102 replies to this topic

[Dr. Pepper]

Apple Martini, on 24 May 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

@butterbumps and @Dr. Pepper — Might Aemon have been the one to haul dragonlore books to the Wall from the Citadel, if in fact that's where they came from?

Maester Aemon definitely could have brought many books up to the wall.  Perhaps even the Jade Compendium.  I don't think he brought Thomax's book as it was so old and damaged.  Unless it was already old and damaged when he brought it, but then what use would the book have served for the wall?  Was it just a cherished memoir of his family's legacy or did he oppose the opinions of the book?

butterbumps!, on 24 May 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

Yea- I think Aemon's the most likely source, but something about Alysanne's interest always nagged me.

I went back to reread what Bran said about Alysanne.  Of course, we don't get a firsthand account of what was said, but a lot of it seemed like typical motivational politician speak.  She called them brave, but did she actually witness them braving off against frightening foes?  Did they just tell her stories?  Or was it just a generic speech she gives to all areas she visited?  I could imagine her standing atop the stairs saying, "The Night's Watch is an order of the bravest men.  As my thanks for all of your bravery, I am donating 25 leagues of land, doubling the original gift."  Then a few days later she's standing atop the stairs at the Citadel saying, "The Citadel is an order of of the finest men.  As my thanks for all of your finery, I am donating Septon Barth's books for the vault."

Lykos, on 24 May 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

@butterbumps!, I´m even more intrigued, why half the court and six dragons were brought to Winterfell. A power demonstration? An experiment? And was the Nightfort really replaced with Deep Lake because

A poster of the forum said that it's the responsibility of the royal family to travel the realm in order to spread the cost of keeping them amongst all families.  I think that's why half the court came with them, the dragons probably as a display of power and also because they couldn't trust leaving them behind to in case someone tried to swoop them up for their own purposes.  I think maybe she requested the Nightfort be replaced because because of all the negative memories - Night's King, Rat Cook, Dany Flint.....

[Prince of the North]

Apple Martini, on 24 May 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

@butterbumps and @Dr. Pepper — Might Aemon have been the one to haul dragonlore books to the Wall from the Citadel, if in fact that's where they came from?

This is the theory that immediately jumps to mind for me.  Although I would throw LC Bloodraven in the mix as well.  I would love to have been a fly on the wall listening in on the possible conversations between Maester Aemon and Bloodraven!

butterbumps!, on 24 May 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

Yea- I think Aemon's the most likely source, but something about Alysanne's interest always nagged me.

Yes, and along with her interest in the Wall remember that Queen Alysanne was also quite close with a certain Septon Barth who wrote some of this dragon-related lore.  Her hubby, King Jaehaerys I "The Concilliator", even appointed Septon Barth as Hand.  Hmm...curiouser and curiouser...

Edited by Prince of the North, 24 May 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[Lykos]

@Prince of the North, I know the wiki says Septon Barth was Alysanne´s choice, but I couldn´t find evidence for that in the books.  If you know where I can find it, please point me.

[Cryler]

He was in the black cells or on his way to the Wall with Yoren and Arya before or at the time of the dragons hatching. So how can he be after the death of dragons book if there were no dragons at the time? And if he is how did he find out about them?

[Lykos]

@Cryler, that´s an interesting question.  The Faceless Men probably just wanted to be prepared, since they noticed increased activity of people who wanted to bring dragons back.  It depends very much on, in what conspiracies one believes to answer that question.

[Cryler]

I may be wrong but I thought Mel is the only one trying to bring back dragons? That can hardly be called increased activity compared to the Targs over the years.

[Apple Martini]

Cryler, on 24 May 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

He was in the black cells or on his way to the Wall with Yoren and Arya before or at the time of the dragons hatching. So how can he be after the death of dragons book if there were no dragons at the time? And if he is how did he find out about them?

How does anyone in Westeros find out anything from Essos, and vice versa? Perhaps he had a change in assignment.

Edited by Apple Martini, 24 May 2012 - 02:22 PM.

[Cryler]

I would assume ships and messengers.

[Dr. Pepper]

Did a systemic search for Alysanne and came across some points we've been discussing.

Re: The Nightfort and Alysanne:  In a Bran chapter it's said that the Nightfort was too big and costly for the Night's Watch to maintain so Alysanne donated her jewels and the King sent men for them to build a smaller castle near a lake.

Re: Travelling: In another Bran chapter it's told that Jaehaerys traveled all over the realm.  Bran doesn't say whether or not Alysanne went with him all these times, but his story told to him is mostly a story about the North.  I think she probably did travel with him most of the time but telling those stories either wasn't important to Northerners or just unmemorable to Bran.  I don't think there was any secret mission she had.  GRRM says that she was Jaehaerys' most trusted counselor and his right hand, so perhaps he trusted her to represent him for a visit to the wall.  Sort of like Prince Philip attends functions as the representative of Queen Elizabeth.

A lot of the history of Alysanne not related to her visit north comes from an SSM that was linked from the wiki:
http://www.westeros....M/Category/C91/

The SSM's are so disorganized so unless one spends hours going through them or gets lucky by guessing, it's hard to say whether or not what's written about her support of Barth is true.  Maester Pylos tells Davos that Jaehaerys himself found Barth in the Red Keep library but no mention of Alysanne's contribution.

Re: Who brought the books to the wall: One of the books Sam takes from the Castle Black library is a book by Septon Barth, which Aemon has Sam read to him.  I don't know if Unnatural History is Barth's only work, either way, Aemon knew it was there even though he was already going blind (shit, don't recall if that was book or TV).  He could have brought it, Bloodraven could have brought it, Bloodraven could have told Aemon that it was needed, or it just appeared.  I think it's probably most likely that Aemon collected certain books from the Citadel in secret to bring to the wall.  The question is, why?

@Cryler: Jaqen was in the black cells at the beginning of GOT, but we don't know what for.  It could have been part of a separate mission.  When he leaves Arya, he says that he's going far away and across the sea or something to that effect.  He could have returned to Braavos or some other outpost for the FM, received orders and then gone on to the Citadel.

Also, does anyone think the House of Black & White have a glass candle?  I want to say they do because I thought I remembered the kindly man saying something about it, but I'm probably just making that up.  Still, it seems like they would be the type of organization to have a glass candle.  There's one in Qarth, a few at the Citadel...why not one in Braavos.  If that's the case, they could have communicated with Jaqen through it while he was still in Westeros.

[Lord Damian]

I keep thinking that Sam said there had to be more books that were most likely kept deeper or in other vaults at Castle Black. He did not have enough time to get to them all. The Citidel certainly has copies and I would think there is more at say, the Nightfort. That may be the oldest of the Castles. Dragonstone seems to have only dragonglass, which in itself is needed as well.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I know some of you are looking at how certain books ended up at the Wall and I think it makes sense that Aemon, Bloodraven or Alysanne could have brought them because some of those books may not have been so rare at the time. ( Targaryens were not so rare at the time either )  

I'm curious where "Maester Thomax’s Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons" might end up also. I think it's possible this book will end up with Daenerys and I wondered if others thought this or if I have information mixed up instead.

Quhuru Mo the captain of the Cinnamon Wind has met Daenerys and her dragons in Qarth and she told him to come to see her again for a reward for telling her that King Robert is dead.Then the Cinnamon Wind is the ship Sam and company take from Braavos to Old Town and the payment for passage was the books Sam brought with them, one being "Dragonkin". Now Marwyn the Mage is takingpassage on the Cinnamon Wind to Daenerys. Also I could have sworn that I read that either Captain Quhuru Mo, Kojja Mo or Xhondo was friends with Marwyn but that could have just been speculation on the forum.

I know Quhuru Mo said he would sell the books to the grey maesters but that particular book has in the name "a History of House Targaryen" so the captain may have thought he might do better to bring the book to Daenerys and he is taking Marwyn to her, or Marwyn may have even been the one the captain took the books too and I would think Marwyn would want it for Daenerys. Daenerys might actually learn something! But this has all been OT and it also brings me back OT.

If the Faceless Men are interested in dragons and Jaqen is looking in the Citadel for something dragon related then I would think the FM would want an agent close to Daenerys and her dragons, but who could it be or who will it be? This brings me back to what is Jaqen/Pate looking for at the Citadel becuase if his concern is dragons then he had a great chance to get close to them with Marwyn leaving. Pate/Jaqen does not seemed concerned by staying behind at all so there must be something of great import for Jaqen/Pate to find or do, especially if dragons are the concern, for Jaqen/Pate not to try and go with Marwyn. Just more questions!

[AryasPinCushion]

summer_stark, on 24 May 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:

I find the whole Jaqen dragon theory to be a bit out there. First, how does everyone account for the fact that Jaqen was already in KL and most likely in the black cells/on his way to the wall already when dany birthed her dragons? No matter the timeline difference b/t danys story and kl stories, we know that illyrio comes to kl to chat, we know the timing matches up later with the poisoning plot, so logically the timelines are too close to allow Jaqen to have been sent to KL or the wall before the dragons were born. Therefore, his being in KL had nothing to do with dragons. I don't buy that he's rogue either since he offered to take arya w/him. Tho he did then go to oldtown. It's possible that he went back and got a new assignment, but that in no way answers his purpose in KL.

Or how he got caught and ended up on a transport with Arya bound for the wall. Unless it was by design that he ran into her.

[Prince of the North]

Lykos, on 24 May 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

@Prince of the North, I know the wiki says Septon Barth was Alysanne´s choice, but I couldn´t find evidence for that in the books. If you know where I can find it, please point me.

Lykos,

I just edited my post a bit.  I had also read that Queen Alysanne was the one to get King Jaehaerys I (her husband) to appoint Septon Barth as Hand in the wiki.  But when I asked the originator of the wiki the same question you ask above he said that it wasn't quite right (and now I can't seem to delete that little incorrect detail from my memory bank).  So, I think we can be reasonably sure that Queen Alysanne and Septon Barth knew each other, maybe even were friends, etc., but we can't say she was the one who got Septon Barth his position as Hand of the King.

Edited by Prince of the North, 24 May 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[summer_stark]

AryasPinCushion, on 24 May 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

Or how he got caught and ended up on a transport with Arya bound for the wall. Unless it was by design that he ran into her.

i know, right?  i dont think it could've been in order to get to arya since he had no way of knowing that yoren was going to see her and decide to take her to the wall.  unless you mean that after yoren takes her, jaqen somehow sees it or notices it and gets himself caught to he can go with her...i might buy that actually.  i am dying to know wtf he was doing 1) in KL at all; and 2) how/why he got caught -- i.e., whether or not it was intentional, which it seems like it must be -- but then again, he wasn't able to save himself, so he really mustve given himself over to the project, whatever it was, or he didn't intend to stay locked up like that.  i don't understand why he'd be put in the cage either -- that's reserved for the rorge/biter types -- so what did they know about him and what he did that we don't?

[AryasPinCushion]

summer_stark, on 24 May 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

i know, right? i dont think it could've been in order to get to arya since he had no way of knowing that yoren was going to see her and decide to take her to the wall. unless you mean that after yoren takes her, jaqen somehow sees it or notices it and gets himself caught to he can go with her...i might buy that actually. i am dying to know wtf he was doing 1) in KL at all; and 2) how/why he got caught -- i.e., whether or not it was intentional, which it seems like it must be -- but then again, he wasn't able to save himself, so he really mustve given himself over to the project, whatever it was, or he didn't intend to stay locked up like that. i don't understand why he'd be put in the cage either -- that's reserved for the rorge/biter types -- so what did they know about him and what he did that we don't?

I just can't believe that a man as highly skilled as him, able to change his face at will, could be held captive, or be caught for that matter, unless he wants to stay/be caught for whatever reason. Afterall, he escaped easily enough when Arya forced him to help her and her friends.

[AryasPinCushion]

summer_stark, on 24 May 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

i know, right? i dont think it could've been in order to get to arya since he had no way of knowing that yoren was going to see her and decide to take her to the wall. unless you mean that after yoren takes her, jaqen somehow sees it or notices it and gets himself caught to he can go with her...i might buy that actually. i am dying to know wtf he was doing 1) in KL at all; and 2) how/why he got caught -- i.e., whether or not it was intentional, which it seems like it must be -- but then again, he wasn't able to save himself, so he really mustve given himself over to the project, whatever it was, or he didn't intend to stay locked up like that. i don't understand why he'd be put in the cage either -- that's reserved for the rorge/biter types -- so what did they know about him and what he did that we don't?

You know what? What if he was simply on a recruitment run for the House of Black and White? To find new candidates for the Faceless Men? I doubt that they go out preaching to the masses: "Come to the House of Black and White!!! Become a FM and help the Many Faced God to spread the Gift to others!!!"
They have to find fresh blood somewhere. And it takes a certain type of person. So when in Westeros where do you find those with the right mindset and desperation to become übercool assassins? The Wall. They are already convicted and have nothing left to lose and nowhere left to go but north. Often times they are killers. He must have sensed Arya's raw potential. And stuck around Harrenhall to observe her some more.

[summer_stark]

AryasPinCushion, on 24 May 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

I just can't believe that a man as highly skilled as him, able to change his face at will, could be held captive, or be caught for that matter, unless he wants to stay/be caught for whatever reason. Afterall, he escaped easily enough when Arya forced him to help her and her friends.

totally -- i couldn't really imagine it being unintentional . . . but i was just thinking about how it played out and now i wonder -- he was going to die in that cage if she didn't save him.  why would he put himself in such a vulnerable position?  you'd think if he meant to get caught, he'd make it so he was just with the regular prisoners so he wouldn't get stuck in the cage in the first place.  and unless he like put himself in the cage and no one noticed, he had to have done something to get him caught and it had to have been bad enough for him to be in the cage.

the more i think about it the more confused i get about the whole scenario.  it's plausible that he went to harrenhal to pay his debt back to arya -- but it seems strange that he would go to the wall in a cage if he didn't have to.  and, he obviously wasn't bound for the wall b/c arya wanted him to take her north, but he said he wasn't going that way.

it's just a whole bunch of huge question marks, because like you say, it also seems implausible that jaqen could get caught and thrown if a cage if that wasn't his intention.  like some gold cloaks are gonna get the drop on jaqen?!?  i seriously doubt it.  so what then? he intends to get put into the black cells -- so he does something extreme to make sure he gets put there and his plan goes awry when yoren needs recruits?  maybe he was there to save ned (ok i totally just made that up w/o any evidence or anything to imply that could be true whatsoever), but probably not.  why else would he intend to get thrown into the black cells?  just trying to get into the red keep?  doubt it, since he could've gotten in a bunch of easier ways -- he is a FM after all -- and he did in all likelihood infiltrate the citadel w/pate's face, so why not do the same in the red keep?

so, if we assume he meant to get put in the black cells, which seems more plausible than pretty much any other theory about jaqen being there, then why was he there?  the only other theory i have of him intentionally being in that cage bound for the wall is that he snuck in after they put rorge and biter in the cage (though it seems like someone would notice that there was now a 3rd guy in there).

[summer_stark]

AryasPinCushion, on 24 May 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

You know what? What if he was simply on a recruitment run for the House of Black and White? To find new candidates for the Faceless Men? I doubt that they go out preaching to the masses: "Come to the House of Black and White!!! Become a FM and help the Many Faced God to spread the Gift to others!!!"
They have to find fresh blood somewhere. And it takes a certain type of person. So when in Westeros where do you find those with the right mindset and desperation to become übercool assassins? The Wall. They are already convicted and have nothing left to lose and nowhere left to go but north. Often times they are killers. He must have sensed Arya's raw potential. And stuck around Harrenhall to observe her some more.

hmm... jaqen is the yoren of the faceless men!  i kind of love it.  lol.  he's just so awesome.  the only thing is, what would he be doing in KL at all? -- why not just go to the wall?  it would be out of the way to go from braavos to KL to the wall -- i think if you change the wall to the dungeons, then it could work -- same principles apply.  then again, i like to think that he has more purpose than recruiter.  as much as i love yoren, and being a recruiter would be nice for someone stuck at the wall, being a FM in charge of recruiting kind of seems like a desk job for a cop, ya know?

plus, i think of the FM as pickier than that.  they're such world renowned bad asses that i like to think of them as an elite force who take the best cold blooded assassins in the world -- and if you're getting caught, you're probably not a great assassin -- especially not one who could make deaths seem like an accident.  then again, this leads back to why was jaqen locked up if he was so great -- which of course leads to the generally accepted answer: because he meant to get caught.  circles and more circles.  oh jaqen, how you mystify us

Edited by summer_stark, 24 May 2012 - 06:40 PM.

[AryasPinCushion]

summer_stark, on 24 May 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

  but it seems strange that he would go to the wall in a cage if he didn't have to.

Perhaps it seemed more comfortable to him then walking all the way?

Quote

and, he obviously wasn't bound for the wall b/c arya wanted him to take her north, but he said he wasn't going that way.  

Which seems to me he didn't plan on staying around. Which makes my recruitment run theory a bit more plausible and my theory about him letting himself getting caught.

[summer_stark]

AryasPinCushion, on 24 May 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

Perhaps it seemed more comfortable to him then walking all the way?