"Her small breasts moved freely..."

[Guest]

Recently ASOIAF was mentioned in of all places, a Cracked article titled "5 Ways Modern Men are Trained to Hate Women" (yikes) In one of the examples the author, David Wong, uses an excerpt from a Dany chapter to make his point about how men find it difficult to imagine what it's like to be a woman. He says,

Right now I'm reading a book from mega-selling fantasy author George R. R. Martin. The following is a passage where he is writing from the point of view of a woman -- always a tough thing for men to do. The girl is on her way to a key confrontation, and the narrator describes it thusly:

"When she went to the stables, she wore faded sandsilk pants and woven grass sandals. Her small breasts moved freely beneath a painted Dothraki vest ..."

That's written from the woman's point of view. Yes, when a male writes a female, he assumes that she spends every moment thinking about the size of her breasts and what they are doing. "Janet walked her boobs across the city square. 'I can see them staring at my boobs,' she thought, boobily." He assumes that women are thinking of themselves the same way we think of them.

To avoid a gender flame war, let's start with the assumption that GRRM already has the necessary attitude to avoid huge sexist blunders that derail lesser authors. He writes using a compassionate, empathetic sensitivity toward women that all readers can appreciate. Where he could have fucked up big time, he pulls it off with aplomb.

Despite this, do you think that the description above is a legitimate example of a small blunder/slight misunderstanding about the way women act, move, think, and feel?

My thoughts: so it's a throw-away line, but it's the accumulation of these little things throughout all of fiction that is worrisome. The relentless use of women's appendages in mundane descriptions (with no description of men's penises moving freely in their clothes as they walk) hint that the female characters are objects to be looked at. Whether written or visual signals (as in ads), the effect is the same.

Now, here's where I start to think about how this affects the relationship between writer and reader. Might this slight objectification affect Dany's characterization as a whole? GRRM is not private about his lust for her. It makes me wonder if creating a woman out of your own sexual desires inherently stunts a character in some way (not sure how, or if it even does). In the inverse I'm reminded of one of the gods from NK Jemisin's Hundred Thousand Kingdoms who has all the qualities of a Trent Reznor/Brandon Lee fanfic female masturbation fantasy. And that character was...really crappy (honestly Dany is much better written, so maybe this isn't a productive comparison)

In contrast fantasy author Catherynne Valente's female characters from the Prester John novels are monstrous. Hideous. Abject. Not beautiful, sexy, or desirable. Not even human, in fact. But you want to know them, to be around them, to be inside their heads, and explore the world with them. This is the variable that causes me to endear myself to GRRM's characters: the less I read them as his own personal "love match," the more I love them.

Caveat:

Take the source article with a grain of salt. It's Cracked's new attempt at what I call brofeminism, which is Maxim magazine with a shiny new coat of feminist sensitivity. If you would like more critiques of the article in general, see here.

Avoid discussing other aspects of the article; only talk about how it relates to the series.

[Dr. Pepper]

I think it's quite hilarious that a man is bashing another man for writing what a woman would think about her own boobs. How the hell does David Wong know what boob thoughts run through a woman's head? Don't men think about their penises?

As a woman, I'm sometimes pretty conscious of my breasts and how they sit and move under my clothing. I think the description GRRM uses is pretty realistic.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

It's interesting. I never really thought about it that way. I guess it comes down to the narrator. It's a third person omniscient? narrative, which means GRRM is describing what he, or the narrator sees. We get an insight into the characters thoughts, but it isn't as if he's writing from Dany's perspective. If it was Dany writing "my breasts moved freely" etc, I would agree. Strangely I always thought of the narrator as male, and read it as if watching a scene.

[kissdbyfire]

And the bit he quotes is descriptive, not Dany's own thoughts....

[DirePenguin]

There are things that really urks me in the book. For example, the one Dany was in Vaes Dothrak after eating the horse heart. He wrote about the crone's nipple dangling freely in their robes or something ... it was wordless for a moment there.

[Winter's Knight]

Missed your posts, where have you been?

That sentence actually made me stop reading and eyeroll. Just like that pointless Irri assisted masturbation. And the strange wording of her last night with Daario:

That night Daario had her every way a man can have a woman, and she gave herself to him willingly.

[Winter's Knight]

And the bit he quotes is descriptive, not Dany's own thoughts....

It's interesting. I never really thought about it that way. I guess it comes down to the narrator. It's a third person omniscient? narrative, which means GRRM is describing what he, or the narrator sees. We get an insight into the characters thoughts, but it isn't as if he's writing from Dany's perspective. If it was Dany writing "my breasts moved freely" etc, I would agree. Strangely I always thought of the narrator as male, and read it as if watching a scene.

You can't have an unreliable narrator and an impartial third person limited.

[Ser Lepus]

In the inverse I'm reminded of one of the gods from NK Jemisin's Hundred Thousand Kingdoms who has all the qualities of a Trent Reznor/Brandon Lee fanfic female masturbation fantasy. And that character was...really crappy (honestly Dany is much better written, so maybe this isn't a productive comparison)

Out of curiosity, that god, is it sort of "sparky vampire" deity, or what?

[All Men Must Rhyme]

You can't have an unreliable narrator and an impartial third person limited.

Yeah, I'm not really sure what to class it as. It's omniscient in the sense that it hears characters thoughts, but unreliable in that it doesn't tell us exactly what's going on. It's like, if we hear what the character is thinking, that character is planning something. The character, and therefore the narrator, will know what that is, but the reader doesn't. My point was more that it comes from the narrator, not Daenarys. Effectively genderless, though I always imagined it to be male, probably because I am.

[Winter's Knight]

Yeah, I'm not really sure what to class it as. It's omniscient in the sense that it hears characters thoughts, but unreliable in that it doesn't tell us exactly what's going on. It's like, if we hear what the character is thinking, that character is planning something. The character, and therefore the narrator, will know what that is, but the reader doesn't. My point was more that it comes from the narrator, not Daenarys. Effectively genderless, though I always imagined it to be male, probably because I am.

You don't see that with male characters though-Tyrion rolled over in bed, his small cock slick with sweat as it slapped against his naked thigh.

A narrator either describes everything-and thus we should thus not have an UnKiss-or they are bound to the character's thoughts-and Dany does not comment on how her "small" breasts move.

[Hear Us Roar]

Women are conscious about their breasts. The "writer" was just trying to stir something up or be controversial.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

You don't see that with male characters though-Tyrion rolled over in bed, his small cock slick with sweat as it slapped against his naked thigh.

A narrator either describes everything-and thus we should thus not have an UnKiss-or they are bound to the character's thoughts-and Dany does not comment on how her "small" breasts move.

I agree, but my point was more in regards to the writer saying that GRRM doesn't know how women think; It isn't coming from a female perspective, but from a narrator, so how is that relevant? You may have a problem with how George narrates, but the dialogue and inner monologue involving female characters isn't like this. You can claim his narrator is male minded, if you like. He is imagining Daenarys' breasts as he writes, and not Tyrion's cock for example, because he's a heterosexual male.

[Machinist]

i facepalm'd when i discovered this thread

[Lyanna Stark]

He is imagining Daenarys' breasts as he writes, and not Tyrion's cock for example, because he's a heterosexual male.

Male gaze. Google it.

In general, the female characters in ASOIAF are well crafted and all have personalities of their own, but there are occasions of slip up, I think especially when it relates to Dany. Her Stockholm syndrome marriage to Drogo, some of the descriptions of her an the gratuitous and silly lesbian sex scenes.

[Fragile Bird]

I have to agree with Jcooper. In the end you have a male writer narrating. Dany doesn't say "she felt her small breasts moving freely beneath a painted Dothraki vest", GRRM doesn't attempt to say she is thinking about her boobs in the manner David Wong suggests. He is presenting a scene, though, from his viewpoint, which includes an appreciation of Dany's body, like it or not. And I have read numerous novels written by women that have given appreciative descriptions of men's bodies, the difference being women don't generally describe penises swinging in pants the way men describe women's breasts under shirts. They do signal sexual appreciation of male physical beauty by describing their ideal man (the way GRRM loves Dany); men are "graceful", "handsome" "rugged", have "muscles rippling under their shirts", ahh, gaaag, I'm not going to get into Harlequin descriptions.

Sometimes female characters even eye the bulges in men's pants. Do men walk down the street conscious of women eyeing the bulges in their pants? Damned if I know. But I do know I'm conscious of my breasts and my body shape in the summer, especially if I walk past a construction site. Damn those ogling bastards!

ETA: and I agree with Lyanna Stark; good cross reference.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

Male gaze. Google it.

In general, the female characters in ASOIAF are well crafted and all have personalities of their own, but there are occasions of slip up, I think especially when it relates to Dany. Her Stockholm syndrome marriage to Drogo, some of the descriptions of her an the gratuitous and silly lesbian sex scenes.

Yeah, pretty much.

[Guest]

I think it's quite hilarious that a man is bashing another man for writing what a woman would think about her own boobs. How the hell does David Wong know what boob thoughts run through a woman's head?

Ha, great point about the silliness of it all. Its like a comedy of errors.

As a woman, I'm sometimes pretty conscious of my breasts and how they sit and move under my clothing. I think the description GRRM uses is pretty realistic

Hmm, I don't know. Was he establishing Dany being conscious about her own body? To me I thought it was the narrator trying to paint a picture of Dany.

Meanwhile, the story of my boobs while I'm walking is usually something anxiety-inducing like "will people notice I'm not wearing a bra? I really don't want to be leered at by men today." I really don't think about how they move when I'm walking,though.

There are things that really urks me in the book. For example, the one Dany was in Vaes Dothrak after eating the horse heart. He wrote about the crone's nipple dangling freely in their robes or something ... it was wordless for a moment there.

Gods, the nipple fetish. It's really over the top.

Missed your posts, where have you been?

Awww thanks... :grouphug: I've been posting on the TV show forums. Kinda have to separate both in my head or I get confused.

Out of curiosity, that god, is it sort of "sparky vampire" deity, or what?

He's like a "Night Lord" or some such cliche; he's trying to be Neil Gaiman's Sandman but not near as iconic.

A narrator either describes everything-and thus we should thus not have an UnKiss-or they are bound to the character's thoughts-and Dany does not comment on how her "small" breasts move.

Right, she's not thinking "hmmm, this dress is really comfortable around the breast area." But what do you mean an "unkiss"?

[Hear Us Roar]

Male gaze. Google it.

In general, the female characters in ASOIAF are well crafted and all have personalities of their own, but there are occasions of slip up, I think especially when it relates to Dany. Her Stockholm syndrome marriage to Drogo, some of the descriptions of her an the gratuitous and silly lesbian sex scenes.

Well most women and men are 'sold' in the books. Kids are being traded in marriages left and right so i don't think it is impossible for love to flourish after an arranged marriage being the norm. What is wrong with lesbian scenes? People in this books are not suppressed in their sexuality.

[Guest]

i facepalm'd when i discovered this thread

Fantastic, you are embarrassed by this thread the same way I am embarrassed when I read descriptions of Dany. I'm thrilled we can agree.

[Winter's Knight]

Right, she's not thinking "hmmm, this dress is really comfortable around the breast area." But what do you mean an "unkiss"?

The Sandor kiss that didn't happen but Sansa remembers happening.