116 replies to this topic

[Lord Ben]

Accusing people of sexism.

Comparing criticisms of the story to RL moral values.

If you think Sansa replacing lady with a dog/hound is a hint they are tied together and he'll be around for her you want a disney ending.

Advocating for or expecting the survival of any character means you can't accept character deaths.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I thought someone upthread mentioned this already, but when I went to look for the quote I couldn't find it.  So.  We all discuss the characters like they were real people; it's a convenient shorthand.  But it bears remembering that these aren't real people.  Not real.  Not.  Real.  No actual human beings were harmed in the making of anyone's opinion.

Edited by Sand Snake No. 9, 03 May 2012 - 07:05 PM.

[Thunderfist]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 03 May 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

I thought someone upthread mentioned this already, but when I went to look for the quote I couldn't find it.  So.  We all discuss the characters like they were real people; it's a convenient shorthand.  But it bears remembering that these aren't real people.  Not real.  Not.  Real.  No actual human beings in the making of anyone's opinion.

But ... I see them on my TV every week ... they are real

[jarl the climber]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 03 May 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

I thought someone upthread mentioned this already, but when I went to look for the quote I couldn't find it.  So.  We all discuss the characters like they were real people; it's a convenient shorthand.  But it bears remembering that these aren't real people.  Not real.  Not.  Real.  No actual human beings in the making of anyone's opinion.

I agree, thats why I back off when a conversation gets to heated.

[butterbumps!]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 03 May 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

I thought someone upthread mentioned this already, but when I went to look for the quote I couldn't find it.  So.  We all discuss the characters like they were real people; it's a convenient shorthand.  But it bears remembering that these aren't real people.  Not real.  Not.  Real.  No actual human beings in the making of anyone's opinion.

This.  After having been told that the only explanation for why I did not sympathize with a certain character must mean that I have no human sympathy whatsoever.  I like heated conversations, sure, but the ad hominem attacks are just unnecessary.

[Frank the bunny]

Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark are Jon Snow's parents. *wipes forehead*

[Jem]

I like "insidery jargon". It makes me feel part of the gang.

Come on, give me a break! I'm never on the inside, I never get to use insidery jargon. I'm usually on the outside looking in.

Besides, using abbreviations makes me feel more intimately acquainted with the text. These books are my good friends. Calling the series "A Song of Ice and Fire" instead of "ASOIAF" is the equivalent of calling my best friend "Mrs Robinson" or my husband "Mr Campbell" instead of using their first names - it is too formal and alienating. I like to be on intimate, first name terms with my friends as I like to be on intimate, "insidery jargon" terms with these books.

[jlk7e]

Why does everyone create unnecessarily long or wildly awkward alternatives for "If R+L=J is true" like "If Rhaegar and Lyanna begat Jon is true..." or "assuming the theory that states that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark is correct." ?

It isn't actually that hard to say "assuming Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son" or "if Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son".

[Arkash]

Jayce, on 03 May 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

ACoK bothers me, but thats because my mind hits the gutter every so often.

So I am not the only one...

Acok has a thirst...

Okay, I'm already far away.... =D

[butterbumps!]

jlk7e, on 03 May 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Why does everyone create unnecessarily long or wildly awkward alternatives for "If R+L=J is true" like "If Rhaegar and Lyanna begat Jon is true..." or "assuming the theory that states that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark is correct." ?

It isn't actually that hard to say "assuming Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son" or "if Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son".

Begat was honestly the first thing that I thought of because I was trying to translate R+L=J directly.  But duly noted.  I still hate typing the word Rhaegar.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

butterbumps!, on 03 May 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

Begat was honestly the first thing that I thought of because I was trying to translate R+L=J directly.  But duly noted.  I still hate typing the word Rhaegar.

Fight for your use of begat! It's a great word.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Apple Martini, on 03 May 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

I know a lot of people get annoyed or confused by the random alphabet soup. KotLT, PtwP, SwMtW, etc.

Yeah, all that bothers me so much that I have started to expand the DumBaLPHabeTsOup stuff when I quote other people’s postings.  (Not this one, of course, or it defeats purpose.)

I do keep an evergrowing alphabetized list of these, along with their  expansions.

The only abbreviations I like are shortening up the names of the novels to their first main noun, so Game, Clash, Storm, Feast, Dance, Winds, Dream. I find those infinitely more readable than the aNoP kind of crap, which always always always slows me down when reading.

I’m also not fond of all the fanfic in-words.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Alkion, on 03 May 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

I hate pretty much all of the "shipper" terms, even the term "shipper" itself. SanSan, JorDan, any of the like. Hate them all. They just seem cutesie and childish to me.

God yes!  Hate hate hate. I feel like I’m being held prisoner in a slumber party filled with dozens of 12–14 year olds, mostly either girls or reasonable facsimiles thereof.

That said, the devil’s advocate in me says that if the people doing the talking are actually themselves cutesie and childish, is there some reason they shouldn’t express that in public discourse?

Well yes, yes there is.

[Apple Martini]

CrypticWeirwood, on 03 May 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

Yeah, all that bothers me so much that I have started to expand the DumBaLPHabeTsOup stuff when I quote other people’s postings.  (Not this one, of course, or it defeats purpose.)

I do keep an evergrowing alphabetized list of these, along with their  expansions.

The only abbreviations I like are shortening up the names of the novels to their first main noun, so Game, Clash, Storm, Feast, Dance, Winds, Dream. I find those infinitely more readable than the aNoP kind of crap, which always always always slows me down when reading.

I’m also not fond of all the fanfic in-words.

Agreed on how to refer to the novels. The only one I even sometimes shorten is ADWD, but only because it's pretty easy to type out. I very rarely, if ever, use aGoT, aCoK, ASoS, or aFfC. I'll say Game, Clash, Storm or Feast.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Castel, on 03 May 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

I dislike Faegon, because I've seen no proof to justify the certainty that he's fake.

Ding ding ding!  So very annoying, even if he isn’t Rhaegar’s son.

I also find scare-quotes to be insulting, like the people write “Aegon” to cast aspersions on his parentage.  It’s insulting.  His name is Aegon, no matter who is actual parents might be.  Let’s start calling people “Jon”, eh? And “Varys”.  And “Arry” and “Nan” and  “Weasel” and “Cat” and and and and and and and. And “Arstan”.  And “Coldhands”. “Bloodraven”. And all the rest of them.  Skip the bloody scare-quotes!

While I’m on it, I hate the unCat crap, too.  She’s Cat, Catelyn, Catelyn Tully, Catelyn Stark, Lady Catelyn, Lady Stark, Lady Stoneheart, or Stoneheart.  But she is not “un-ANYTHING”!

[Sand Snake No. 9]

jarl the climber, on 03 May 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

I agree, thats why I back off when a conversation gets to heated.

Clearly, I should learn by your example.

[CrypticWeirwood]

butterbumps!, on 03 May 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

Begat was honestly the first thing that I thought of because I was trying to translate R+L=J directly.  But duly noted.  I still hate typing the word Rhaegar.

Why in the world would you hate typing the word Rhaegar?   Is it perhaps because it gives your left hand a workout, with only one of its letters typed using the right hand?

If so, would Reggie work better for you? ;-}

[Noimporta]

Other people sure do suck.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Howling4Reed, on 03 May 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

I'm ok with the use of the abbreviations they are easy to figure out with a little work.

And that is the whole problem.  Let’s say that your posting is read by a thousand people. That “little bit of work” just got magnified by a factor of a thousand.

It’s selfish and inconsiderate to the point of being rude to value your own time so much that saving a keystroke here and there is considered a morally acceptable alternative to making thousands of people all work “a little bit extra” to figure out what the devil you meant.  Why is the writer so damned important that it’s ok for them to put all those people out?

Let us, for the sake of the argument, assume that George Martin is a better writer than most of us here. Ok, that might not always be true, but it usually is.  He’s certainly more accomplished that virtually all of us.  Surely if there are any amongst us with the right to cut some corners for his own benefit and to everyone else’s inconvenience, he’s the one to deserve to do that.

So, how many acronyms and initialisms does Martin use in A Song of Ice and Fire?  Anybody know?









  









The answer is absolutely none.  Zero. Zilcho.  He does not do it.  EVER!

If even Martin does not do so, who are you to waste other people’s time?

Follow Martin’s example: go thou and do likewise.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood, 03 May 2012 - 07:48 PM.

[Castel]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 03 May 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

I thought someone upthread mentioned this already, but when I went to look for the quote I couldn't find it.  So.  We all discuss the characters like they were real people; it's a convenient shorthand.  But it bears remembering that these aren't real people.  Not real.  Not.  Real.  No actual human beings were harmed in the making of anyone's opinion.

Something slightly related to this that should be cut out of the discourse completely. The "you're taking this too seriously/you need to chill/calm down" or "you guys have too much time on your hands" guilt trip. If a conversation has gotten too intense for you, take a break or leave it completely. Don't try to guilt other people because you don't have a logical answer. That was one thing Cracked got right, people will always use that argument when they're losing, and it's childish. Especially when you consider that that same person getting on you for hating Dany/Cat/Jon/Whoever, is probably the same person going around baying for Ramsay's/Tywin's/ Walder Frey's blood.

Edited by Castel, 03 May 2012 - 07:47 PM.