281 replies to this topic

[David Selig]

Tyrion's "good nature"...

I wonder how many more people does he have to murder and rape before the fans start seeing the he's not a good person at all? 5? 10?

[Natalie_S]

David Selig, on 07 May 2012 - 03:46 AM, said:

Tyrion's "good nature"...

I wonder how many more people does he have to murder and rape before the fans start seeing the he's not a good person at all? 5? 10?

He raped Tysha when he was 13 and literally forced by his father, ending up scarred for life by this event. I don't think you can hold this against him.

As to killing, yes, ASOIAF is a brutal universe, and he's acting according to its rules.
We can't judge him only by modern, real life, 21st century standards.
The character wouldn't have been realistic if he eventually didn't kill anyone, and he's a bit of a anti-hero, but this doesn't mean that he's a monster.
The way I see him, he is a good person that lived through horrible things that leaved a sign of him, but i think that even if he's trying to convince himself and the rest of the world that he's a monster, deep down he's still a good person.

[Lyanna Stark]

Natalie_S, on 07 May 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

He raped Tysha when he was 13 and literally forced by his father, ending up scarred for life by this event. I don't think you can hold this against him.

As to killing, yes, ASOIAF is a brutal universe, and he's acting according to its rules.
We can't judge him only by modern, real life, 21st century standards.
The character wouldn't have been realistic if he eventually didn't kill anyone, and he's a bit of a anti-hero, but this doesn't mean that he's a monster.
The way I see him, he is a good person that lived through horrible things that leaved a sign of him, but i think that even if he's trying to convince himself and the rest of the world that he's a monster, deep down he's still a good person.

Tyrion is neither "good" nor "bad". He has the capability to be both, and have shown he can be both. He is Tywin's son and shows many of the same traits. Tywin was a loyal and loving husband to Joanna, but he was also ruthless, cruel and cold when it came to politics and the honour of his house. In addition, Tywin spent his entire life trying to fix what he felt where the problems his father has caused. Tyrion also has a very troubled relationship with Tywin and Tywin treats him appallingly, which is certainly behind some of Tyrion's deep seated issues.

In any case, Tyrion murdered his father. Whatever else happens, that will be a deep stain on his soul. In Westeros, nobody is as accursed as the kinslayer and Tyrion knows it, and will have to live with that.

[Natalie_S]

Lyanna Stark, on 07 May 2012 - 04:04 AM, said:

Tyrion is neither "good" nor "bad". He has the capability to be both, and have shown he can be both.

That's probably why I like the character so much, he's realistic.
I think that everyone has both light and shadow in their soul, and that is beautifully depicted by GRRM way of writing.

Lyanna Stark, on 07 May 2012 - 04:04 AM, said:

In any case, Tyrion murdered his father. Whatever else happens, that will be a deep stain on his soul. In Westeros, nobody is as accursed as the kinslayer and Tyrion knows it, and will have to live with that.

Oh weeeell... I'm sorry, I know I'm biased, but I really despised Tywin (I thought he was a horrible, horrible person), and when Tyrion killed him i was like "Yes! Well done! High five!".

Edited by Natalie_S, 07 May 2012 - 04:21 AM.

[Lummel]

Tyrion is a Lannister of Casterly Rock and a son of Tywin.  He feels himself to be entitled to power and respect.  He's by no means the worst character in the book but he does have a singer stewed to death and he kills a woman for embarrassing him.  But he's witty so it's easy to let him off for slapping women, hating his family (not that he comes from a happy family, but still), threatening violence and being indifferent to the sufferings of people who are beneath his notice.

[Natalie_S]

Lummel, on 07 May 2012 - 04:50 AM, said:

But he's witty so it's easy to let him off for slapping women,

Are you talking about Cersei?
Because I remember Cersei slapping him, and he blocked her hand at some point.
And i remember sort of slapping Penny to block her panic attack, but that hardly counts.

Lummel, on 07 May 2012 - 04:50 AM, said:

hating his family (not that he comes from a happy family, but still),

If a family is full of despicable people who treated a person appallingly all their life, is it a crime to hate them?
Sounds like sensible to me.

Lummel, on 07 May 2012 - 04:50 AM, said:

threatening violence

Not sure what you are referring to here.
If you talk about his revenge on Jaime and Cersei, we'll see what happens when he actually gets there.
Most of the time, when he promises violence, it's just bluff (and he thinks that himself in his POV, like when he threatens to hurt Tommen with Cersei).

Lummel, on 07 May 2012 - 04:50 AM, said:

being indifferent to the sufferings of people who are beneath his notice.

He's not always aware of the smallfolk's problems, because he always led a rich and privileged (even if he didn't feel that way) existence.
But he did his best... you can't blame someone for not being omniscient.

Edited by Natalie_S, 07 May 2012 - 05:05 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Natalie_S, on 07 May 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

Are you talking about Cersei?
Because I remember Cersei slapping him, and he blocked her hand at some point.
And i remember sort of slapping Penny to block her panic attack, but that hardly counts.

He slaps Shae as well, and quite hard.

There are several occasions where Tyrion dismisses the suffering of those beneath him, or he goes all Tywin and thinks of the greater good, both in Kings Landing but also later in Mereen where he ponders how the wells should have been poisoned etc etc. Tyrion has a great capability to be cold and ruthless, just as Tywin did.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 07 May 2012 - 05:07 AM.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

I honestly blame the show for not really being able to see the bad in Tyrion. I can't get Peter Dinklage's face out of my head when I read Tyrion's chapters, and I just can't consider him to be evil.

[Lummel]

I'm saying Natalie S, that he's not a good person.  A good character in the book to read about, interesting and sympathetic, but he's not a good person.

[Natalie_S]

It all comes down to what you think a good person is, ultimately.
But that would be off topic, I suppose.

Edited by Natalie_S, 07 May 2012 - 05:16 AM.

[Lummel]

someone who doesn't stew people is the definition that I try to abide with in daily life, gods know it's hard sometimes...

[Natalie_S]

ahaha, I see your point... but I can think of a couple of people that I'd make an exception for!
I'd like them so much better stewed!

[Kittykatknits]

Natalie_S, on 07 May 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

I really liked the description of Sansa and Tyrion's marriage, because it showed that they were basically good people trying not to hurt each other, but the events raised a wall between them.
Tyrion was a Lannister, and even though he showed care and sensitivity towards Sansa, she just couldn't bring herself to trust him because he saw him as part of the family that killed most of her own family, and made her live as a prisoner in a city where she couldn't trust anyone.
On the other hand, Tyrion was desperately starving for a human contact and Sansa's armour of cold courtesy was the most hurtful behaviour she could have with him.
Besides, there's Tyrion's looks and the fact that Sansa has lived all her life dreaming of a charming prince: the husband she finds beside her is the most different man possible from what she wished for, and that's another barricade between them.
It would require a certain degree of maturity from Sansa to get over his physical appearance and eventually see his good nature and even his charms, but she's far too young for that.
But if they'll ever meet again when she's older... who knows!

(the SanSan shipper in me is hurting while I write this, though!)

Tyrion was basically a good person? Let's look at his previous relationship to see how he is a good person, shall we? He slapped Shae, kept her isolated and miserable, put her in danger because he was selfish, told her that the only thing he valued was between her legs, and he killed her. Truly, those are the actions of a good person.

And as for Sansa, she is attracted to a man who had half his face burned off. She knows that Willas is a cripple yet agrees to marry him, telling herself that she would be a good wife and make him love her. That is not the thoughts of someone who only cares about looks or physical appearance. And she did realize that there were good aspects to him. She is flat out states that he did her kindnesses and is grateful that he did not force her to consumate the mariage. But, he is still a Lannister and she still does not want to be married to him,

Natalie_S, on 07 May 2012 - 03:44 AM, said:

I strongly disagree.
He's literally haunted by this memory, it's probably the most traumatic experience in his life.
He tries to rationalize it and say "it wasn't a rape because she was a prostitute and that was the job that paid her living", but it's clear that deep down he never quite accepted it.
In fact when Bronn says that he would have killed the man if somebody ever did to him what Tywin did to Tyrion, he answers "Maybe one day I will, a Lannister always pays his debts" (sorry, I don't have the book with me, I'm quoting from my memory).
Wanting to kill his own father for what he did is an evident proof that he wasn't fine with what happened to Tysha.

You are right, he is haunted by it. He is haunted by what happened to HIM.
He tries to rationalize it, he is upset and bitter over the fact that another woman didn't love him and was just a whore. He even alludes to this when he tells Sansa the story. He regrets what happens to Tysha AFTER he learns that she was not a whore.

Here's the thing though. She was a human being and she was his wife. The correct response to something like this is to be upset and shocked that , regardless of whether she was a prostitute. He was her husband, he gave her his cloak of protection. If he could not stop it, then he should have done something afterwards Did he ever try to look for her? Did he ever apologize? He did nothing.

And you are right, what he did to his father is proof that he was not happy about it. But, again, this was AFTER Jaime told him the truth. It is in Dragons that he starts asking where whores go. This is when we see him realizing that what happened to her was wrong. Before this, it was about him

Yes, truly, he was a good man.

[David Selig]

Kittykatknits, on 07 May 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

You are right, he is haunted by it. He is haunted by what happened to HIM.
He tries to rationalize it, he is upset and bitter over the fact that another woman didn't love him and was just a whore. He even alludes to this when he tells Sansa the story. He regrets what happens to Tysha AFTER he learns that she was not a whore.

Here's the thing though. She was a human being and she was his wife. The correct response to something like this is to be upset and shocked that , regardless of whether she was a prostitute. He was her husband, he gave her his cloak of protection. If he could not stop it, then he should have done something afterwards Did he ever try to look for her? Did he ever apologize? He did nothing.

This so much.

Natalie_S, on 07 May 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

As to killing, yes, ASOIAF is a brutal universe, and he's acting according to its rules.
We can't judge him only by modern, real life, 21st century standards.
The character wouldn't have been realistic if he eventually didn't kill anyone, and he's a bit of a anti-hero, but this doesn't mean that he's a monster.
The way I see him, he is a good person that lived through horrible things that leaved a sign of him, but i think that even if he's trying to convince himself and the rest of the world that he's a monster, deep down he's still a good person.

Who said he's a monster? I said he's not a good person.

BTW, according to the morality of Westeros, Tyrion has committed the worst possible crime - kinslaying. By ours he's a multiple murderer. Either way he's really far from a good person in my book.

Edited by David Selig, 07 May 2012 - 05:55 AM.

[Kittykatknits]

David Selig, on 07 May 2012 - 03:46 AM, said:

Tyrion's "good nature"...

I wonder how many more people does he have to murder and rape before the fans start seeing the he's not a good person at all? 5? 10?

Jcooper, on 07 May 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

I honestly blame the show for not really being able to see the bad in Tyrion. I can't get Peter Dinklage's face out of my head when I read Tyrion's chapters, and I just can't consider him to be evil.

Agree on both counts. I think the show and Dinklakge will influence many new fans to the series. I'm expecting a strong round of backlash against Sansa when they are married next season. His character has been white-washed on the show.

As for the actual character himself, Martin has said more than once that Tyrion is his favorite. I think this comes across in the writing and he sometimes fails at depicting Tyrion accurately. He's very witty and there are many aspects to him that we should feel sympathy. But, some of the bad things he does are written in a way that can lead those actions to either be overlooked or mitigated. His treatment of Tysha and Shae and killing his father are some examples. I didn't do a fist pump when he killed Tywin. I realized that he crossed a moral event horizon that he will probably never recover from.

Natalie_S, on 07 May 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

He raped Tysha when he was 13 and literally forced by his father, ending up scarred for life by this event. I don't think you can hold this against him.

As to killing, yes, ASOIAF is a brutal universe, and he's acting according to its rules.
We can't judge him only by modern, real life, 21st century standards.
The character wouldn't have been realistic if he eventually didn't kill anyone, and he's a bit of a anti-hero, but this doesn't mean that he's a monster.
The way I see him, he is a good person that lived through horrible things that leaved a sign of him, but i think that even if he's trying to convince himself and the rest of the world that he's a monster, deep down he's still a good person.

Even if we don't hold the brutal gang rape of his wife against him, it's perfectly fair to judge him for his future actions, whether in a modern or Westeros context.
And if we can't judge him only by "modern, real life 21st century standards" then lets look at him by Westeros standards only. He's a kinslayer. No one is more accursed than a kinslayer in Westeros.

No one is calling him a monster. But that does not mean he is a good man. He is a man who has done some some good things and some bad things. He was a friend to Jon and didn't force Sansa to to have sex when he saw that she was unwilling. But, that does not mean it is ok to rape prostitutes or commit multiple murder.

[Lummel]

Kittykatknits, on 07 May 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

Agree on both counts. I think the show and Dinklakge will influence many new fans to the series. I'm expecting a strong round of backlash against Sansa when they are married next season. His character has been white-washed on the show.

As for the actual character himself, Martin has said more than once that Tyrion is his favorite. I think this comes across in the writing and he sometimes fails at depicting Tyrion accurately...

I don't know, I think this is deliberate and one of those things that emerged for me on the re-reads.  First time round I found it easy to go with the flow, but after a certain number of re-reads you can't ignore the dark side of his character, particularly once you take into account that we see him most from his own POV which is, ahem, in some respects the least critical.

On TV I imagine he's going to come across harsher.  In his POV he can think to himself that the slap was 'just' a light one.  On TV you just see a powerful person slap a powerless person.

[Kittykatknits]

Lummel, on 07 May 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

I don't know, I think this is deliberate and one of those things that emerged for me on the re-reads.  First time round I found it easy to go with the flow, but after a certain number of re-reads you can't ignore the dark side of his character, particularly once you take into account that we see him most from his own POV which is, ahem, in some respects the least critical.

On TV I imagine he's going to come across harsher.  In his POV he can think to himself that the slap was 'just' a light one.  On TV you just see a powerful person slap a powerless person.

But you are a member of this board and have engaged in re-reads. Most casual fans of the show or the books will do neither. I also just went with the flow the first time around which is what the vast majority of the new fans will be doing as well.

[Lummel]

Kittykatknits, on 07 May 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

But you are a member of this board and have engaged in re-reads. Most casual fans of the show or the books will do neither. I also just went with the flow the first time around which is what the vast majority of the new fans will be doing as well.

The nights are dark and full of terrors.

Lots of books yield secrets only after re-reads.  Most of us readers I would guess don't love books that hit us with obvious messages and I suppose one reason that we do battle down here in the bear pit is to try and show one another that there is more than one way of seeing what is going on in these books.  Still you can't force a person to become a careful and cunning reader, but given a choice between the subtle book and THE ONE WITH THE REALLY CLEAR MESSAGE, I know which one I prefer!

[Woman of War]

But whether Tyrion is seen as a more or less evil  person - what influence will the different ideas readers concerning Tyrion's morality have on the outcome of the so far existing marriage of Tyrion and Sansa? Will Tyrion being a darker character at second thought make it less likely for Martin to keep the couple together, in which way ever?

There are two questions to be separated in the debate:
Are posters discussing here their own personal  like or dislike for the possibility that Sansa and Tyrion might end as couple after the books are over or at least as tragic lovers at some point of the story?
OR are posters here discussing the plot logic whether any of this may happen and the likelihood of Maritn writing it?
First of all Sansa is a person of Westeros herself , she obviously will apply westerosi ideas of morality, apart from the simple fact that a lot of things Tyrion may have done are not known to Sansa and maybe never will be. And things Sansa may do in the Vale possibly will never be known To Tyrion. So I guess their evaluation of each other will mainly depend of events yet to come and the dissolution of misunderstandings about what happened back in Kings Landing. Both may be rather different personalities if they ever meet again who are able to to reevaluate people - and each other - with a very different background.
Given the fact that both protagonists are wanted as kingslayers and Tyrion on top has killed his own father GRRM will have to install some interesting plot twists and some ambitious writing if he wants to make them both survive the books (both protagonists have considerable  plot armour so far, stretching all likelihood )and that in a manner which might count as at least not more bitter that sweet.
Would Sansa, being a Westerosi person,  e.g. react absolutely abhorred by the murder of Shae and Tywin or understanding, given Tyrion's private history? We could speculate here but Martin will tell us.
So all boils down to what the author's intention about the story might be, since he will certainly not let us readers vote for the outcome.

Edited by Woman of War, 07 May 2012 - 07:15 AM.

[Natalie_S]

Kittykatknits, on 07 May 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

Tyrion was basically a good person? Let's look at his previous relationship to see how he is a good person, shall we? He slapped Shae, kept her isolated and miserable, put her in danger because he was selfish, told her that the only thing he valued was between her legs, and he killed her. Truly, those are the actions of a good person.

Well, first of all we should consider that Shae wasn't his girlfriend, but she was a prostitute and a former camp follower.
From her point of view, being with Tyrion, albeit in danger and sometimes isolated, was a huge improvement from her previous lifestyle.
She complained when she had to pretend to be a maid, but still didn't want to let her client go. He was a valuable investment for her.

Of course, if we consider the whole situation from a RL, 21st century point of view, it's not a great relationship.
But when you read a book set in another universe, that follows its own rules, you have to suspend your disbelief and go along with the story.
You may think that in real life a man who has to pay for sex is doing a despicable thing, but in Westeros prostitution is a perfectly legal job, so it's ok.
I think you have to judge a character also according to the culture they're living in.

Kittykatknits, on 07 May 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

And as for Sansa, she is attracted to a man who had half his face burned off. She knows that Willas is a cripple yet agrees to marry him, telling herself that she would be a good wife and make him love her. That is not the thoughts of someone who only cares about looks or physical appearance. And she did realize that there were good aspects to him. She is flat out states that he did her kindnesses and is grateful that he did not force her to consumate the mariage. But, he is still a Lannister and she still does not want to be married to him,

I'm not saying that Sansa is shallow or superficial. I don't think she is.
I also think that she genuinely tried to be a good wife to Tyrion, as much as she could, but she was not in the situation to take care of anyone's feelings because she's depressed (for good reasons!) and on the edge of breaking down.
Still, I believe that attraction is a complex thing, and it changes during a person's life.
You can see that teenage girls are often attracted to ephebic or androgynous types, while later in life they appreciate people that at that time they would have simply labelled as "ugly". They start to be more sensitive to other qualities other than just physical beauty: charm, charisma, I don't know how to describe it, but sometimes very ugly men can be very attractive too.
But for Sansa, at 13, this is too much of a leap. She can appreciate Tyrion kindness but she can't help find him repulsive.

Kittykatknits, on 07 May 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

You are right, he is haunted by it. He is haunted by what happened to HIM.
He tries to rationalize it, he is upset and bitter over the fact that another woman didn't love him and was just a whore. He even alludes to this when he tells Sansa the story. He regrets what happens to Tysha AFTER he learns that she was not a whore.

Here's the thing though. She was a human being and she was his wife. The correct response to something like this is to be upset and shocked that , regardless of whether she was a prostitute. He was her husband, he gave her his cloak of protection. If he could not stop it, then he should have done something afterwards Did he ever try to look for her? Did he ever apologize? He did nothing.

And you are right, what he did to his father is proof that he was not happy about it. But, again, this was AFTER Jaime told him the truth. It is in Dragons that he starts asking where whores go. This is when we see him realizing that what happened to her was wrong. Before this, it was about him

Yes, truly, he was a good man.

First of all, when he says that maybe one day he'll get Tywin for what he has done to Tysha, it's in AGOT, so much earlier than when he discovered the truth about Tysha.
Then, even if he never state it, remorse about Tysha is all over his chapters. He talks about it everytime he can (it doesn't take a psychologist to analyse that), to Bronn, to Sansa, to himself, he dreams about her when he's been wounded, he's literally obsessed.

I believe you have to consider again the world they're living in.
What he has been taught all his life is that whores get paid for sex, and that's their job. There's no such thing as human rights in Westeros.
He's been brought up by Tywin, who sent his father's lover naked in the streets, and who told him that the gang rape was the correct way to deal with a women that had deceived him into marrying her, that had made a fool of him and brought ridicule on the House Lannister.
At 13, he has no way not only to stop the deed, but also to rationalise it, to understand that his father is a mad man. That's the education he's receiving.
We can only imagine what Tywin said and did to him when he got back to Casterly Rock: he probably made him feel so ashamed of himself and so humiliated (again, he was 13!!!) that probably he didn't even realise that he could (and should have) gone to look for Tysha, apologise, ask her the truth or whatever.

Still, he knows that this is wrong. He can't vocalise why it is wrong, because his culture and his upbringing taught him that a prostitute's job is having sex, and she did and was paid for it, so it should be fine.
But he's haunted by the memory, as only someone who's feeling deeply guilty can be.
He's in a clash between emotions and mind, between what he feels and what his taught he SHOULD feel, or actually what he shouldn't feel.
His father's influence is still so strong in his life and he can't question his authority yet (also Cersei is in a constant, useless effort to gain Tywin's approval).
But then, Jaime tells him the truth: Tysha was not a whore, just a girl.
The little excuse that kept all his hatred for Tywin and his state of mind on a sort of balance ("she was a whore, it was her job, it was no big deal to her") falls apart and he completely breaks down, releasing all the emotions and rage that he had kept in himself for all those years.

Tyrion does very bad things, but still I can't see him as an evil character.
I see only as a person who got through an awful lot of horrible things (his childhood, his education, lack of affection from his family, the way he's treated by his father, the constant way in which he constantly remind him that no one could ever love him but only be interested in fool him to get his money or to harm the Lannister family etc...).
He's part light and part shadow, but I believe that the good in him is stronger than his dark side.
He's in a really dark place in ADWD, but I think that he will eventually overcome all this and end up doing something really good and heroic in the future books.

Edited by Natalie_S, 07 May 2012 - 07:24 AM.