arya. It's an old coin from pre-Conquest days, from the Reach — the sigil of House Gardener, who preceded the Tyrells, was a green hand. Varys planted it, knowing that everyone knew the Queen of Thorns kept a chest of such coins in her wheelhouse. The idea being, if Cersei found such a coin in the dungeon, she would think that the Tyrells had a hand in springing Tyrion, sowing mistrust and throwing her off Varys' trail.

Nothing to do with Jaqen.

Edited by Apple Martini, 02 May 2012 - 11:33 AM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Apple Martini, on 02 May 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

Rugen is Varys. The coin is not the same sort of coin Jaqen gave Arya. It's an old coin from pre-Conquest days, from the Reach — the sigil of House Gardener, who preceded the Tyrells, was a green hand. Varys planted it, knowing that everyone knew the Queen of Thorns kept a chest of such coins in her wheelhouse. The idea being, if Cersei found such a coin in the dungeon, she would think that the Tyrells had a hand in springing Tyrion, sowing mistrust and throwing her off Varys' trail. Nothing to do with Jaqen.

Oh, I don't know that Rugen is Varys.

[Red Wedding Singer]

Varys def = Rugen - Hence the reason he is able to visit Ned Stark so easily.

As to Varys' connection to the FM, I didn't get that impression.

However I was always curious as to what Jaqen was doing in KL, what and how much the FM know, and where their loyalties lie.  I can't wait to see where they fit in the puzzle.

[Lady Hodor]

You dont think its strange that they mention Jaqen in the same speech about Rugen?
And the whole "no friend no kin" thing being like a Faceless Man?

[Lummel]

They don't mention Jaqen by name in that speech.  Longwaters actually mentions everybody who has been in the black cells since AGOT.   The point is there never are that many people in the black cells and that Longwaters keeps careful and exact records.

Varys also has no (known) friends or kin.

[Apple Martini]

Lady Hodor, on 02 May 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

You dont think its strange that they mention Jaqen in the same speech about Rugen?
And the whole "no friend no kin" thing being like a Faceless Man?

I doubt that Varys really knew what he had down there, or has anything to do with the Faceless Men. And in any case, the coin is a reference to the Tyrells, not Jaqen (who is not mentioned by named).

Edited by Apple Martini, 02 May 2012 - 12:01 PM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Apple Martini, on 02 May 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

I doubt that Varys really knew what he had down there, or has anything to do with the Faceless Men. And in any case, the coin is a reference to the Tyrells, not Jaqen (who is not mentioned by named).

Why is everyone so sure Varys is Rugen? When Ned is in the black cells he's visited by two distinct jailers.  I feel like pretending to be Rugen would be a pain in the ass for Varys since he doesn't have control over how many people are thrown in the black cells.

[Lady Hodor]

Jaqen may not be mentioned by name, but he speaks of three prisoners: Rorge, Biter, Jaqen. It is them he speaks of, without a doubt.
And I thought it a well placed, if suspicious, note right next to the information on this strange Rugen guy.

[Lummel]

Since AGOT there have been five prisoners in the black cells and by Longwater's account that was unusually busy.  The black cells three, Pycelle and The Ned.  That's it.  So of course they are going to be mentioned while Longwaters is showing off to Jaime how complete his record keeping is.

Plus we see Varys as Rugen, once while The Ned is in the Black Cells after Jaqen has been removed and is chained to a cart somewhere in Kings Landing.

Edited by Lummel, 02 May 2012 - 12:14 PM.

[Apple Martini]

Lady Hodor, on 02 May 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

Jaqen may not be mentioned by name, but he speaks of three prisoners: Rorge, Biter, Jaqen. It is them he speaks of, without a doubt.
And I thought it a well placed, if suspicious, note right next to the information on this strange Rugen guy.

Of course it's them he speaks of, they were the only three dudes in there besides Ned and Pycelle, later on.

[Miriel]

Varys is undeniably Rugen.

I think there is a mystery as to how Jaqen got in the Black Cells though.

Martin didn't just plop Jaqen in there at random to advance Arya's storyline. As Lummel and others pointed out--we know that there have been very few prioners in the Black Cells in recent times.  And even Rorge and Biter got a backstory but not Jaqen? I can't believe Jaqen is just in there de novo.   Martin is too great a storyteller for that.

There is a reason Jaqen was there--I find it hard to believe Varys did not know.

Edited by Miriel, 02 May 2012 - 12:27 PM.

[James Arryn]

Lord Littlefinger, on 02 May 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

Why is everyone so sure Varys is Rugen? When Ned is in the black cells he's visited by two distinct jailers.  I feel like pretending to be Rugen would be a pain in the ass for Varys since he doesn't have control over how many people are thrown in the black cells.

He had some control, but more, he had perfect knowledge. And in that his life is basically lead within a short space from the cells, I don't see the issue. We already know that he is in and out of everything/where around the RK at will.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

James Arryn, on 02 May 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

He had some control, but more, he had perfect knowledge. And in that his life is basically lead within a short space from the cells, I don't see the issue. We already know that he is in and out of everything/where around the RK at will.

right, what does that have to do with being Rugen?

[James Arryn]

Lord Littlefinger, on 02 May 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

Oh, I don't know that Rugen is Varys.

No offense, but it seems to me that what you know and what you want to know are hard to distinguish from one another.

Anyways, according to Wiki, GRRM has indeed confirmed that Rugen is Varys. (DVD commentary at the end of Pointy End)

Will this realization cause you to reevaluate Varys as a player, or is he still a joke, just a different one than the one you thought you knew?


An irony to me is that LF's greatest flaw, intellectually, is his failure to sufficiently account for Varys...

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Lummel, on 02 May 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

Since AGOT there have been five prisoners in the black cells and by Longwater's account that was unusually busy. The black cells three, Pycelle and The Ned. That's it. So of course they are going to be mentioned while Longwaters is showing off to Jaime how complete his record keeping is. Plus we see Varys as Rugen, once while The Ned is in the Black Cells after Jaqen has been removed and is chained to a cart somewhere in Kings Landing.

We see Varys dressed as a jailer.

As for it being unusually busy. Varys doesn't really have control over that. That's more a product of Robert. As soon as he dies, the business picks up steadily in the black cells. We're Varys Rugen, I don't think he would have needed to drug the other jailers, ect, ect.  I just don't think Varys' character have identities just anonymous begging brother, anonymous jailer, anonymous ugly woman.  His goal is to blend into the background.