15 replies to this topic

[Mack Kilimaro]

The last Hugo thread was more about the nominating process. Here is a fresh thread where people can discuss the nominees and who should/will win in a bit greater depth.

My OP will focus only on the Novel category, as that's the only one I am familiar with the nominees, but feel free to dive into some others.

In case anyone needs a quick reminder, the five nominees for Best Novel are:

A Dance with Dragons by GRRM
Among Others by Jo Walton
Deadline by Mira Grant
Embassytown by China Mieville
Leviathan Wakes by James S.A. Corey

I recently read the non-ADWD nominees and re-read ADWD. Some quick thoughts on each book.

ADWD: We need not re-litigate its many pros and cons here. If you must, at least put it in the context of ranking against the other four.

Among Others: A touching story of a young nerd girl trying to fit in with new people. Despite the presence of fairies in the story, this is actually the most mundane of the nominees, with much of it focusing on pretty normal human reactions, like suddenly having to get to know an estranged dad and being shipped off to boarding school by crazy spinster aunts. (Although, parts of it are set in Wales, so in that sense it's the biggest work of fiction imaginable.) Lots of references to the catalog of SF/F works that had been completed by the time the book is set (late 1979/early 1980), proving to me that my knowledge of this old-school stuff is not nearly as strong as it could have been. I felt like I was missing a lot by not being able to connect with that nostalgia.

Deadline: Second book in a zombie trilogy; the first was a nominee last year. I liked Feed well enough, but I found Deadline to be a mess. The first book was much more tense and action-packed, and the plot moved more evenly. Deadline is much more inconsistent. The zombie threat disappears for our protagonists for most of the novel. Too much relies on the evil conspiracy villains being just dumb enough to not be able to thwart the poorly-conceived plans of the crusading protags. The narration of Shaun of the Dead Mason is pretty static in the themes it harps on, only seeming to make a tiny bit of progress towards the end, just in time for a surprise plot twist in the epilogue to remove any emotional investment for the reader.

Embassytown: Out of the five nominees, this is the book that most made me think, "Damn, I wish I could have written this." I was surprised by this, because I have not tended to enjoy Mieville's fantasy-ish offerings. This book is just plain cool, with its far future with a distant "Terre" that some people don't even believe ever existed, its evolution of Christianity into some vaguely recognizable form (where the surprised exclamation is "Christ Uploaded!"), and its system of cloned humans who are developed to communicate with an awesome alien race that somehow makes a language out of two voices speaking simultaneously. A book like this is why people read SF, to see normal human problems play out against fantastical, futuristic backdrops.

Leviathan Wakes: I wanted to like this, I really did. I was all primed from the GRRM cover quote that said something like, "it's been a long time since we had a good, kick-ass space opera." I felt like it was treading on ground familiar to me, with a kind of space-as-western-frontier thing going on in the vein of shows like Firefly or Cowboy Bebop, but the problem with that association is that it never really broke out of that mold. The assorted crew members feel like they are stock characters. It may be that subsequent books will take this in a much different direction, in a Joe Abercrombie kind of way, in which case I will have to revise upward my opinion of Leviathan. Much of the plot of the book relies on the reader caring that Earth and Mars may be forced into a war, but the reader is never given much reason to care about either Earth or Mars.

THE VERDICT

A Dance with Dragons

Rationale: If the Academy can give Martin Scorsese a make-up Oscar by having him win for The Departed, then I'd say the Hugos owe GRRM a make-up Hugo. Were I forbidden from choosing Dance, I'd say Embassytown is the clear winner.

What do you think? Flame on! Many actual Worldcon attendees/Hugo voters may actually read this thread, so be persuasive.

Edited by Mack Kilimaro, 04 May 2012 - 12:00 PM.

[Datepalm]

I haven't read Deadline or Embassytown. I don't particularly want to read the former.

Of the other three, I agree with you on Among Others and Leviathan Wakes. I also think nostalgia should be feared and loathed and battled to the death with fire and pitchfork on general principle, so i'm wary of both those books. Neither is at all terrible, and AO is actually pretty damn good, but both seem like a very deliberate harkening to the past. AO at least has a bit of deconstruction of it, but it's also very much having it's cake while eating only a little of it, which I find disingeneous, and the further I way I get from having read both, the slighter they seem.

I can only thank whatever quantum gods look over Science Fiction that Ready Player One isn't on the ballot.

I just started my read of ADWD, and i'm just reminded again of just how damn effortlessly immersive and pleasurable the series is. Usually i'd be kind of dismissive of that as a quality for a hugo nominee (That sort of thing should be knotty and challenging, yeah?) but in this instance I think it hits right at the heart of what makes a good secondary world epic fantasy, the layers and layers of seamless character and worldbuilding and plot all woven together that make it come alive and let the author tell the story they want to tell while controlling every single aspect - and ASOIAF is still the best i've ever read, and ADWD might be the second best book of the series. (sue me, ASOS is my favorite.)

[Sci-2]

I think Embassy Town has some interesting ideas about language, a good job of prose fitting the scenes, and some cool aliens.

But for all that, the way the plot unfolds felt forced to me, especially how quickly it seems to descend into zombie survival horror.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I will put A Dance of Dragons on the first place, since I really liked it a lot, and besides, well, George does deserve a make-up award, and ASOIAF as a whole deserves recognition. I liked Among Others as a single book (as opposed to a part of the series) better, but not to the extent it would overcome above mentioned considerations, so it gets the second place. Embassytown is third - very ambitious novel, but with some flaws. I rather enjoyed Leviathan Wakes but I agree with those who think it is too slight to deserve an award. Still I will place it fourth, above no award. I didn't read Deadline and have little desire to do so, since I didn't like Feed at all and the consensus seems to be Deadline is weaker. I will try to read it, once I get the voter's packet, just to have a clear conscience. Still, probabły below no award.

Edited by Bastard of Godsgrace, 04 May 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[beniowa]

I've read them all except Deadline and I have no intention of reading it since I didn't care for Feed at all.

Like the others, I'll be voting for ADWD for first place.  It wasn't my favorite of the series, but it's a great book and the writing is terrific.  I'm not ashamed to be a huge GRRM fanboy.  And frankly, I can't still get over the fact ASOS lost out to a Harry Potter book.

Next place will be Embassytown.  I really enjoyed the exploration of language and how alien the Hosts were.  I wish more writers were science fiction like this.

Among Others will be third with Leviathan wakes in next to last.  I loved the literary references in Among Others, but otherwise the book felt a bit light.  I don't think Walton really went far enough with any of her themes.  And while I enjoyed Leviathan wakes quite a bit, it's inclusion on the list is a little surprising.



Though while the choices seem clear to me, it also seems that there's no clear winner this year so it could be a bit of a toss-up.

[aryasthebomb]

@datepalm what is it about Ready Player One that you didnt like?
I found it quite charming

[David Selig]

Mack Kilimaro, on 04 May 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

  THE VERDICT A Dance with Dragons Rationale: If the Academy can give Martin Scorsese a make-up Oscar by having him win for The Departed, then I'd say the Hugos owe GRRM a make-up Hugo.

My view is the opposite - just because there are many cases of make-up awards, even with the most prestigious ones, being given, doesn't make the practice less wrong and annoying. I really dislike it. Two wrongs doesn't make a right.

I mean if someone thinks ADWD is the best novel among the nominees, he should vote for it, sure. I don't share this opinion, but tastes vary, and it's not like it's some really mediocre novel which would be known in 20 years as the "Worst Hugo winner ever". But I hope nobody or at least very few people vote for it with the reasoning that "It wasn't all that great, and I liked novel X on the shortlist better, but it's time for Martin to win a Hugo for best Novel, and I loved the previous books in the series".

I've only read ADWD and Among Others of the novel nominees and prefer the latter. It's not a masterpiece, it is a bit slight in terms of thematic depth, and the ending is too abrupt, but it's consistently engaging and just really enjoyable to read, and the main character is really well developed. And as someone who really love the 1970s SFF, I enjoyed all the references to it a lot.

For my money ADWD is very good, but seriously flawed. There are great moments, and probably the best single character arc in the series to date (Theon) but it has just too many flaws. Some of the plotlines, including main ones, are really bloated and plain boring most of the time,and there are just too many big cliffhangers in the end. Maybe it's better on reread, but for now, I don't see it as a worthy winner (not that there hasn't been several much worse, but still...).

In the novella category, I've read "Silently and Very Fast" and "The Man Who Ended History'. Both are really good, well worth the read. If I voted, the former would have had my vote, since it's more like the type of writing I love, with evocative poetic style and fantastic imagery, plus I am a total Valente fanboy, but the other, written much more plainly and reminiscent of the style of the Golden Age of Sci-Fi, present an original view of a traditional Sci-fi plot (travelling to the past to witness historic events) and is quite powerful in its own way.

Edited by David Selig, 03 September 2012 - 09:08 AM.

[Contrarius]

Speaking of Among Others, I see that it won the Nebula this weekend.

[Calibandar]

Dance, this book gave me far more reading enjoyment than any of the other books here, has the best characters and is simply the best written book as well.

[TannerSack]

I enjoyed "Among Others" but am not understanding what would make it award worthy? Perhaps it's all the references to old sci fi and a reference to the Worldcon and Hugo that has people atwitter. Really a simple novel without much happening. I'd give a No Award over this little work.

[Contrarius]

TannerSack, on 21 May 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

I enjoyed "Among Others" but am not understanding what would make it award worthy? Perhaps it's all the references to old sci fi and a reference to the Worldcon and Hugo that has people atwitter. Really a simple novel without much happening. I'd give a No Award over this little work.

IMHO it would have been award worthy IF the author

Spoiler

had kept the reality of magic and the fairies in doubt, rather than establishing that they really existed when she allowed the boy to see them.

But she didn't, and to my mind that spoiled a lot of the book. Up until that point, I thought the book was very very good.

[TannerSack]

Spoiler

The whole notion that he saw the fairies made it mottled. It could be assumed that it was just a shared fantasy using the power of suggestion. I was quite invested in the illusiionary world she had created to keep her sane but the whole book just felt like a "half made world".

It was like an incredibly soft spirited version of a David Lynch movie, a dreamscape that has no solidity if you try to rationalize it into a cohesive narrative.

A pleasant ride but I I don't think it takes much talent to write what she did so I would never vote for it.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Contrarius, on 22 May 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

IMHO it would have been award worthy IF the author

Spoiler

had kept the reality of magic and the fairies in doubt, rather than establishing that they really existed when she allowed the boy to see them.

But she didn't, and to my mind that spoiled a lot of the book. Up until that point, I thought the book was very very good.

Well, my opinion is opposite. Firstly because it would make to easy to dismiss the protagonist as simply insane and therefore unworthy of attention. I was surprised how many people hated Mori and interpreting something like this in an uncharitable way would be very tempting for them. Secondly, I have heard several people claiming it is a mainstream novel and doesn't belong in a genre award list. If the magic was left ambiguous I would be forced to admit they have a case.

[TannerSack]

Bastard of Godsgrace, on 22 May 2012 - 03:07 AM, said:

Well, my opinion is opposite. Firstly because it would make to easy to dismiss the protagonist as simply insane and therefore unworthy of attention. I was surprised how many people hated Mori and interpreting something like this in an uncharitable way would be very tempting for them. Secondly, I have heard several people claiming it is a mainstream novel and doesn't belong in a genre award list. If the magic was left ambiguous I would be forced to admit they have a case.

The point is that the story in it's entirety is ambiguous. First she thinks her Aunts are evil witches, then they are just ignorant witches, then they may not be witches at all. Her mom wants to do her and her sister harm, then she becomes this insane omnipresent ghost, then she is simply cast aside. The fairies want to help her but for there own devices, then they are indifferent. Her father wants to rape her(and that's acceptable in her eyes, wtf) and he is her fellow bibliophile.

I believe this whole book is just a voyeurs trip into scifi/fantasy escapism. While being good in a way, trying to classify it into any specific category just gives one a headache, let alone winning awards as best book in a genre? very odd.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

TannerSack, on 22 May 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

The point is that the story in it's entirety is ambiguous. First she thinks her Aunts are evil witches, then they are just ignorant witches, then they may not be witches at all. Her mom wants to do her and her sister harm, then she becomes this insane omnipresent ghost, then she is simply cast aside. The fairies want to help her but for there own devices, then they are indifferent. Her father wants to rape her(and that's acceptable in her eyes, wtf) and he is her fellow bibliophile. I believe this whole book is just a voyeurs trip into scifi/fantasy escapism. While being good in a way, trying to classify it into any specific category just gives one a headache, let alone winning awards as best book in a genre? very odd.

I think being difficult to classify is one of the strongest points of the book. It looks like an autobiography, but it has overt fantastic elements. It looks like a fantasy novel, but it has very little action. It looks like a boarding school novel, but the school is strangely unimportant in it. It looks like a bildungsroman, but its message seems rather subversive for it. It appears to be all those things, but only partially.

As for incest thing it is meant as a polemic with Heinlein who was strongly into all forms of incest in many of his books. It does seem psychologically possible for a nerdy teenager who was big Heinlein fan to buy into this nonsense. I certainly had a strong desire to smack Heinlein in his head while reading this.

Edited by Bastard of Godsgrace, 22 May 2012 - 04:09 AM.

[RaceBannon42]

Bumping for Deadline

http://chicon.org/hugo/vote.php

Deadline for Hugo voting is The end of July.
The BWB looks to have a large contigent at Worldcon, so lets all make sure we exercise our votes.

Of particular interest to the BwB should be:

A Dance with Dragons is up for Best Novel

Anne Groell is up for Best Editor Long form

Game of Thrones is up for Best Dramatic Presentation Long form

and dont forget longtime friend of the BwB, and artist for this year's ASOIAF calender John Picacio is once again nominated for best Professional Artist.  Let's see if we cant help him win his first and long overdue Hugo.