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Spec Fic: Why So Serious?


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#1 Sci-2

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 04:31 PM

Elizabeth Bear says Spec Fic has gotten to be a real downer.


Quote

The thing is, that kind of cynical pose is really just a juvenile reaction to the world not being what we hoped. We can't have everything—so we reject anything. But it's adolescent, darling, and most of us outgrow it. We realize that as much as the world can be a ball of dung, and horrible things can happen for no reason, there are positive outcomes too, sometimes. I'm not going to say things balance out, because of course they don't—life is not fair—but it's not just awful, either.

I'm not crying out for slapstick, here. You know that's never done it for me. And I'm certainly not saying that I want you to be shallower.

If anything, I'm asking you to be deeper—to embrace more of the range of human experience. Not just the bad times. I mean, sure, we need to acknowledge the bad times, and I've deeply admired your recent willingness to explore new perspectives, to take on issues of race and gender and sexuality that once you would have shied from.

I have never doubted your courage.

But look at Terry Pratchett....


#2 Myshkin

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:15 PM

Not that I disagree* with her, but her "letter" to Spec Fic railing against its pretentiousness, is a bit pretentious.

*though it's not the writing that I think has become more pretentious, but rather the writers.

#3 Sci-2

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 07:13 PM

I didn't understand her point TBH, and wish she'd given at least offered a minimal survey of the field.

ETA: Elizabeth Moon offers her thoughts:



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Mostly agreement: yes, dark/twisted/angsty/gloomy/cynical does seem to dominate some areas the very broad genre. And yes, I agree that the relentlessly sour & bitter has a limited appeal. Tired of it now.

But...the same attitudes had been at the forefront of literary fiction--critically praised, taught in schools & colleges as a virtue for writers--for over decades before the New Wave brought them into SF/F, along with the idea that science fiction (not, originally, fantasy) should be treated with respect by critics, taught in schools and colleges. To the extent that this genre is a subset of all writing, it will be affected by what's going on out there beyond the (now very porous) wall. So we have editors who favor the gloomy and dystopic, critics and reviewers who favor the gloomy and dystopic, and readers who grew up being taught in schools and colleges that anything worth notice is...you guessed it...dark and dystopic. (And along came Terry Pratchett and kicked that can across the street.)

Has the genre sold its soul for literary recognition (and then got only a wizened sour apple, not the golden one?) Not really, because the other kinds of stories are still there...and, like hard SF by women, or strong women characters, or characters of color, or characters of various gender identities, they're there, but regularly dismissed as not being there, or not being...something that the reader/critic/reviewer recognized, the way they wanted that kind of character presented.
The failure of The Hunger Games readers to notice that some characters were black (and thus be shocked by the movie) is instructive here. The prevailing standards emanating from literary fiction tended to give the "serious" label only to SF/F that was dystopic, bitter, sour, twisted (by whatever definitions were in hand) and dismiss other works as trivial, shallow, and obvious. If the book didn't end in grimness--it was supposedly a cop-out. That's not just in SF/F...that attitude began long ago in literary fiction. When I was in college, the one creative writing class at our university turned out uniformly unpleasant works--and admitting to writing SF was anathema..."not really literature" I was told.

So just as Rowling has been dismissed by some serious critics, many works in science fiction that combine seriousness, humor, and (gasp) even a moderately happy ending do not get the critical mention of the next dark exploration of human misery. Yet even in a tragedy, humor has a place. Rollicking has a place. Many more writers than have been mentioned so far are writing works that combine serious examination of a society or human psyche with something more than relentless misery.

To see more of that in the marketplace (and in reviews, for instance) will require convincing editors, reviewers, critics and readers to leave their comfortable black-painted mental cubicles--and their concern for what the literary side will say--and go outside to the books they consider "non-serious".


Edited by sciborg2, 02 May 2012 - 08:13 PM.


#4 wolverine

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:08 PM

View Postsciborg2, on 02 May 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

I didn't understand her point TBH, and wish she'd given at least offered a minimal survey of the field.


I kind of agree.  Is there really that much of it that is just misery?  Can't she read what she wants and skip the misery?

#5 Sci-2

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:08 PM

View PostGrack21, on 02 May 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

Oh yeah, Elizabeth Moon weighs in. Whats her soultion, bomb the middle east?

heh, thanks to your post finally read this. I still think disinviting her from that con was childish/idiotic.

eta:

Quote

Can't she read what she wants and skip the misery?

Don't have a problem with her opinion, it's just impossible to argue for or against without some larger idea of what she's talking about. It's not criticizing something like grimdark specifically, but apparently SFF in its entirety.

Edited by sciborg2, 02 May 2012 - 10:10 PM.


#6 Grack21

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:39 PM

Well not to derail to much, but I think the reason she was uninvited from the con was not what she said, but that she turned off comments in her blog and basically said NOPE IM RIGHT NYA NYA, which kind of is in direct opposition to the spirit of said con.

#7 Errant Bard

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:41 PM

But hasn't SFF always been serious? I mean, it's not like Asimov, Gibson, PKD, Tolkien, Moorcock, Le Guin or Lieber are writing about joy, happiness and little puppies.

And now, it's not like we don't have people like Bujold, Harkaway, Adams, Pratchett, Lynch or Rajaniemi writing books that are widely recognized as some of the best stuff in genre despite their light mood.

#8 Sci-2

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:55 PM

View PostGrack21, on 02 May 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

Well not to derail to much, but I think the reason she was uninvited from the con was not what she said, but that she turned off comments in her blog and basically said NOPE IM RIGHT NYA NYA, which kind of is in direct opposition to the spirit of said con.

I dislike the idea that comments against religion - themselves filled with controversial statements/depictions/ideas about race/gender/sexuality - are equated with comments against sex/gender/sexuality.

It sort of speaks to the topic, which was DoA anyway due to Bear's lack of specifics, if "serious" = "anal retentive thought policing".  Savaging someone on the interwebs is very different from revoking guest-of-honor status of someone for their ideas about religions, which themselves are ideas.

I bet if if a Hindu Indian male named Sciborg2 wrote a long screed demanding Catholics police their own on molesting priests, homophobia, backwards policies in Africa w.r.t birth control, and so on I'd have kept my Guest of Honor status. That kind of double-think pisses me off.

#9 Larry.

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:03 AM

Oh, I dunno, Saajan.  I could so totally see myself pushing for a good ol' fashioned "burn the heretic at the stake" diatribe ;)

Point taken though.

As for Bear's article, if I didn't have other concerns pressing for my attention now, I could see doing a spoof of that epistolary style.  Sometimes, I get the impression that many who rail against "speculative fiction" in general just aren't all that well-read outside their own sphere of interest.  It's little different outside genre circles, I've noticed (doesn't mean I like it, but I have noticed similarities in style/approach/questionable content in other genres).

#10 Sci-2

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:14 AM

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Oh, I dunno, Saajan. I could so totally see myself pushing for a good ol' fashioned "burn the heretic at the stake" diatribe [img]../../../public/style_emoticons/default/wink.png[/img]

Ha! If you're going for a BBQ, I'd be pretty tasty at the moment, though rather high in calories.

Quote

Sometimes, I get the impression that many who rail against "speculative fiction" in general just aren't all that well-read outside their own sphere of interest. It's little different outside genre circles, I've noticed (doesn't mean I like it, but I have noticed similarities in style/approach/questionable content in other genres).

I see this as Elizabeth's Moon's point, that melancholy and darkness are pushed in other genres as well. I think Bakker noted this a few times, that "literature" had it's own expected plot lines and tropes.

I know I have yet to make it through the Piano Teacher. *shudder*

#11 kurokaze

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 01:04 AM

Yeah, I read one of Bear's books (Hammered) and don't intend to read any more because the mood just seemed relentlessly cheerless, alternating between bleak and neutral/hollow.

I think depressing/introspective moods just feel more meaningful even if they actually aren't, so it's much easier to think of them as Real Literature and the fun stuff as Entertainment or maybe That Worthless Trash I Would Never Read. Rare talents (Pratchett) are able to feel meaningful while being fun, but I've seen a surprising amount of people dismiss Bujold as just light entertainment.

I'm reminded of Hugo nom discussions the past two years, where I have not once seen a single legitimate criticism directed towards Mira Grant's work, but over and over and over people would say 'Well that's obviously a dud' or 'Didn't read, zombies' or 'What is this doing on the ballot? It's not Serious SF.' I don't think Deadline is award caliber either but it wasn't even getting to the point where people were judging it based on how good it was.

The books are out there, it's just that if you want a 'full range of human experiences' you have to actually start paying attention to the books with happy parts.

#12 Myshkin

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 01:18 AM

View Postsciborg2, on 03 May 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

I see this as Elizabeth's Moon's point, that melancholy and darkness are pushed in other genres as well. I think Bakker noted this a few times, that "literature" had it's own expected plot lines and tropes.

I hated that Bakker article.  Instead of making an argument for genre as literature, he made an argument for literature as genre.  Belittling both in the process.  This is what I meant when I said I thought SFF writers were becoming more pretentious.  It seems like every other day another SFF author blogs about the state of the genre, or why genre is important, or how "literature" is elitist, or what the genre absolutely needs to do so as to affect social change.  They rail against the literary snobs for disdaining genre, while at the same time they themselves make no effort to hide their disdain for "literature".

View Postsciborg2, on 03 May 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

I know I have yet to make it through the Piano Teacher. *shudder*

I loved The Piano Teacher.  It's a difficult read, but well worth it.

#13 Joe Abercrombie

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:56 AM

The really frustrating thing about Bear's attack is that it's too unfocused for me to know whether I should mount a rambling self-defence on my blog.

My work, after all, unifies the two noblest aspirations of speculative fiction - relentless human misery and jokes about poo.

I hardly know whether to smugly nod along or thump my desk in outrage these days unless I'm properly denounced by name.

I demand a proper explicit denouncement!

Edited by Joe Abercrombie, 03 May 2012 - 02:58 AM.


#14 Seli

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 04:06 AM

View PostJoe Abercrombie, on 03 May 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

The really frustrating thing about Bear's attack is that it's too unfocused for me to know whether I should mount a rambling self-defence on my blog.

My work, after all, unifies the two noblest aspirations of speculative fiction - relentless human misery and jokes about poo.

I hardly know whether to smugly nod along or thump my desk in outrage these days unless I'm properly denounced by name.

I demand a proper explicit denouncement!

Don't forget the sandwich. You do grim and levity at the same time, both the problem and the solution, so you can do both. But if that is only valid when Bear was serious I have no idea. You could aim for a rambling discussion.

Of course the same can be said for amongst others Steven Erikson, Glen Cook, or even John Ringo (for specific levels of humor/levity).

A nice naming more specific piece would have been easier on our brains.

Edited by Seli, 03 May 2012 - 04:07 AM.


#15 Galactus

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 05:51 AM

Quote

it's not like Asimov, Gibson, PKD, Tolkien, Moorcock, Le Guin or Lieber are writing about joy, happiness and little puppies.


Well, Asimov also wrote short-stories whose entire point was lame puns.

#16 Nukelavee

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 06:56 AM

And didn't those puns cause a feeling of grim misery when you realized that was the payoff for reading?

#17 Marcus Cicero

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 09:46 AM

View PostJoe Abercrombie, on 03 May 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

The really frustrating thing about Bear's attack is that it's too unfocused for me to know whether I should mount a rambling self-defence on my blog.

My work, after all, unifies the two noblest aspirations of speculative fiction - relentless human misery and jokes about poo.

I hardly know whether to smugly nod along or thump my desk in outrage these days unless I'm properly denounced by name.

I demand a proper explicit denouncement!
The fantastic sense of humor demonstrated in this post is why you shouldn't really be subject to her criticism. You succeed in finding a lot of humor between some of the grimmer moments. Also, after the ending of First Law, Best Served Cold and the Heroes ended on relatively positive notes. What comes to mind is
Spoiler

But yeah, Bear's article is too unspecific to take seriously. Spec Fic seems pretty diverse to me right now. If someone wants to read relentless grimdark, they can. If they don't, then there are enough books to slake their particular thirst.

#18 sologdin

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:53 AM

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At first, you seemed to handle the moral complexity well. You'd give me something like The Forever War or The Left Hand of Darkness, and we could talk about it for hours.

I mean, I sensed your ambivalence. But I had some ambivalence of my own. That's the thing about ambivalence—it's a kind of tension. And tension drives a narrative, right?

And I don't know if you got uncomfortable with the tension? Maybe you felt like you couldn't live in limbo anymore, but you'd seen too much to believe in happy endings anymore.

that's the key language for me.  cynicism may be the wrong term, at least as i understand it.


though there's no minimal survey, we might make a ledger:  which recent texts are both uncomfortable with tension in the tradition of leguin & haldeman and have seen too much to believe in happy endings?

#19 Mr. E

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 01:22 PM

If I may insert a parallel case in another medium, it seems to me that Bear is accusing spec fic of becoming like comic books in the late 80's early nineties, on the heels of Watchmen and TDKR. That is, hopelessly violent, dark, and EXTREEEEEME! without the quality to back it up. Basically, a whole slew or writers read Watchmen and TDKR, saw their popularity, and then entirely misunderstood what made those books good.

And so we got a whole decade of "grim and gritty."

TBH, I agree with Bear to an extent, but I would expand it to say that it encompasses most media at the moment. Things that are light and funny aren't "serious" and therefore aren't taken "seriously." But I think a lot of creators and misinterpreting "seriousness," and confusing it with "dark." See: Star Wars Episode III. Something can be serious without being "dark," and something can be "dark" and be absolute crap.

#20 Sci-2

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 01:24 PM

Quote

TBH, I agree with Bear to an extent, but I would expand it to say that it encompasses most media at the moment.

What works would you say fall under this charge though? That's what I think confuses people.