410 replies to this topic

[Queen of Spades]

Wow, I didn't think my Unkiss-theory would recieve such a warm welcome. It was only a bit of wild crackpotting. Glad you like it so much

(And I'm only in the middle of  LSC * ! )


* Lummel's Scale of Craziness

Edited by Queen of Spades, 08 May 2012 - 02:39 PM.

[Rapsie]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Sansa Stark is the Deanna Troi of  Westeros .

Seriously though, it is possible that Sansa's warging ability maybe some sort of person based intuition. There is Sandor and then there are small other things like Maester Coleman commenting that she has a way with SR. Either way, Sansa is very empathetic.

Edited by Rapsie, 08 May 2012 - 03:02 PM.

[Caro99]

i like the theory of sansa wargin sandor in a really mini-way a lot!! it would add a special note to why sansa thinks so much about the un-kiss, since it wouldn't only be a matter of her liking sandor as a man, but because this was her 1st experience with warging- she can't explain it at all since lady died, and it has never happened again and it was only probably just a quick moment that took as long as blinking- but that was enough and sandor was just wayyyy too drunk to notice anything was even more out of the ordinary in such a situatuion. but i guess that if deep down he felt her as she was trying to soothe him, that must be why he broke the proximity between them, (apart of the fact that sansa just disarmed him with the song and by cupping his cheek- i hope it was the burnt side). but it has been said that the 1st time that bran or varamyr six-skins warg another human, either death or some crazy as hell HODOR'S happened, but (maybe i am just too much of a San/San shipper), but the fact that this extreme reaction did not happen with sansa and sandor- instead the opposite, with her soothing him- would just be George practically telling us that Sansa ought to really keep the Hound around if they ever meet again

anyways, just my 2 cents to this warging theory..

[Queen of Spades]

Caro99, on 08 May 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

but it has been said that the 1st time that bran or varamyr six-skins warg another human, either death or some crazy as hell HODOR'S happened, but (maybe i am just too much of a San/San shipper), but the fact that this extreme reaction did not happen with sansa and sandor- instead the opposite, with her soothing him- would just be George practically telling us that Sansa ought to really keep the Hound around if they ever meet again

IIRC Varamyr had to fight not only for the human, but also the first time he took over the shadowcat. And his other animals do not seem to like him much, whereas Bran and Summer have a more symbiotic relationship. So if the Stark kids have this symbiotic link towards their direwolves, and Sandor is indeed Lady's replacement...

(Anyway, I hope Sansa will never warg him completely, that would be... weird ! )

[Maroucia]

Caro99, on 08 May 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

i like the theory of sansa wargin sandor in a really mini-way a lot!! it would add a special note to why sansa thinks so much about the un-kiss, since it wouldn't only be a matter of her liking sandor as a man, but because this was her 1st experience with warging- she can't explain it at all since lady died, and it has never happened again and it was only probably just a quick moment that took as long as blinking- but that was enough and sandor was just wayyyy too drunk to notice anything was even more out of the ordinary in such a situatuion. but i guess that if deep down he felt her as she was trying to soothe him, that must be why he broke the proximity between them, (apart of the fact that sansa just disarmed him with the song and by cupping his cheek- i hope it was the burnt side). but it has been said that the 1st time that bran or varamyr six-skins warg another human, either death or some crazy as hell HODOR'S happened, but (maybe i am just too much of a San/San shipper), but the fact that this extreme reaction did not happen with sansa and sandor- instead the opposite, with her soothing him- would just be George practically telling us that Sansa ought to really keep the Hound around if they ever meet again

You never forget your first time.

Queen of Spades, on 08 May 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

(Anyway, I hope Sansa will never warg him completely, that would be... weird ! )

Agreed.

[brashcandy]

*recovering from 6hr flight* (still on vacay)

But just wanted to shout out to Queen of Spades for that fantastic warg theory! Just when we thought we had put this all to bed here it comes again But I'm loving it. Really really great and worth exploring.

[Caro99]

yeah, i don't think the fans would like it, and i am sure sandor and sansa wouldn't like it as well. sandor i bet would not like having the little bird inside his head, nor may sansa like some of the things she "saw" there. i don't think she will ever warg him again (if she already has done so) but it's nice to think that if it did happen in the slightest of ways, it was with sandor with sort of positive results.
i would love to see her warging into a little bird though! and hopefully the bird isn't a mockingbird coughcoughLFcoughcough that i would hate.

[Sylvan Fox]

Wow, that theory is interesting. I don't know if I would like it or not if it were true. On the one hand, this would be a really cool thing for Sansa to be able to do. On the other, it seems kind of weird for her to be invading his mind. If that's what she was doing, though, he didn't fight it. Maybe because he was drunk, or maybe because he was so crappy at communicating with her that he somewhat welcomed her presence there, or at least her interest in what he was thinking.

Warging birds would be an awesome thing for Sansa to do. If she has some kind of subtle people-warging to go with that, plus what she can learn from LF, we will finally see Sansa kicking some ass.

[Grail King]

I think we will have to wait until something traumatic happens, maybe LF trying to off SR which may enrage Sansa that she has a full fledge rage attack that may bring her back to a Stark of Winterfell and able to warg something, though she like her siblings are wargs she is just at an empath stage which to me isn't half bad she can seamlessly manipulate people that way, like maybe LF.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

brashcandy, on 04 May 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

Personally, I don't think LF plans on actually seeing that marriage to fruition. In the final Sansa chapter of AFFC, Sansa recalls him telling her that young girls are always happier with older men, and that innocence and experience make a perfect marriage. I'm going to go out on a limb and state that this is just another one of LF's cunning remarks in his process of grooming Sansa for his eventual seduction and marriage to her. LF certainly doesn't think that Sansa will be happy with Harry the Heir (or he might not care, even if he may believe that Harry is Sansa's type), and if he is planning on having the marriage actually happen, then he isn't preparing for Harry to be alive for very long.

I think is plan his for the marriage to go through, Sansa gets pregnant and a poor accident happens to Harry, i think LF finally bites it though after Harry is killed

[brashcandy]

Ser Pollo Loco, on 08 May 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

I think is plan his for the marriage to go through, Sansa gets pregnant and a poor accident happens to Harry, i think LF finally bites it though after Harry is killed

Yeah, this is a possibility, but even if LF really is sincere about the marriage occurring, I don't see Sansa going along with it. Yes, the temptation of Winterfell will be great, but she's really been turned off by the idea of marriages and marriage alliances expecially for political purposes. Not to mention that Harry the Heir represents the type of boy/man that Sansa is no longer really interested in and has good reason to be wary of.

***

I like how Queen of Spades' warg theory implicates Sandor in the unkiss memory, and perhaps gives us an explanation for why Martin said that this mismemory has some significance. If Sansa did manage to establish some "telepathic" connection with Sandor on that night, it would also explain why she has an actual sensory description for what happened. She "sees" it in his mind, and therefore "feels" it as well?

[Elba the Intoner]

Oooh!  I like this idea of the empathic connection Sansa has with Sandor as being telepathic in some way.  That seems to be a very logical result of Sansa's underdeveloped warging ability and some sort of reaching out that needs to happen to start the warging process as Lyanna suggested.  I also agree with Rapsie and others that Sansa is an empath (the Deanna Troi of Westeros - love it!)  But as for Sansa fully warging Sandor the way Bran does with Hodor, NO!  Even in his very weakened and drunk state at the end of the BBB (he's only one step up from the rock bottom he hits in his deathbed confession scene with Arya), Sandor is not so weak minded to allow for a full out warging take over.

Also regarding the Harry the Heir plan, we have to distinguish between what it seems LF's true intentions are with what we think will really happen.  Personally, it seems that LF is serious about the plan and intends for the marriage to happen.  It is one of the ways that he bought off Lady Waynewood's support, and the way he describes Harry to Sansa is exactly what he thinks Sansa would want to hear.  He also plays a very long game and we know he has no compunction about offing anyone who gets in the way of his ultimate end goal.  So, I believe too that while he fully intends for the marriage to happen, he also plans for an unfortunate "accident" to befall Harry once Sansa produces and heir.

However, like Brashcandy pointed out here:

Yeah, this is a possibility, but even if LF really is sincere about the marriage occurring, I don't see Sansa going along with it. Yes, the temptation of Winterfell will be great, but she's really been turned off by the idea of marriages and marriage alliances especially for political purposes. Not to mention that Harry the Heir represents the type of boy/man that Sansa is no longer really interested in and has good reason to be wary of.

I agree and don't see this marriage coming off at all in terms of Sansa's story line.  The point is that LF doesn't know Sansa as well as he thinks he does and that he is making this plan with limited information.  Also, Sansa is his weakness and hopefully will be his downfall.  So, in sum, while Lf is sincere about the marriage plan, it won't actually happen.

[Lummel]

Hmm.  Don't forget Winter has Arrived.  This is not the time to lead an army north to reclaim Winterfell (unless you want to loose it in a snow drift somewhere).  The promise of winterfell could well be a carrot to tempt Sansa to seduce Harry the Heir and generally win her support for Littlefinger's activities.  Promises and boys are what Littlefinger uses to keep Lyn Corbray on side and I think he is taking the same approach with Sansa.  The winterfell promise is something he can easily wriggle out of having to deliver on by simply making more promises, the time isn't right, the wrong kind of snow is in the passes, there aren't enough arrows ready for the army yet and so on...

[brashcandy]

Lummel, on 09 May 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

Hmm.  Don't forget Winter has Arrived.  This is not the time to lead an army north to reclaim Winterfell (unless you want to loose it in a snow drift somewhere).  The promise of winterfell could well be a carrot to tempt Sansa to seduce Harry the Heir and generally win her support for Littlefinger's activities.  Promises and boys are what Littlefinger uses to keep Lyn Corbray on side and I think he is taking the same approach with Sansa.  The winterfell promise is something he can easily wriggle out of having to deliver on by simply making more promises, the time isn't right, the wrong kind of snow is in the passes, there aren't enough arrows ready for the army yet and so on...

This sums up my feelings as well. I just don't think he is sincere about that plan, given the mess happening in the North, and we already know he's deceived her once before on the promise of going home. Added to this is his extremely suggestive (read creepy) comment that younger girls are happier married to older men.

ETA: Additionally, the entire vision that LF presents to Sansa, of her wearing her Stark maiden's cloak, and the Vale armies offering her their swords in one sweeping gesture, sounds like a scene straight from a fairytale that Sansa believed when she was younger, not something that LF would genuinely invest in (life is not a song, sweetling) and probably not Sansa at this time either.

Edited by brashcandy, 09 May 2012 - 09:15 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Elba the Intoner, on 09 May 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

Also regarding the Harry the Heir plan, we have to distinguish between what it seems LF's true intentions are with what we think will really happen.  Personally, it seems that LF is serious about the plan and intends for the marriage to happen.  It is one of the ways that he bought off Lady Waynewood's support, and the way he describes Harry to Sansa is exactly what he thinks Sansa would want to hear.  He also plays a very long game and we know he has no compunction about offing anyone who gets in the way of his ultimate end goal.  So, I believe too that while he fully intends for the marriage to happen, he also plans for an unfortunate "accident" to befall Harry once Sansa produces and heir.

I'll actually be inclined to disagree here regarding Harry. While Littlefinger describes Harry as very gallant, he also makes sure to snark away about how Sansa/Alayne should have no trouble "winning his boyish heart", indicating that Littlefinger thinks Harry is a simpleton and only a pawn to be used. The whole description of handsome Harry, the bastards he has already fathered and his "boyish heart" just drips with condescension and it also feels like LF wants for Sansa to share his derision of Harry. I think here Littlefinger is trying to contrast himself with Harry: LF is clever, a player and not at all like the young "boyish" Harry whom LF tells Sansa they can both play and mock behind his back.

It feels like LF is telling Sansa it will be a simple thing to seduce Harry since he's got the looks of Sansa's dream man, but that he's too stupid to really get attached to and that they [LF and Sansa] are above such as Harry.


It remains to be seen if Sansa can play the seductress (I am sure she can) but also how she will feel about that role, and whether she will rebel against it or not. Interestingly, she is almost exactly practising the "weapons" Cersei told her about: weakness (tears) and seduction (what you have between your legs), a woman's weapons. Yet Sansa uses it with more subtlety so far. She plays the damsel in distress and gets Sweetrobin on his way down the mountain and over the landsaddle. Now she's being faced with attempting to use weapon no 2, and practising at being a seductress.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 09 May 2012 - 10:04 AM.

[Elba the Intoner]

@Lyanna - I see your point and I don't disagree, but the way I took those derogatory comments about Harry is that he wants to ensure that Sansa doesn't get too attached to the idea of Harry.  I don't know if I can explain it clearly, but it has to do with the way LF has put down any other man that Sansa was associated with, like Willas for ex.  So, he's saying to her, you'll be required to seduce Harry which you shouldn't mind too much because he has all those handsome charming qualities you like in a guy (not realizing that she no longer likes that), but don't get too attached because he's just a silly, disposable boy that we are just using as a pawn.  So he is trying to entice her to play his game but I agree that with the derogatory comments about Harry he's also saying Harry is not in your league and in the end the only guy who is good for you is me.  Does this make any sense?

[Lyanna Stark]

Elba the Intoner, on 09 May 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

So he is trying to entice her to play his game but I agree that with the derogatory comments about Harry he's also saying Harry is not in your league and in the end the only guy who is good for you is me.  Does this make any sense?

A bit more yes

However, I think Littlefinger's whole game with Sansa here has larger implications.

If we look at how Littlefinger positions himself initially, and also throughout, it is as Sansa's protector first and foremost. Her new "father" who will help her sort everything out. Then later on he expands this role to also be her teacher and she his protege. But especially in the last chapter in AFFC, he is trying to gradually expand this role to also include romantic suitor or love interest. Look at how he frames the discussion about the marriage contract. He wants her to kiss him properly, and then he pulls her down into his lap and then lastly, he ends it with asking her if that is not worth more kisses.

Ever since he kissed Sansa at the snow castle, he has very gradually tried to wheedle his way in as a love interest with Sansa, but it definitely comes out strongest around the marriage proposal to Harry. Why would he do that if not to completely undermine Harry as a potential love interest and present himself instead?

Of course, we as readers know that Sansa has already met a man previously who seems to have acted mainly as protector/teacher and who has (unconsciously to himself and Sansa) migrated towards also being a potential love interest. But there is a huge difference in how these two interact with Sansa, with Sandor Clegane being brutally honest often bordering on cruel, which Sansa often doesn't like and has a hard time understanding, and then you have Littlefinger who tells the sweetest of lies, knows exactly how to act to please and who can paint the most wonderful scenarios to get people to play along. While Sandor wants her to wake up and smell the proverbial coffee, LF focuses on getting her more entangled and more co-dependant on the lies. We see it the strongest in how he blames her for Marillion's murder with the words "Do you want more blood on your hands?" as if SHE was the one who was behind Lysa's madness and LF shoving her out of the Moon Door while pinning the blame on the singer.

The worst thing with this is that sweet words and pleasant lies are one of Sansa's weaknesses since before. Through AFFC we also see her struggling and coming to terms with a more cynical interpretation of the world around her, but that she's also still vulnerable to LF's lies and manipulations. She can see through some things, but some she can't,  and some she struggles with. The "I will give you Winterfell" is almost definitely one of those lies he's telling her to make her play along.

Interestingly, on one level it's almost as if LF and Sansa are playing a game of Cyvasse since they are both deceiving each other and hiding things from each other. We know Sansa is deceiving LF on a few important occasions from her chapters, and it would be too out of character for LF not to deceive her, since LF is all about LF and getting what he wants. The big question is: who will win this particular game? Experience would favour Littlefinger, but hubris_as_method_of_downfall would favour Sansa.

EDIT: Grammar fail

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 09 May 2012 - 02:50 PM.

[Queen of Spades]

brashcandy, on 09 May 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

Additionally, the entire vision that LF presents to Sansa, of her wearing her Stark maiden's cloak, and the Vale armies offering her their swords in one sweeping gesture, sounds like a scene straight from a fairytale that Sansa believed when she was younger, not something that LF would genuinely invest in (life is not a song, sweetling) and probably not Sansa at this time either.

You have only to reveal yourself and all of them will join you...Makes me think of Illyrio telling Viserys that the people of Westeros are waiting for him, sewing dragon banners in secret, etc...

[Valkyrja]

Greetings, fellow Sansa-fans! I've had the most enjoyable week catching up on reading these re-read threads in their entirety. I must say that I am very impressed!  

I've been a member of this board for over five years and prior to that lurked for several years....and let me say that this is possibly one of the best reads I've ever had on the forum, not to mention one of the most welcoming places I've visited on this forum. That an entire thread about Sansa's character development even happened without devolving into a flame war.....well, it gives me hope for humanity, hehe.   Like you, I am extremely fond of Sansa and over the years have been dismayed to see the amount of loathing directly at her in ASoIaF fandom. Maybe it is just because I have always been able to deeply relate to Sansa, but anyway.....I'm glad you all have proved to me that there are other fans who can have mature, informed literary discussion about  Sansa, chock full of excellent observations on previously unnoticed details and musings on symbolism, foreshadowing, mythology, etc. All I can say is THANK YOU!!

I have some thoughts to share at some point......looking forward to finally contributing.

Edited by Valkyrja, 09 May 2012 - 05:55 PM.

[Maroucia]

Harry, from what we’ve heard of him, doesn’t seem to be a really nice guy, but that doesn’t mean that Sansa would be willing to use him completely and then throw him away as a piece of garbage. She is learning to flirt and charm men, which is good thing, but I would not think that she would feel good manipulating others if it would be done with no consideration at all for them and with cruel intentions.

If Sansa do as Petyr is asking her and marries Harry for a while, she’ll be doing exactly the same thing that she doesn’t want people to do to her: seeing him as a claim and nothing more. Of course, Sansa still has her own claim that would surely interest Harry, if he would ever learn about it, but as the situation is at the moment, he is going to be the used one.

To make the matter even worst, Harry will only gain his claim with SW’s death…   
Sansa has a gentle heart, she will never accept to destroy others to elevate herself, she is no Littlefinger.

Edited by Maroucia, 09 May 2012 - 06:40 PM.