63 replies to this topic

[princethomas]

seaflower, on 19 August 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

You could see the betrayal coming (she is a whore) but with twyin, whore hater? Really didnt see that one coming

Was it Hamlet that said, "Methinks Tywin doth protest too much."

After a while I started wondering about Tywin a little. At some point, I was like Dude Tywin, we get it, you don't like whores. Then I started thinking we'd find out he was a fan of the roundheels.

[ghost of Harrenhall]

I don't think that Varys planed  for Tyrion to kill Tywin. It would be better for the "master plan" to have Tywin to die later.
plus don't think that Varys could foresee a double murder, in the hands tower.killing sprees are not a charter treat of Tyrion. If you don't have all the pieces it just doesn't make sense. The thing that Varys was'it counting on is Tysha. oh Varys probably knew of Tysha, but not how mush she still means to him all these years later. For Tyrion never really talks about her much.
Furthermore  Varys could easily know that Jaime would try to free Tyrion ,but not what he would tell him or that Tyrion feel the need to have a chat with dad more important then fleeing from the city before his sister kills him.
       Shea was just the icing on a really bitter cake.

[Marc Hill]

princethomas, on 22 August 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

Was it Hamlet that said, "Methinks Tywin doth protest too much."

After a while I started wondering about Tywin a little. At some point, I was like Dude Tywin, we get it, you don't like whores. Then I started thinking we'd find out he was a fan of the roundheels.

Hahaha, yes...30 years without a lady wife means he must be satisfying his lion-like needs elsewhere.

[Edgy]

He should be too old to sew his oats at that age the dirty old man!

[DireDave]

Greywolf2375, on 08 May 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

And there is speculation that the secret tunnel that leads to the brothel was built for him - expanding just how much a hypocrite he may very well be.

It may be so, I originally thought that it was built for Jon Arryn but now I think it was older than that as Tyrion saw the three headed dragon on the floor which indicates to me it’s a Targaryen tunnel perhaps built by Maegor the Cruel.  Maybe Vary's set this up but I find it unlikely as he was freeing Tyrion under duress from Jaime.

[Saxony]

Its just like these gay men who publicly hate gays and call them an abomination and vote to deny their rights and then turn out to be gay.

[ParadiseSeeker]

I believe Tyrion was superpissed after what Jaime told him about Tysha, and that this fact about her was the last drop into his cup. His whole life he's been despised and hated and loathed by his father, mocked and overlooked, and when he finally did something right and good, he doesn't get any credit and is openly called an abomination and mother-killer. Than he's sentenced to death and THAN the only person from his family who has ever been a little kind to him confesses to lie to him. Along with that he realizes the only person he ever loved actually loved him back and he lost her. He storms into his father's chambers to have a face to face showdown and finds the girl he cared about so deeply in his father's bed AND with the hand chain on her (the said chain is used a lot as a symbol in Tyrion's POV). He so pissed he goes and threatens his father with a crossbow, but I believe that in this point Tywin still could've saved himself, if he actually put his pride away and use a bit of diplomacy - but no.

I like to believe that Varys did set this up, but not in that particular way. I think he somehow threw the girl in his bed somewhere around the trial, and they continued sleeping together ever since. I don't think even Varys could set it up so Shae was in Tywin's bed exactly the moment Tyrion crawled in. varys might have told her it's the only way to save herself from being hanged (as Tywin promised to Tyrion's whore), and the girl, knowing Varys as a helper in her affair with Tyrion, did as he said.

[Knight ofthe Laughing Tree]

Mephesto, on 18 July 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

The only thing about the whole scenario that I didn't get, what why did he lie to Jaime?   That plays strange to me.   He idolized him, and was saved by him, why would he lie to hurt him. Tysha couldn't have been the cause of that.   Otherwise he would have hated Jaime forever.

I think I totally disagree with that actually-- it was because of Tysha... he was almost disowning Jaimie with that lie so-to-speak.

[Bad Hound!]

Hi,

I've also just read that chapter, and I am surprised at how little GRRM writes about her death. HE just says that Tyrion twists and twists the chain, but there's nothing on how Tyrion feels, he doesn't even seem to stop afterwards, he doesn't look at Shae's lifeless body, nothing. I've had to read and re-read to make sure Shae is indeed dead. And even now, I'm not sure: is she really dead? There's nothing about her being actually dead. GRRM simply writes "after he was done, Tyrion....". Done doing what? Killing her? Or just hurting her? I know I am probably being stupid, but there is nothing in the chapter to say she is actually dead.

On a different topic, I was also surprised at how Varys lets Tyrion climb up, he doesn't protest much or anything, and I would have thought he would have wanted to keep the tunnels a secret. Since he doesn't do that, he clearly meant for Tyrion to climb up and kill Tywin. I am convinced of it. This can only mean he is conspiring against the Lannister. Either because he is against that house, full stop, or he thinks they are a bit too powerful, and he wants to counter that power a little bit. I guess we'll have to find out later.

[PetyrPunkinhead]

Varys planning to rescue Tyrion at the same time Twymin was shtupping Shae is a theory that never crossed my mind, but now that I've read it--it makes perfect sense and is just the sort of scheme Littlefinger would pull. Now, why would Varys want Tywin dead? Obvioulsy him dead leaves the Lanister hold on the Iron Throne much, much weaker. Cersei thinks she'd be as good a Hand as her pops, but can she pull it off? I find that doubtful. So, yeah, if Varys is out to rid the realm of Lanisters in the end, then well played.

Regardless of the motives, both Shae and Tywin got what they deserved. Impin' ain't easy.

[FacelessDude]

Bad Hound!, on 22 November 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Hi,

I've also just read that chapter, and I am surprised at how little GRRM writes about her death. HE just says that Tyrion twists and twists the chain, but there's nothing on how Tyrion feels, he doesn't even seem to stop afterwards, he doesn't look at Shae's lifeless body, nothing. I've had to read and re-read to make sure Shae is indeed dead. And even now, I'm not sure: is she really dead? There's nothing about her being actually dead. GRRM simply writes "after he was done, Tyrion....". Done doing what? Killing her? Or just hurting her? I know I am probably being stupid, but there is nothing in the chapter to say she is actually dead.

On a different topic, I was also surprised at how Varys lets Tyrion climb up, he doesn't protest much or anything, and I would have thought he would have wanted to keep the tunnels a secret. Since he doesn't do that, he clearly meant for Tyrion to climb up and kill Tywin. I am convinced of it. This can only mean he is conspiring against the Lannister. Either because he is against that house, full stop, or he thinks they are a bit too powerful, and he wants to counter that power a little bit. I guess we'll have to find out later.

She could still be alive, it's a possibility. What purpose would GRRM accomplish by keeping her alive in future books though!

[Odon]

It doesn't make sense that Varys set up Tywin's murder.  Tyrion only succeeds because he's lucky.  If Tywin had been in his room when Tyrion arrived he could have easily overpowered his dwarf son.  Even Varys could hardly know Tywin was going to visit the privy at that time.

[Horza]

Odon, on 11 March 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

It doesn't make sense that Varys set up Tywin's murder.  Tyrion only succeeds because he's lucky.  If Tywin had been in his room when Tyrion arrived he could have easily overpowered his dwarf son.  Even Varys could hardly know Tywin was going to visit the privy at that time.

I don't know, was it luck that there was a chest just beneath the crossbow (and bolts) hanging on the wall?

Was it luck that Shae seemed in a deeply relaxed state and didn't make much fuss about getting strangled?

Was it just pure coincidence that Tywin was welded to the privy that whole time?

If those are all coincidences, why does Varys give Tyrion the directions to Tywin's chamber, having just blown his own cover by getting him out of the Black Cells?

[Odon]

Horza, on 11 March 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

I don't know, was it luck that there was a chest just beneath the crossbow (and bolts) hanging on the wall?

Sure, why not?

Horza, on 11 March 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

Was it luck that Shae seemed in a deeply relaxed state and didn't make much fuss about getting strangled?

She's in a relaxed state because she just had sex.  Then when she sees Tyrion she tries putting on the charm until he strangles her, when there's a reference to her hands batting out his tears, implying she was convulsing and/or striking at him while being strangled.

Horza, on 11 March 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

Was it just pure coincidence that Tywin was welded to the privy that whole time?

Lots of people take their time on the toilet, even if they don't have newspapers to read in Westeros.

Horza, on 11 March 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

If those are all coincidences, why does Varys give Tyrion the directions to Tywin's chamber, having just blown his own cover by getting him out of the Black Cells?

This is the one area that implies Varys wanted something bad to happen - he just couldn't have controlled what, and to whom.

[Horza]

Odon, on 12 March 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

Sure, why not?

Awfully convenient though. Of the two other weapons on the wall it's the only one that gives Tyrion a chance against Tywin.

Quote

She's in a relaxed state because she just had sex.  Then when she sees Tyrion she tries putting on the charm until he strangles her, when there's a reference to her hands batting out his tears, implying she was convulsing and/or striking at him while being strangled.

Odd though, she just had to shout. Also, people fighting for their lives to bat away more than tears.

Quote

Lots of people take their time on the toilet, even if they don't have newspapers to read in Westeros.

It's possible, but taken in combination with the other factors you have to wonder, especially as:

Quote

This is the one area that implies Varys wanted something bad to happen - he just couldn't have controlled what, and to whom.

Why couldn't he have? As we've seen, it's a matter of a conveniently placed chest and a constipatorary concoction, the likes of which we have been introduced to, and maybe something else for Shae. It's the only thing that makes Varys' telling Tyrion how to get to Tywin's chambers a sensible idea, and Varys is pretty sensible.

[Odon]

It's just that one can take Varys or Littlefinger's ability to manipulate events too far.  Tryion was only mad enough to climb all those rungs in a risky bid to confront his father because Jaime happened to confess something he'd kept secret up till now.  Up till them Tyrion had only been brave when he didn't have any other option - faced with a clear means of escape, it's logical to suggest he'd do so.  And Varys giving Twyin something to make him go to the toilet still wouldn't account for the excellent timing of Tyrion's arrival in the Hand's chamber - no manipulator can time things that exactly.

The way I see it, Vary can't force Tyrion to come with him (through the tunnels, past the booby traps, and down the rungs cut into the cliff) so he lets Tyrion go ahead and waits to see what will happen.

[WhiteGuts]

I think it was pretty obvious that the whole Tysha thing set Tyrion off. At that point, he had already made the decision to kill his father. You can tell how bad he was hurt by the way he spoke to Jaime. It was the last straw.

At that point, he decided he won't take anymore shit from Tywin and went on to settle things. Finding Shae there was almost the least of it. Her death was mainly pay back for her treason at the trial.

Edited by WhiteGuts, 12 March 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[Robert Adrian Dizon]

Quote

At that point, he decided he won't take anymore shit from Tywin and went on to settle things. Finding Shae there was almost the least of it. Her death was mainly pay back for her treason at the trial.

A Lannister always pays his debts. The way they use this line, it really does mean they pay you back positively or negatively depending on what you've done for/against them.

[Traverys]

Shae had been in the hand's tower before. She had seen Tyrion wear the chain before when he was serving as hand. She knew Tywin was the hand presently as she testified in court with him as a judge.

What whore would don his chain, have sex with someone in his bed, and just linger there unless she felt comfortable? But we can also just turn to the text for the proof. I'm just going to quote what she says directly and summarize the action. My kindle says this starts on page 877 (total pages = 973).

Quote

"M'lord?" a woman's voice called.

Tyrion pulls back the drapes and sees her turning towards him with "a sleepy smile on her lips" which "died when she saw him." He asks if she was expecting someone bigger. She leans up, revealing she's wearing the hand's chain of office and:

Quote

Big wet tears filled her eyes. "I never meant those things I said, the queen made me. Please. Your father frightens me so."

Tyrion shares that he had spent all his time in the dungeons dreaming of her, in silk, rags, or nothing at all. She then replies

Quote

"M'lord will be back soon. You should go, or... did you come to take me away?"

Seems to me she knew exactly where she was and who she was pleasing.

I had completely forgotten that Varys mentioned that a previous hand use Chataya's  tunnel, as he was to proud to reveal his indulgence publicly. So if having sex with a whore seems out of character for Tywin it's because he took caution to hide his activity. Little surprise he resents his dwarf son for publicly bragging about his whores. Tywin probably wanted to show Shae the real "giant of lannister," forcing the woman his son used to openly to defy him to submit to him sexually.

And I honestly just think GRRM had Tywin on the privy so that he could add the line about the jape at the end of the chapter. All the events involving the crossbow and Tywin led up to that as a buh-dum-cha punch line.

And to address the smell of his corpse, I just thought it was fitting because he was a rotten man inside. It's a minimalistic interpretation of his smell, I admit. However, the Red Wedding proved that Tywin was willing to permit the unthinkable as long as it didn't sully House Lannister. I will give him the benefit of the doubt in regards to not knowing how brutal Ser Gregor was, but the Red Wedding is proof enough of how wicked this man could be. Shall we also cue Rains of Castamere?

I just see these "TYWIN DOESN'T LIE WITH WHORES!!" argument a lot and I don't really see the grounds. Tywin was only concerned about keeping the Lannister name clean and lawful in appearance. In D&D talk this is called Lawful Evil. He acts within the bounds of the law (as far as appearances are concerned) and administers it to anyone that dares to defy him. He rose the House back into greatness and wanted it to stay that way for centuries after he was gone.

Don't confuse the book with the tv show character. Which, I must say, I am a fan of TV Tywin.

Edited by Traverys, 16 March 2013 - 05:01 PM.

[KingAlanI]

I thought he was still devoted to his dead wife Joanna, and losing her birthing Tyrion was one reason he hated Tyrion. Come to think of it, maybe that's just the image he wanted to project, and maybe this has to do with why Shae turned agaisnt Tyrion at trial.