224 replies to this topic

[Gaius Martell]

Then the Rhaegar Lyanna thing is a DAMN good red herring.

There has to be a good reason why Ned never told Jon who his mother was.  Perhaps it would still by Lyanna, and we get ANOTHER family trying to be the Targaryens.

[Manderly is Boss]

Silver Spearwife, on 03 May 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

Well, he could've just been saying that because it's not all that common for bastards to be raised so closely to their trueborn siblings (not unheard of, just...not common). Bastards and trueborn siblings usually don't grow up like brothers. (Playing devil's advocate, by the way - I believe that that line is Martin deliberately tantalizing the R+L=J supporters).

That does seem quite evident in some Noble houses, Ramsay Snow being raised by his mother and never meeting Roose until adolescence is a good case. It just seems too deliberate a choice of phrasing, "close AS brothers", for me to ignore. Also, the fact Eddard worded it that way when he thought no one would ever here this conversation only adds more to suspicion. It would be an epic troll by George Martin if he somehow found a way to explain Jon as Ned's son after all these hints.

[Not A Lannister]

Howling4Reed, on 03 May 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

Well if Ned were the father and Lyanna was his mother

That's a little to *shivers* for my liking, plus I think Ned's love for Lyanna leams more towards Tyrell brother-sister love, rather then Targaryen* brother-sister love.....If you get what I mean

[Apple Martini]

If Lyanna is Jon's mother, Ned can't be his father, and vice versa. Lyanna was "missing" when Jon was conceived, whoever it was who conceived him.

[Manderly is Boss]

Trish, on 04 May 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

That's a little to *shivers* for my liking, plus I think Ned's love for Lyanna leams more towards Tyrell brother-sister love, rather then Targaryen* brother-sister love.....If you get what I mean

I here it's the new craze in Westeros, Lannisters are getting into it and they're hot property right now..

[Eira Seren]

if not R+L, then whoever is jon's mother had better be good enough to have me dancing around waving my book yelling "yes! YESYESYESYESYESYES!" the way i did when joff finally got it.  otherwise will be a total letdown.

[etu]

Eira Seren, on 04 May 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

if not R+L, then whoever is jon's mother had better be good enough to have me dancing around waving my book yelling "yes! YESYESYESYESYESYES!" the way i did when joff finally got it.  otherwise will be a total letdown.

This, a thousand times.

[NomadicDirewolf]

i think that this actually a possibility, since if martin was planning for r+l=j to be true in the first place now everyone has realised then he'll probably change it to something or put some additional information which we didnt see coming

[Natalie_S]

I still think Jon is Ned's son.
When Ned sees Robert's bastard daughter he thinks about Jon, feels guilty and goes "if conceiving bastards is a bad thing, why did the gods put lust in a man's body?" or something like that. If Jon wasn't his son, this would be a pretty weird thought.
Why should he feel guilty all the time?
And, by the way, why did he never say anything to Catelyn, and spare her 15 years of bitter resentment?

[Dr. Pepper]

NomadicDirewolf, on 04 May 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

i think that this actually a possibility, since if martin was planning for r+l=j to be true in the first place now everyone has realised then he'll probably change it to something or put some additional information which we didnt see coming

Changing a plot line just because some readers figured out the mystery is pretty effing stupid.  A mystery (in literature) is meant to be solved.  If GRRM revealed a mother that had not even single breadcrumb leading to her, it would make him a very poor and petty writer.  He's neither.

[Manderly is Boss]

Natalie_S, on 04 May 2012 - 01:57 AM, said:

And, by the way, why did he never say anything to Catelyn, and spare her 15 years of bitter resentment?

That promise Lyanna exacted from Ned on her death bed probably went something along the lines of "Promise me you never tell anyone of this, if word got out people (Robert, Tywin etc) would want Jon dead, never tell anyone his true identity". And we know Ned Stark takes his oaths seriously, the honourable old fool.

[Catastrophe]

Apple Martini, on 03 May 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

If it is Ned — and I don't believe it is, but I'll play along — then Jon's mother better be the jaw-dropper of all jaw-droppers. And not like, Wylla or a fisherman's daughter or even Ashara. Like, Ned went back in time and fathered Jon on his own grandmother. I can't think of many, if any, "mother reveals" that would be boat-rocking enough to make sense in the face of all the absurd secrecy.

Why would Ned and Ashara having a child be so hard for you to believe? Ashara was pregnant with a baby that supposedly died stillborn, so it seems pretty likely that she was having an affair with Ned, even if R+L=J does turn out to be true. (No, I don't buy into the theory that she slept with Brandon, it doesn't fit what we know about their interactions.) I also think that her baby might've actually survived... I wonder if there are any other characters around the same age as Jon who could possibly be Ashara's son or daughter?

NomadicDirewolf, on 04 May 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

i think that this actually a possibility, since if martin was planning for r+l=j to be true in the first place now everyone has realised then he'll probably change it to something or put some additional information which we didnt see coming

I'm not a huge supporter of R+L=J, but I really don't think GRRM would change his original plans just because some readers guessed the mystery correctly. He's specifically stated that he wouldn't do that, and I believe him.

[Ser Gerian Galifrey]

I'd be cool with that. As long as the TOJ reveal makes sense. I'm all about R+L=J but I've also been known to come to completely bogus assumptions when reading a book. Whatever Martin says, I'm down to continue reading the snot out of these books.

[alienarea]

Apple Martini, on 03 May 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

If it is Ned — and I don't believe it is, but I'll play along — then Jon's mother better be the jaw-dropper of all jaw-droppers. And not like, Wylla or a fisherman's daughter or even Ashara. Like, Ned went back in time and fathered Jon on his own grandmother. I can't think of many, if any, "mother reveals" that would be boat-rocking enough to make sense in the face of all the absurd secrecy.

Ned + Wylla, Wylla being revealed as an Other/half-Other.

[Sapphire]

If Ned is truly Jon's father, then GRRM better have a damn good explanation as to why the three KGs didn't haul ass to Dragonstone/Viserys. Not to mention Lyanna's suspiciously childbirth-like death.

Natalie_S, on 04 May 2012 - 01:57 AM, said:

Why should he feel guilty all the time?
And, by the way, why did he never say anything to Catelyn, and spare her 15 years of bitter resentment?

Jon Connington didn't really steal from the Golden Company, yet feels shame that Varys put that story out there. As for keeping Catelyn the dark, Ned himself said some secrets are too dangerous to share even with trusted loved ones.

[Sun]

I would love it to be so. Jon would honestly be a much more fulfilling character, for me, if he remained just Ned's bastard, in which case his mother's identity would be insignificant to me, I really wouldn't care who she was unless it was needed for plot reasons further down the story.
I hate hidden identities, it's one of my peeves with this series, and Jon secretly having a "special" princely lineage that validates, and to an extent predestines, his journey annoys the hell out of me.

Having said that, I'll just add that at this point all available evidence points overwhelmingly towards R+L=J, but I would be forever grateful to GRRM if he somehow manages to prove us all wrong.

Edited by Sun, 04 May 2012 - 03:25 AM.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

Catastrophe, on 04 May 2012 - 02:53 AM, said:

Why would Ned and Ashara having a child be so hard for you to believe? Ashara was pregnant with a baby that supposedly died stillborn, so it seems pretty likely that she was having an affair with Ned, even if R+L=J does turn out to be true. (No, I don't buy into the theory that she slept with Brandon, it doesn't fit what we know about their interactions.) I also think that her baby might've actually survived... I wonder if there are any other characters around the same age as Jon who could possibly be Ashara's son or daughter?

To me the big issue regarding Jon being Ashara and Ned's son is that we only know of two interactions between Ned and Ashara.  Those being their dance at that Harrenhal Tourney, and him bringing her back the Dayne family greatsword "Dawn" after killing her brother.

The timeline is off for Jon to have been conceived during the dance of the tourney since Brandon Stark was still alive at the time, thereby meaning that Jon was conceived WELL before Ned was set to marry Catelyn (which would make her ire for him even more irrational) and is around a year older than Robb.  According to Barristan Selmy, Ashara's stillborn baby was conceived at Harrenhal so again, the timelines off.  (although, why I tend to think it was Brandon who bedded her, its possible that it was Ned as he wasnt betrothed to anyone and likely had designs on marrying her before his brothers death).
Also, seeing as how Ashara committed suicide after learning of Arthur's death, I cant see Jon being conceived then either.

[Eejit]

Jon's real mother is... dun dun DUNNNN

Spoiler

VARYS!

[Evamitchelle]

If Jon really is Ned's bastard then he really screwed up with the Cat-Jon situtation.

Edited by Evamitchelle, 04 May 2012 - 06:40 AM.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

Ser Gerian Galifrey, on 04 May 2012 - 03:00 AM, said:

I'd be cool with that. As long as the TOJ reveal makes sense. I'm all about R+L=J but I've also been known to come to completely bogus assumptions when reading a book. Whatever Martin says, I'm down to continue reading the snot out of these books.

One thing thats always bugged me about the TOJ is Lyanna is Ned's sister...Why wouldnt they let him see her...especially if she's near death.  Even if there were a prince inside that she just gave birth to (which I believe to be the case), whats the point of having the epic fight?  He's not going to kill her or the baby so I just never got the point of why they had to do battle unless there were orders from Rhaegar not to let anyone near her/them.