332 replies to this topic

[eyeheartsansa]

it's time for this to have its own topic since it keeps coming up.  I'm copying a post from the Breast thread, slightly modified for context.  It got a few likes so I thought it might be good here too.

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All this about Drogo being some brutal child rapist... Dany gradually fell for Drogo over the course of several months, doing the same thing every day.. riding in the hot sun and getting 'marital raped' by Drogo at night. Gradually she got better at riding her horse, her saddle sores went away and she felt healthier and stronger.. she learned to eat horse jerky.. she learned to enjoy sex wtih Drogo. Sex with Drogo was just one aspect of dany adjusting to a new life.

Unlike Cercei, she's never once looked back at her time with Drogo and thought of it as rape, because she fell in love with him.. that's something that's been projected by readers. The truth is that on the wedding night, Drogo gave her the opportunity to refuse. We don't know what would have happened had she actually refused, but even to offer seems like a big deal for a dothraki horselord. Once she consented, I guess Drogo saw it as a greenlight to take her doggy style every night with no regard for her comfort or pleasure. The Dothraki way, I guess. I suppose many a young terrified Dothraki virgin has gone through the exact same thing Dany has.. a rite of passage, of sorts. We like to think he could have been more of a gentlemen, but would that have been believable? I probably would have rolled my eyes in disbelief if Drogo was made to be that modern and sensitive.

It is all highly improbable, but I've come to see Dany as a remarkable person. I think she made a conscious choice to love Drogo, because he was all she had at the time. GRRM has stated that he meant for it to be a love story... it's up for debate how successful he was here, but he has offended feminist senibilities in doing this.

I can honestlty say however, that for me, before having discovered this forum, reading the book straight through and not poring over every detail, it did feel like a love story. It wasn't until I started discussing this with other people here that it even occurred to me how this would be perceived by others.

Chalk it up to to GRRM's vivid and descripting writing.. he is great at creating a sense of atmosphere that lets you get wrapped up in the characters and the setting. I think the same story told by an inferior writer would have seemed campy and, yeah, horribly horribly sexist, rather than 'maybe a little' sexist.

so.. in a nutshell, by Dothraki standards, I believe drogo is not guilty of marital rape because

- on the wedding night he gave Dany the option to refuse
- we aren't told that Dany ever tried to refuse him.. only that she cried alot and Drogo, not facing her, didn't see her crying
- Dany never looks back and thinks of it as rape


We can speculate as to what might have happened if Dany tried to refuse Drogo.. he might have continued bedding her and then that would have been rape.  I just don't think anything described in the books can be called rape, in the context of that society.  Sex can be unpleasant for one party and still not be considered rape.. I think this was the case for Dany, at first.

Lots of you disagree, I know!  Let's see how this discussion goes....

[Gaius Martell]

Hmm... I think it would be hard to prove that just because she eventually grew accustomed to the practice and gradually enjoyed it does NOT mean that the first time wasn't nonconsentual.  She would have LOVED to have said "no," but like oh-so-many college-age girls, the reality is that "no" isn't going to be an acceptable answer.  She knew this and reluctantly gave-in.  By modern standards, that's rape.

[Jayce]

It was not rape in the books, as far as I saw it, but the TV show made it look a hell of a lot more like rape. Even the actor and actress involved talked about that scene as if it was rape. Something I did not like tbh.

[Manderly is Boss]

By the standards of Dothraki culture he's a big softy. By a young girl, in a foreign land, with no foreseeable alternative's point of view probably not a memorable evening.

As Dennis from Always Sunny once stated "They're not going to say no, because of the implication. Not that thing's are going to go wrong for her, but she's thinking that they will."

[eyeheartsansa]

Gaius Martell, on 04 May 2012 - 02:53 AM, said:

Hmm... I think it would be hard to prove that just because she eventually grew accustomed to the practice and gradually enjoyed it does NOT mean that the first time wasn't nonconsentual.  She would have LOVED to have said "no," but like oh-so-many college-age girls, the reality is that "no" isn't going to be an acceptable answer.  She knew this and reluctantly gave-in.  By modern standards, that's rape.

but what is the use of applying these modern standards to this scenario?

and what is the significance of Drogo allowing her to refuse the first night?

[Evamitchelle]

Daenerys was forced into the marriage by her brother, and it was made very clear to her that refusing or just displeasing the Khal was not an option. Coerced sex = rape.

And I'm not sure what the laws of consent are in Westeros but at 13 Daenerys was still legally a child. Most men in Westeros wait until the bride is 15-16 to consummate the wedding.

[Gaius Martell]

eyeheartsansa, on 04 May 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

but what is the use of applying these modern standards to this scenario?

and what is the significance of Drogo allowing her to refuse the first night?

Well, if we are talking about "marital rape," I'd say that's a pretty modern standard.  I don't think that that concept exists in ASOIAF, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Evamitchelle]

Gaius Martell, on 04 May 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

Well, if we are talking about "marital rape," I'd say that's a pretty modern standard.  I don't think that that concept exists in ASOIAF, correct me if I'm wrong.

Marital rape is indeed not reconized in Westeros/Essos.

[eyeheartsansa]

Cercei considers Robert to have raped her.  What she describes sounds much more like rape, even by westerosi standards, than Dany's case.

[Buckwheat]

Their first night is very much open to debate, we do not know what would have happened if she had refused and we know that she did not want to marry Drogo in the first place.

But what happened later, every night when she was crying, that was definitely rape. If she consented on the first night, that does not mean she consented to be treated like this till the end of her life.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

eyeheartsansa, on 04 May 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

but what is the use of applying these modern standards to this scenario?

and what is the significance of Drogo allowing her to refuse the first night?

I'm not prepared to conceed that anyone can be expected to issue a blanket consent in perpetuity.  That Drogo knew no better does not absolve him of guilt.

That being said, Daenerys is able to turn the tables on their relationship (I don't think this can be argued), and afterward comes to love Drogo because of the new world he offers her as his Khaleesi.  After mastering the Khal, Daenerys enjoys greater freedom and security than at any other point in her life (except maybe Braavos).  In addition, with Viserys for a brother, Drogo would have had to work overtime to be the biggest Dany-abuser around.

So, on balance, Drogo's not so bad - from Dany's perspective.  That does not mean he didn't rape her, but he did, apparently, stop raping when her she trained him to.

Edited by Tumnas the Torpid, 04 May 2012 - 03:28 AM.

[Jayce]

Rape is a topic that makes me sick, I find it disgusting that it was so prolific in our recent history let alone today. However that being said Drogo gave her the chance to refuse, she chose not to, that is not rape coerced, martial or otherwise.

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He stopped then, and drew her down on to his lap. Dany was flushed and breathless, her heart fluttering in her chest. He cupped her face in his huge hands and she looked in to his eyes. "No?" he said, and she knew it was a question.

She took his hand and moved it down to the wetness between her thighs. "Yes" she whispered as she put his finger inside her.

Is that rape? I will ask the question because I recognise that my severe dislike of the thought may make me see it as not, but I am fairly sure it is not, by any standard.

I take your point on subsequent nights though.

With that in mind does that mean every arranged marriage in Westeros is a case of rape?

Edited by Jayce, 04 May 2012 - 03:19 AM.

[Eejit]

Evamitchelle, on 04 May 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

Daenerys was forced into the marriage by her brother, and it was made very clear to her that refusing or just displeasing the Khal was not an option. Coerced sex = rape.

Khal Drogo did not coerce her or arrange for her to be coerced, so he would not be guilty of rape in many legal systems - aside from the age issue obviously.

[Queen Cersei I]

Oh gods be good, not another rape thread. (Seriously, I'd honestly still trying to wrap my head around the assertion made by some random poster in a previous thread devoted to this topic that it is impossible to rape a sex slave, "since that's basically what they are there for." )

But the topic calls to me like a bowl of milk calls to a kitten. Damn you, eyeheartsansa. You magnificent bastard.

Anyway, I've never called the Dany/ Drogo scenes rape, however, I admit that I find the following very hard to read:

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Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from begind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.

I suppose one could say that the sex here is consensual since Danerys consented once-- on her wedding night-- and there's no sign she clearly objected to Drogo screwing her afterwards.

However, what is eminently clear is that this sex is excruciatingly painful, humiliating, and incredibly unpleasant for Danerys. Drogo is rough screwing of her is so physically painful that she cries each and every time, and has to bite back screams of pain.

The bare facts of the case are this-- Danerys is sold to Drogo like a piece of meat. He is kind to her once on their wedding night, which basically consists of helping her get aroused and then asking her permission for sex. He then goes on to ignore her, then at night creep into their tent, bend her over, and fuck her so roughly she cries hysterically and must repress (not always successfully) her cries of pain.

Now clearly, laws change, moral norms change. Drogo's behavior would be illegal on many levels in our society, but is accepted in his own.

But that does not change the laws of human nature; moral standards may change, but psychological reactions remain the same. And personally, I've always found it a bit strange-- and, dare I say, even unbelievable and contrived-- that after nights of the following treatment:

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Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from begind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night...

(Note here that Drogo's treatment of Dany makes the girl so miserable she actually considers suicide.)

Danerys feels no resentment whatsoever towards her "lord husband," and ends up falling deeply in love with him. Perhaps real affection could have come of this situation, however, I find it somewhat unbelievable that Drogo's incredibly rough handling of her did not cause at least some resentment, anger, feelings of violation, and conflicted emotions on Danerys part.

I guess "stockholm syndome" is one diagnosis, however, GRRM has repeatedly (in interviews) Indicated that he sees the Dany/ Drogo thing as a real love match. For instance, most recently, he has noted that he finds Danerys wedding night amongst the most romantic scenes in the ASOIAF series.

So... yeah. To me, Danerys wedding night was a young girl being exploited and finding the personal strength to deal with her situation as best she could. Or perhaps a man raised in a horrible society showing some genuine (and surprising) decency. However, "romantic" and "sexy" are not adjectives that would come to mind for me when characterizing this scene.

Edited by Queen Cersei I, 04 May 2012 - 03:23 AM.

[Evamitchelle]

Eejit, on 04 May 2012 - 03:19 AM, said:

Khal Drogo did not coerce her or arrange for her to be coerced, so he would not be guilty of rape in many legal systems - aside from the age issue obviously.

Being found not guilty in court =/= actually being innocent.

[Lyanna Stark]

I completely agree with everything Queen Cersei said above.

I posted this in the other thread, and it's equally valid here:

As I stated, I find it hard to suspend disbelief that Dany overcame the obstacles and got empowered enough to turn her marriage around considering her extreme youth, how terrified she was and the nature of Drogo himself. That has nothing to do with terminology. Unfortunately, since it is difficult to suspend disbelief, it turns into a Stockholm syndrome type of relationship. You see it as "problem solved", while I find it extremely hard to believe. I can see what it's meant to be. Even in worlds with magic, the suspension of disbelief is an important ingredient and I believe in this case the Dany/Drogo relationship and her quick turn around and ability to empower herself so strongly is not realistic enough for me to buy it.

Queen Cersei I, on 04 May 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

Danerys feels no resentment whatsoever towards her "lord husband," and ends up falling deeply in love with him. Perhaps real affection could have come of this situation, however, I find it somewhat unbelievable that Drogo's incredibly rough handling of her did not cause at least some resentment, anger, feelings of violation, and conflicted emotions on Danerys part.

This is what disturbs me as well and why I find it difficult to buy.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 04 May 2012 - 03:39 AM.

[eyeheartsansa]

Surprisingly, Cercei, I mostly agree with you!  And yes, GRRM could have fleshed out a little more conflict with Dany, but it seems like her relationship with Viserys was more the focus at that point in the story.

The wedding night chapter..  I didn't find it 'hot' so much as, touching and poignant.

Some of these scenarios are just so difficult to categorize by today's standards... but it's certainly interesting.  It just sucks that something that was normal and acceptable behavior for Drogo was so incredibly tough for Dany.  I just don't like to see Drogo villanized simply for being a Dothraki alpha male.  plus, he scores huge points for me for going along with dany's rape ban.

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Even in worlds with magic, the suspension of disbelief is an important ingredient and I believe in this case the Dany/Drogo relationship and her quick turn around and ability to empower herself so strongly is not realistic enough for me to buy it.

I think you have a valid point here, however, I never saw this as some quick turnaround so much as a gradual adjustment over time - which to me helps with some of the disbelief.  Also I'm a dude, so my perspective is limited in that sense.

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 04 May 2012 - 03:40 AM.

[Buckwheat]

Even if we accept Dany falling in love with Drogo while he was still alive, which is, as said by QC and Lyanna, kind of hard to believe already, I think that the situation after his death is even harder. Dany, especially in her last chapter of ADWD, keeps idealising her life with Drogo, remembering him as her "sun and stars", how she loved him etc.

I think it was more the fact that she was free from Viserys' pressure that she loved in this life, and that she had some kind of a good position in the society for the first time in her life then. But it is not very believable, seeing that Dany is a reasonable person, that after about three years, she would not be able to take a look to their relationship with some distance, seeing it for what it was.

[Lummel]

eyeheartsansa, on 04 May 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

...by Dothraki standards, I believe drogo is not guilty of marital rape because

- on the wedding night he gave Dany the option to refuse
- we aren't told that Dany ever tried to refuse him.. only that she cried alot and Drogo, not facing her, didn't see her crying
- Dany never looks back and thinks of it as rape...

Well I would be shocked, shocked I tell you, if the Dothraki had a concept of marital rape considering that the traditional custom was said to be that the Khal should share his wife with his Bloodriders.  We don't even know if they have a concept of rape, however we as readers certainly do, and we are the ones who GRRM intended to read and respond to the text.

I'm not one of your big city lawyers but all the same the suggestion of a universal consent that you imply with your first point seems to me to be very troubling.  It's clear that the specifics of their first night are quite different from those of subsequent occasions of marital relations.  Even putting aside the expectations loaded on to Dany by her brother (and sovereign), Illyrio and the situation itself which may well have made saying no impossible that one "yes" can not be taken by us as a universal yes, applicable to all other situations.  Once we get to "Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion..." and "...the tear that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain" what word, what concept other than rape can we as readers use to describe that scene?  Of course to Khal Drogo it isn't rape because that is an alien concept to him, she is like a horse to him, (and as such superior to other women) but in possesion of very limited rights.  However Dany isn't Dothraki - so why only envoke the standards of the Dothraki?

No, Dany doesn't look back on the circumstances as rape.  However to take that as meaning the ends justified the means as in she was raped until she got used to it, but once she was broken in properly that made everything ok is, in very neutral language, extremely troubling.

ASOIAF is, I think, meant to be troubling.  That the Dothraki do things that they culturally are happy with (purdah for widows, enslavement of people, rape of women) is self-evident but neither here nor there for us as readers.  We are not meant to look at them as moral exemplars.  What we have is the story of a young girl who was sold and abused, whose live and attitudes have been transformed and determined by that experience.  We are looking in on the situation from the outside and are in a freer position to judge and are meant to judge the situation.  Do you as a reader take in what happened and think that it is good and the way that people should behave?  I don't think that just because Drogo was ok with what happened and because women have no rights in his society that made things ok either.

[Lyanna Stark]

Buckwheat, on 04 May 2012 - 03:42 AM, said:

Even if we accept Dany falling in love with Drogo while he was still alive, which is, as said by QC and Lyanna, kind of hard to believe already, I think that the situation after his death is even harder. Dany, especially in her last chapter of ADWD, keeps idealising her life with Drogo, remembering him as her "sun and stars", how she loved him etc.

To be fair, I took this as meaning she longed for a time when life was less complicated and someone else was in charge. It's not a strange longing for someone who has to deal with a lot of difficult situations, has a lot of responsibility, suffers from self doubt (which Dany often does in ADWD) and feels very isolated and alone.