53 replies to this topic

[Lord Damian]

As we have seen, the Kings in Westeros have the Kingsguard do dirty work as well as the Goldcloaks. I am wondering if Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Arthur Dayne helped string up Lord Rickard and Brandon to their deaths.

[Howling Mad]

I seriously doubt Barristan Selmy was involved since Robert pardoned him and kept him in service.  Ned refers to Ser Barristan as a man who's honor no one would doubt, something you probably wouldn't believe had he killed your father and brother.

[PrinceHenryris]

I personally doubt it.  Ned seems to speak highly of both of them.

[BondJamesBond]

PrinceHenryris, on 05 May 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

I personally doubt it.  Ned seems to speak highly of both of them.

I agree.  But why do these two get a pass from Ned but he holds a grudge against Jaime who actually slew King Aerys?  Doesn't make sense.

[Hear Us Roar]

No but they just stood around or would have just stood around if they were there. If ordered to kill them they would do it without a doubt.

[DirePenguin]

BondJamesBond, on 05 May 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

I agree.  But why do these two get a pass from Ned but he holds a grudge against Jaime who actually slew King Aerys?  Doesn't make sense.

Jaime was a sworn sword of the King's Guard. He broke his own oath when he slew the king. Robert pardoned Barristan because he was loyal and obey orders.  You can't say the same about Jaime.

And if that wasn't bad enough, there are other things such as the Lannisters not answering Robert's call for war, how they betrayed the late King, the corpses of children and babies, and on top of that, the way Jaime sat on the throne.

[Ravenhair]

I don't think Ser Barristan or Ser Arthur Dayne were there.  It is to Jaime's credit that he describes it in such detail to Catelyn that he was evidently horrified by the events himself.

[Evamitchelle]

DirePenguin, on 05 May 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

Jaime was a sworn sword of the King's Guard. He broke his own oath when he slew the king. Robert pardoned Barristan because he was loyal and obey orders.  You can't say the same about Jaime.

So it's better to be loyal to a pyromaniac murderer than not ? And Robert pardoned Jaime as well, or he wouldn't have stayed in the Kingsguard.

In any case there's a chance that Arthur Dayne was already at the Tower of the Joy, but he wouldn't have done anything if he'd been there anyway.

[Hear Us Roar]

DirePenguin, on 05 May 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

Jaime was a sworn sword of the King's Guard. He broke his own oath when he slew the king. Robert pardoned Barristan because he was loyal and obey orders.  You can't say the same about Jaime.

And if that wasn't bad enough, there are other things such as the Lannisters not answering Robert's call for war, how they betrayed the late King, the corpses of children and babies, and on top of that, the way Jaime sat on the throne.

Well it was rebellion. The honourable thing to do would have been to back the crown or stay out of it. Even Stannis had issues with rebelling and almost did not take part. Like Robert said, someone had to kill the Mad King, i do not think Ned holds special love for the guy after what he did to his family, he just did not like Jaime's personality. Killing the kids was necessary, because it would be inevitable that one day their would be a rebellion in their name and the realm would be destroyed again. It is distasteful but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the many. Dany and Viserys were planning on bringing a Dothraki horde, now she is bringing dragons and who knows what to reclaim what is "hers". If she had been killed with the children all that would have been averted.

[Pellaeon]

DirePenguin, on 05 May 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

Jaime was a sworn sword of the King's Guard. He broke his own oath when he slew the king. Robert pardoned Barristan because he was loyal and obey orders.  You can't say the same about Jaime.

And if that wasn't bad enough, there are other things such as the Lannisters not answering Robert's call for war, how they betrayed the late King, the corpses of children and babies, and on top of that, the way Jaime sat on the throne.

Jaimes fail wasn't killing the mad king, he saved an intier city with this action, is fail was parking his ass on the iron throne insted of protecting elia and her children

[MagnusPrime]

i feel that ned may have wanted to do the deed himself when it comes to Aerys. ned and the north got shafted when it came to the "spoils" of war.

also the children could have been warded by ned.

[Dornish Bannerman]

Ser Barristan says that he saw them get killed. But he did not do anything, or am I thinking about Jaime?

[LuisDantas]

Jaime did good by stopping Aerys, true.


But he chose not to tell his reasons, and he was sworn to protect Aerys.  It is only natural for people to despise him for such a direct betrayal of his vows, regardless of how despised Aerys could be.  Ned isn't being particularly judgemental in thinking ill of Jaime for it; he is only ignorant of the full circunstances, as is most anyone but Brienne.  That is why everyone, not only Ned, calls him Kingslayer as an insult.


Jaime only gets a pass from me as a reader because it was a situation of legitimate defense of many others, and he might well risk having someone else employ the wildfire if Aerys were not killed quickly.


As for Rickard and Brandon, no.  No way either Barristan or Dayne would take a direct part in killing them.  It goes against their characters and it can't be justified as part of the King's protection.  We have seen Barristan's thoughts on the matter, in page 736 of ADWD to be exact.  He is simply not that kind of man.

Edited by LuisDantas, 05 May 2012 - 03:34 AM.

[Talleyrand]

I think another reason some despise Jaime is not the fact that he killed the King but when he killed him. Jaime didn't stab him at the start of the rebellion or when he started burning high lords and his own Hand, instead he did it when the rebels were on the steps of the palace. I assume many saw that as a simple attempt to get on the winner's good side, much like Tywin was doing when he sacked KL in the first place.

[Despot]

Oh, it is quite possible that they were there. Maybe not Ser Arthur, who most probably was at a TJ at the time - but I do think that Ser Barristan
was there. I doubt that a presence of Ser Arthur would change anything.
The White Bull Hightower was definitely there.

As someone already said, they were loyal, and obey orders. It is one of the things that I like the most in the "GoT"  - often it isn't clear what
is honorable and right thing to do. To follow your oath, and let the Mad King to be mad, or to brake it, for a greater cause.

[Castel]

Lothbrok, on 05 May 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

I think another reason some despise Jaime is not the fact that he killed the King but when he killed him. Jaime didn't stab him at the start of the rebellion or when he started burning high lords and his own Hand, instead he did it when the rebels were on the steps of the palace. I assume many saw that as a simple attempt to get on the winner's good side, much like Tywin was doing when he sacked KL in the first place.

And people really need someone to blame here. It can't be Robert, because he was the winner, and he was on the other side from the beginning, Jaime was  traitor, and even worse, whenever he's called on it he clams up or cracks a joke instead of being honest, not that I think it would matter much to some.

As for the KG murdering the Starks, I don't think so. Aerys had a ton of other creatures better suited to this work, and if I recall the pyromancers were in at this time.

[Monk Meth-]

BondJamesBond, on 05 May 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

I agree.  But why do these two get a pass from Ned but he holds a grudge against Jaime who actually slew King Aerys?  Doesn't make sense.

Need respects them for sticking to their vows and honour.. even after all the fucked up shit they witnessed they still stayed true to their vows.. Ned values honour highly.  Jaime lannister killed his own king and turned against his vows... so need looked down on him as a dishonorable man and a turncloak. The way Ned sees it and the way he raised his kids is that you dont pay a man homage if you dont beleive he deserves it.  This is why Robb and Renly would have never allied if Renly had lived.. Because robb never saw him as the rightful heir to the throne and wouldn't bend the knee to him because of his fathers lessons.

[Jaehaerys Sand]

Lothbrok, on 05 May 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

I think another reason some despise Jaime is not the fact that he killed the King but when he killed him. Jaime didn't stab him at the start of the rebellion or when he started burning high lords and his own Hand, instead he did it when the rebels were on the steps of the palace. I assume many saw that as a simple attempt to get on the winner's good side, much like Tywin was doing when he sacked KL in the first place.

Yeah, he really needed to tell someone why he did it. I get the reasons why he didn't, he couldn't prove his claim, honor, blah blah blah, but it couldn't have hurt if he had tried.

[The Trumpet of Joramun]

They didn't help to murder him as such, i think. Being two men of honor, they would have felt it their duty to obey their king as his sworn bodyguards and protectors, however much they disliked what was being done.

[Ravenhair]

@Pellaeon

Ser Barristan does explain on pg. 737 that a Kingsguard's duty is to protect the King from harm.  It is purely the King's choice as to whether to extend Kingsguard protection to others, including wives and children.  We don't know if this was Aerys' custom, do we?  If not, Jaime may have thought househouold guards and knights were protecting her, along the lines of what Ser Barristan describes as some kings' preference.

So, Jaime, at his young age, slays Aerys, the King.   And so many readers, as well as Jaime himself, berate him for not protecting Elia and the children.  He just killed the King at age 17.  I do not think it's reasonable for his first thought to be of Elia and the children; that would be imbuing his character with superhuman qualities.  And where was Prince Lewyn Martell of the Kingsguard during all this?  Wouldn't you expect him to be guarding Elia and the children?

Jaime was there, and did the right thing.  He doesn't tell anyone because he's probably is of the mindset that excuses are assholes; everyone has one. It is not within Jaime's personality to go around seeking to explain his actions.  He lives with the guilt and inward and outward punishment.  

I cannot tell from ADWD if Ser Barristan was there; it's possible. I think Arthur Dayne was with Rhaegar.  

If you question Jaime's actions, just look at Ser Barristan's thoughts in ADWD:

"in that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys's son Aerys.  Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing.

That was not fair.  He did his duty.  Some nights, Ser Barristan wondered if he had not done that duty too well.  He had sworn his vows before the eyes of gods and men, he could not in honor go against them...but the keeping of those vows had grown hard in the last years of King Aerys's reign.  He had seen things that it pained him to recall, and more than once he wondered how much of the blood was on his own hands....".