155 replies to this topic

[Migey]

It does, and I would agree if I cared enough about either character to wonder about their backstory. But I still never got the impression there was something significant, just that Yardem was a soldier under Marcus' employ who had worked with him for awhile.

[Bold Berthold]

I thought it was completely understood that there is a backstory but that we don't know it yet. It is after all only the 2nd of 5 books.  Maybe we will never get it but I still assume that we will and that it will only add to the overall story.

I love Logen Ninefingers but I don't ever hear people complain that we don't know why he becomes possessed (or berserks or whatever).

[Jaxom 1974]

Migey, on 06 July 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

It does, and I would agree if I cared enough about either character to wonder about their backstory. But I still never got the impression there was something significant, just that Yardem was a soldier under Marcus' employ who had worked with him for awhile.

Guess that's the "agree to disagree".  For some reason, I've growo to care about the characters in a question just enough more that I'd like more.  In this case, it didn't work for you.  No worries.  I can see the other side of the coin.  (No pun meant this time.)

[Cuthbert Allgood]

I'm %60 through the book according to Kindle and at this point I just can't stop reading. Marcus and Yardem has been great, and "the day you throw me..." was a great looking Chekov's Gun, until it exploded Too soon! Too soon! I really loved Yardem and hoping THAT line was just a trick to fool readers and the gun would never explode..

I really love the magic system in books and i can think potentially exciting scenes / twists in future involving it.

I want to learn more about Spider Goddes and her priests, also I really hope to revisit their temple in future, I had a Tomb Raider 2: Barkhang Monastery vibe reading about the temple, loving that level, temple and Keshet has been my favourite location so far.

And a question that I also asked to Mr. Abraham on twitter: Kurtadam (=werewolf), Kuskhu (=doubt), Basrahip (=highpriest) all Turkish words..coincidence?

[Arthmail]

How can you like Yardem? The man is a name, at most.

[mormont]

I like Yarden. He's got a dry humour, some nice banter with Marcus, an interesting if not stunningly original background (former priest turned warrior for as yet undisclosed reasons), he's clearly intelligent, he's reliable, he's all this and a name too.

ETA - cuthbertallgood, that's interesting about the Turkish names/words.

Edited by mormont, 17 July 2012 - 04:19 PM.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

Arthmail, on 17 July 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

How can you like Yardem? The man is a name, at most.

How can you say that? Just because he isn't a POV character, doesn't make him just a name. Just like Master Kit, the guy has great parts, especially when he is nagging Marcus with teology stuff.

Mormont: There were some other Turkish words like that too, meaning the things they point in novel, but I forgot to take notes of them all. Like "Sinir Kushku" can mean "end of doubt" / "nerve of doubt " / "edge of doubt"

[Arthmail]

Bold Berthold, on 06 July 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

I thought it was completely understood that there is a backstory but that we don't know it yet. It is after all only the 2nd of 5 books.  Maybe we will never get it but I still assume that we will and that it will only add to the overall story.

I love Logen Ninefingers but I don't ever hear people complain that we don't know why he becomes possessed (or berserks or whatever).

Logen Ninefingers presented us with a character that had history. They detailed it, they related it through the eyes of other characters, namely his former men. It gave a sense of depth to the character. And come on, this is book 2 of 5 and we don't know a fucking thing about this character yet? That is a terrible character arc, at least for me. Any changes to his personality or motivation will feel rushed. Besides which, he's just a god damned name at this point. A few snarky remarks and a grade 4 level theological discussion does not make him Tyrion Lannister in terms of character development.

cuthbertallgood, on 18 July 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

How can you say that? Just because he isn't a POV character, doesn't make him just a name. Just like Master Kit, the guy has great parts, especially when he is nagging Marcus with teology stuff.

He has parts. They are not great parts. David Gemmell has more interesting characters that POV for three pages before they die.

You guys are all on crack. I think Abraham is a phenominal writer, especially the Long Price. And these books are good. But Marcus and Yardem are flat, stock characters. I should be seeing some sort of characterization within the first half of the book, not in book 3.

[mormont]

Arthmail: that a character doesn't work for you is a perfectly valid thing to say. But you're going much further here. You're telling people who say that the character works for them that they are wrong, that their reaction is invalid and baseless. That's... a much, much higher bar you're setting for yourself, and you're not clearing it. Worse, you're being kinda rude about it, which is not making your argument stronger - just making it less likely that anybody will be inclined to listen to it.

Several people have said that they do feel they know things about Yardem, enough to get a handle on him, and certainly enough for a character who's firmly a secondary non-POV in a multiple POV series that has only two short books to date. If you disagree, that's fine. But if you're only going to insist that everyone who disagrees with you is flat out factually wrong, or is 'on crack', well, that's not really a discussion.

Edited by mormont, 18 July 2012 - 03:29 AM.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

Arthmail, I will just quote you, from 15 min ago, " Future of Publishing" thread.

Quote

"Speaking of shit, what line am i crossing by thinking that Mevielle and Parker write shitty books. Are you the arbitrator of my tastes now? There was no common fallacy associated with my remarks, i was stating that there is already shit being published professionally, just as much as their is indie stuff that has little worth. This is all based on opinion."

Yet, here you are, the arbitrator of my tastes, telling me I'm on crack, the parts I thought are great are not great. OK.

[TrackerNeil]

Arthmail, on 18 July 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:

I should be seeing some sort of characterization within the first half of the book, not in book 3.

Agreed. Good characterization IMO happens almost instantly. Take, for example, the epilogue of A Storm of Swords. Merritt Frey doesn't get much time, but nonetheless I felt I had a pretty good handle on him. Admittedly, not every author is GRRM, but I certainly think that two books provide sufficient time for a better treatment than what Marcus got.

I've heard a good bit of praise for the Long Price series, even from some who have been critical of The Dagger and the Coin, so I think I will have to check that out.

[Sci-2]

Heh, Arthmail, remember that the rough style really [only] works when it's between you, me, Grack, and if I'm judging him correctly peterbound.

Been making that same mistake this week myself.

Edited by sciborg2, 18 July 2012 - 10:03 AM.

[mormont]

sciborg2, on 18 July 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

Heh, Arthmail, remember that the rough style really [only] works when it's between you, me, Grack, and if I'm judging him correctly peterbound.

Been making that same mistake this week myself.

Speaking as a moderator, it matters not at all who it's between: 'that rough style' is still best avoided in our eyes. Doesn't matter if you or Arthmail think it 'works' for you, or aren't offended by it: using it sets a certain tone and standard, and not only might you guys apply it inappropriately, others might copy it.

It's always better to be civil. If you prefer a rougher style, that's fine - but wiser kept to your own blogs.

ETA - this is advice, by the way, not meant to derail. If you feel the need to respond, use PM.

TrackerNeil, on 18 July 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

Agreed. Good characterization IMO happens almost instantly.

I took Arthmail to be saying pretty much the opposite, actually. His comparison to Logen Ninefingers implied as much - that his problem with Yardem is that not enough has been revealed. If we're talking instant reactions, then surely my reaction to Yardem is as valid as his?

Edited by mormont, 18 July 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[Sci-2]

Quote

I took Arthmail to be saying pretty much the opposite, actually. His comparison to Logen Ninefingers implied as much - that his problem with Yardem is that not enough has been revealed. If we're talking instant reactions, then surely my reaction to Yardem is as valid as his?

But Logen has a lot you can react to very early on. Tough guy, like a nice jock. The characterization builds from there.

Yardem starts off as sort of the big, quiet, loyal archetype. I think you can appreciate having the archetype in the story from jump, but I don't know if that's the same thing as liking the character.

[Arthmail]

I've been posting the same way for a long time, its not likely to change. I didn't realize i was being rough, but then again i'm stressed with work, so perhaps i'm coming off wrong.

Cuthbertallgood: Read the response that was given in its entirety. Whoever made mention of Meiville and Parker said i had crossed a line. I'm sorry, but what line? Is there a line? When did saying someone was on crack become biting personal commentary comparable to saying that i had crossed a line? Its a false equivalence. It is obvious that i am only giving my opinion on these books. I am arguing that i cannot see what people are going on about in terms of their love for Marcus and Yardem. Two books in and the names of Marcus's wife and child are not even given...they are just stock background flair. I don't find that particularily compelling.

Mormont: If there is a post that you feel i am being rude in, let me know, because i'm not seeing it. Perhaps i'm so detached at this point from stress that i'm flailing and screaming like an idiot, but i can't see how i would respond differently. I gave an idea of why Logen Ninefingers was a better character, and told people they were on crack. I've seen a hellofa lot worse on these boards than telling someone they are on crack.

Its pretty obvious when someone says, your on crack, that they are not personally attacking or trying to dictate another persons beliefs. Its as soft a statement as your crazy, or, you've lost your mind if you think Mitt Romney is not the worlds first dumb robot.

[TrackerNeil]

mormont, on 18 July 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

I took Arthmail to be saying pretty much the opposite, actually. His comparison to Logen Ninefingers implied as much - that his problem with Yardem is that not enough has been revealed. If we're talking instant reactions, then surely my reaction to Yardem is as valid as his?

I think it's best I let Arthmail speak for himself. He's not my alt.   And I don't know who Logen Ninefingers is anyway.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

Arthmail, on 18 July 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

Two books in and the names of Marcus's wife and child are not even given...

You are wrong. Their names (Alys and Merian) is written in the books. 3 times in first book, 8 times in second book to be precise.

[Arthmail]

cuthbertallgood, on 18 July 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

You are wrong. Their names (Alys and Merian) is written in the books. 3 times in first book, 8 times in second book to be precise.

My mistake. It obviously didn't impact. As a side note, are you Daniel Abraham? I doubt it, but i mean, how do you know the exact number of times? Did you actually go and count them? If so, your level of committment is something else.

I still don't feel like i know either of the characters, not like i know the others.

But lets change the discussion because this is going nowhere.

I'm curious who thinks Geder will eventually turn on the priests, or if he'll continue being their puppet. I mean, i think hes a sociopath so he would not break from them because of a moral stance, but i think perhaps they will slight him as he has been slighted before, and he'll take revenge.

[TrackerNeil]

Arthmail, on 18 July 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

I'm curious who thinks Geder will eventually turn on the priests, or if he'll continue being their puppet. I mean, i think hes a sociopath so he would not break from them because of a moral stance, but i think perhaps they will slight him as he has been slighted before, and he'll take revenge.

I have been wondering this myself. From what I recall, Geder makes a number of off-the-cuff major decisions, so I could see him being rash because he's angry about something Bashrahip does or says. Or, equally possibly, because he becomes afraid of keeping the priests around. We've seen that when Geder feels threatened he strikes first and counts the cost later.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

Arthmail, on 18 July 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

As a side note, are you Daniel Abraham? I doubt it, but i mean, how do you know the exact number of times? Did you actually go and count them? If so, your level of committment is something else.

I just had my Kindle in front of me, I remember their names so I made a 10 second search with Kindle's search function to check if they were mentioned enough.

About Geder, I want him to turn against them, only to be consumed by their power he let them have. I'm  almost %80 done with second book and it's about time we lose a major character, I'm starting to feel all 4 is safe from harm with them escaping every shitty situation somehow. This story will soon need a Joeffrey "BRING ME HIS HEAD" Baratheon  to stir things up...