281 replies to this topic

[Woman of War]

But Rapsie, we know all this and most posters do not deny it. We may though differ in interpretations.
  Of course Tyrion as partner would demand a definitely adult and independently thinking woman who is not afraid or hadicapped by courtesies to insist on her position in a relationship because she knows that she, this imaginary character,, is not in the world to please others but has her own life to live. A woman who simply turns her back when she feels demeaned. So far, this person is not Sansa, agreed. And I have no idea if there will be another one for Tyrion or who might that be.
And, of course, every cheesy shipping stuff we are doing here for our amusement includes the idea of romantic love, of falling for each other, of really working camaraderie or quiet happiness, having a common goal. Something that would turn into reflections of further political marriages to create peace or, worse, power, is a different topic to discuss. We are here on the level of the author's intentions towards an unfinished story arc. This arc may be used for a shrewd lovestory or not, but I do not think that the marriage problem will have that totally anticlimactic ending of a banal annullment.
Though, crackpot,  imagine a repetition of history this time as farce? tragedy? joke?, making the two marry again out of free will? The author would have a really hard time to make the necessary character changes believable. But  I think somewhere that one  love sparkle will happen in the books, like there will be the one person  who stays pure at heart, I am thinking of Brienne.
So, if Tyrion were a terrible husband may very much depend on Martin's intention to introduce that inexplicable sparkle of LOVE into a horrible world, as a very small genre quotation, maybe only to be extinguished by some sadly dramatic deaths. So far the author  has only given us  mostly gruesome interpretations of heterosexual love and the only romantic crush was Sansa's on Joffrey or, as true love, and let's recognize it as such, the relationship of Jaime and Cersei until it got stale.
If GRRM decides to introduce the plot defining or plot interfering love story someone's misogynistic behavour in other beds will hardly matter. It may matter though for the evaluation and possible dislike of some readers for a character like Tyrion - for others it adds to its complexity and description of a troubled soul.
But readers' dislike or like will certainly not influence the plotline and Martin is no marriage counselor.
Of course characters who are wanted for murder may have some practical problems to reintegrate into Martinworld society. But storywise we should distinguish between our moral reservations as knowitall POV readers and the viewpoint of the acting characters. And the author does not construct a storyline by having his readers as imaginary marriage counselors in mind, he constructs the story around the knowledge and the development of his protagonists.
Every RL person in a sound mind would agree that Sansa should have at least five years of school ahead of her, some boyfriends (or girlfriends) her own age to try out lovelife, find a job and then she may think of starting a close relationship with kids and all the stuff. In RL a relationship between an older guy and a fourteen year old is doomed to be wrong no matter of the legal situation. And Tyrion would have needed years of therapeutic help to overcome his family issues and to build some self esteem. (not mentioning that in RL 90% of the high nobility characters would be in prison, beginning with Tywin for mistreating his handicapped child and sooo much else, ending with Ned for beheading deserters without proper trial)
So naming Tyrion's various character flaws, he has them, as making him unfit for a succesful longterm relationship may not get the point of what Martin intends to do with his story. I predict: if there is ever a true love story for Tyrion, however short, it will make a real impression on the plot. There may be Tysha, there may be a character yet unexpected, there may be Sansa - or there may be, sadly, nothing at all. Although Tyrion's craving for love is plotwise a kind of chekhov's gun., leading to disaster or bittersweetness.

[brashcandy]

Woman of War, on 19 May 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

I for example believe, were we in RL, a relationship like San/San would be doomed go end in domestic violence as soon as the little bird develops an identity of her own and outgrows a lover who has so much less to offer concerning status, social competence and education and who would react to those feelings of inferiority with his learned pattern of violence. But this does of course not mean that we won't get a wonderful story of Sandor dying for his little bird as her true and faithful knight - if Martin wants this.

Why would Sandor of all people, who wanted Sansa to see the reality of the danger around her, to grow up and realise that knights were not the sweet, gallant types she had idealised, abuse Sansa when she begins to develop an "identity" and mature? I would expect he would be the happiest person at this development which would bring her nearer to his way of thinking and out of danger. Indeed, when he hears that she has left Tyrion, he thinks it's a good thing that the little bird shit on the Imp's head and flew away, i.e. it's great that Sansa is beginning to show some independent self-will and not allowing herself to be a pawn for the rest of her life. But do you really know who might show some inclination to abuse a woman who doesn't correspond to the ideal of the happy whore, or satisfied lover, and who begins to display an actual personality? Tyrion. How do I know this? Well, it's actually written in the text, that obscure work which I prefer to base my analyses on, not pull them out of thin air.

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And if I believe a plot to be very unlikely, well, the author needs not share my opinion.......
So there is definitely no reason to rule out the possibility of Sansa and Tyrion ending up together. The author may have his reasons to write this.

Again, saying it's GRRM work and he can make anything happen doesn't really make sense. Sure, he could get up one morning and decide to write that Dany was in Westeros all along. Or he could write Sansa and Moonboy having a passionate love affair. Actually, I'd be more inclined to believe that than I would her and Tyrion ending up together.

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Concerning a morally different shade of grey in the two protagonists we are discussing: Tyrion was about the same age Sansa is now when the Tysha rape happened, a probably nice and loveable child until then, afterwards a troubled personality. So we do not know what may become of Sansa when the story goes on, she may commit horrible crimes, become a seriously disturbed person and the "moral equilibrium" between the two characters may be turned around.

Unless they've been subjected to serious trauma (and even then), characters don't simply do a 180 in terms of their personalities and the qualities we've seen them display. That would be called bad writing. Ultimately, whilst I do think there's room for Sansa's character to become a lot greyer, I don't see her suddenly turning into a person who's comfortable committing horrible crimes. Even when we look at Arya's arc now, it's related to the trauma and isolation she's felt from losing her family, and being on the run, but it's a storyline that makes sense based on Arya's characterisation as being a bit rash, judgmental and prone to violent outbursts.

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So far, if Sansa stays the way she is, which maybe won't happen, I indeed agree:
Tyrion should find someone adult, more outgoing, with a sense of humour and intellectual curiosity. Having the same social or class background is not enough, I could imagine that  a woman of less exquisite lineage who is eager to learn and willing to think outside prefabricated patterns fits better than Sansa  - so far -  who has yet to grow beyond some limitations given by her upbringing. Well, she is only fourteen, a child actually, you can't expect her to have a certain detached look at herself, something that is the base of all personal development and of a healthy self irony. Though circumstances may force her .....

So you're basically trying to assert that Sansa has no positive character traits outside of her noble birth? This is nonsense. We've seen Sansa being able to enjoy laughing and talking with her friends. She's extremely outgoing as well - she likes going to tourneys, she's the one who even wanted to dance at her own forced marriage, and when she's journeying to the Gates of the Moon, she wonders what she will do when she hears the music playing. As for not being intellectually curious   I'm really tired of seeing this written about her character. Sansa is the one who knows all the stories and songs, as she reads a lot. She may not been in to heavy literature, but that's because she was prone to be a romantic young girl and she's still quite young. But just in case you're not convinced by my words, here's some textual evidence:

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He bewitched them, Alayne thought as she lay abed that night listening to the wind howl outside her windows. She could not have said where the suspicion came from, but once it crossed her mind it would not let her sleep. She tossed and turned, worrying at it like a dog at some old bone. Finally, she rose and dressed herself, leaving Gretchel to her dreams.

That was taken from AFFC, wherein you'll find lots more examples of Sansa's intellectual curiosity and her pleasure at being able to figure out the motives behind LF's machinations.

Edited by brashcandy, 20 May 2012 - 11:07 AM.

[Rapsie]

Woman of War, on 20 May 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

But Rapsie, we know all this and most posters do not deny it. We may though differ in interpretations.
  Of course Tyrion as partner would demand a definitely adult and independently thinking woman who is not afraid or hadicapped by courtesies to insist on her position in a relationship because she knows that she, this imaginary character,, is not in the world to please others but has her own life to live. A woman who simply turns her back when she feels demeaned.

Tyrion has so far balked at any woman who is not exceptionally attractive and young. Septa Lemore, who was indeed intelligent, he thought of as someone he didn't want to get to know, he just wanted to sleep with her.  Penny he sees as dwarf and completely unsuitable despite them actually getting on together. In fact he uses Sansa as a way of keeping her at arms length. He reacted with violence to Shae when she told him the truth to his face and when she tried to talk to him about not harming her friend the singer (whom he later had killed),

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"He won't - " she started.
Tyrion covered her mouth with his own. He's had enough talk; he needed the sweet simplicity of the pleasure he found between Shae's thighs.

Well I think he really didn't value her as a person at all.

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And, of course, every cheesy shipping stuff we are doing here for our amusement includes the idea of romantic love, of falling for each other, of really working camaraderie or quiet happiness, having a common goal. Something that would turn into reflections of further political marriages to create peace or, worse, power, is a different topic to discuss. We are here on the level of the author's intentions towards an unfinished story arc. This arc may be used for a shrewd lovestory or not, but I do not think that the marriage problem will have that totally anticlimactic ending of a banal annullment.

Cheesy: slang for not acceptable in a manner that most would think is embarrassing or just not "cool", Trite, contrived, cliche. Often of poor quality; shoddy.
Shrewd: showing clever resourcefulness in practical matters, artful, tricky or cunning

I notice in a lot of your posts your refer to discussion about romantic possibilities for characters as Cheesy. I find it interesting that you see romance and romantic love, two people actually falling for each other (one of the most basic human functions) as something that could be described as uncool or contrived or cliched whilst finding the idea of someone forced into a marriage against their will, to a man who is in a vastly superior position of power to the them, has been tacitly party to the abuse they suffered to be the basis of a clever and cunning love story. It sounds like you want Sansa to develop Stockholm Syndrome or become the title character from the odious sounding Pamela by Samuel Richardson.

[Woman of War]

Oh Rapsie forgive me for having forgotten the emoticons!!!!!!!!
I think you might have realized that I have been diving myself deeply into girlish cheesy shipping stuff with my post, so I thought the self irony must have been obvious.
And since I myself may have my romantic moments from time to time I as well enjoy shipping around literary characters, analysing them as if they were real people, only just refraining from identifying with them,  conviniently forgetting that they are only book characters who can neither be offended nor hurt. This is a compelling story that invites its readers to be really part of it and so I relish the girlish pleasure to play around with fanfiction, forgetting the detachment that a literary analysis needs for the sake of granting myself some "cheesy" emotions. Let's face it : "shipping" is uncool, un-nerdy, it is simply and purely fun. We need not wrap the coat of serious literary analysis around it, we are entitled to fun.
What we are doing here is not " considering romantic arcs as literary tool in order to analyse the social background  and the passive agressiveness of someone's parenting given the timeframe of the book "(somehow translating my longtime ago literature teacher into English), we are discussing fictional characters as if they were literary people living with us like good friends. I take my own romantic life very seriously, my friends' life as well but neither Sansa nor Tyrion sit at my kitchen table, desperately or cynically and in tears hoping for a shoulder to cry on (thank you very much, I have enough kids of their age around me to do this), asking me for the name of a good shrink or divorce lawyer.
What we are doing here is emotionally bathing in a wonderful book indulging in surrogate emotions like hatred, pride, fear, revenge, family or romantic love and lust. This may be the cheesy part which I obviously am enjoying myself here - only to go down into my studio  the next hour to do my nerdy job. Having romantic love and sexual lust as part of a good book is not the least little bit cheesy, it is life. Anna Karenina is not cheesy nor is Young Werther, though they died from love. It is our commitment as fans that may be hugely cheesy - but we are entitled to enjoy it.
And if the story has a plot that may seem a little weird to us - if it is clever and cunning, unexpected, challenging, if the story is based on the most unlikely, on a plot turn we really dislike, it may nonetheless be great and  we will have to accept it. Or do you think I liked young Werther killing himself when I first read the book?

Edited by Woman of War, 20 May 2012 - 02:12 PM.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Woman of War, on 20 May 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

But Rapsie, we know all this and most posters do not deny it. We may though differ in interpretations. Of course Tyrion as partner would demand a definitely adult and independently thinking woman who is not afraid or hadicapped by courtesies to insist on her position in a relationship because she knows that she, this imaginary character,, is not in the world to please others but has her own life to live. A woman who simply turns her back when she feels demeaned.

What?  WHAT???  Why?  Because Tyrion always turns the other cheek?

No, Tyrion needs a woman who will treat him the way he has treated his women, up to and including strangling, if need be.  Damn, suddenly a marriage between Arya and Tyrion seems like a good idea.

[Rapsie]

Woman of War, on 20 May 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

I think you might have realized that I have been diving myself deeply into girlish cheesy shipping stuff with my post, so I thought the self irony must have been obvious.

That choice of phrase highlights a point about feminine interests being viewed as silly and trivial, whilst male ones are seen as serious and important. It seems there is a constant dismissal of anything vaguely feminine in these novels whilst the masculine is held up as cool. It is as if woman and men who take an interest in looking at the romantic options in the series should be doing so almost apologetically.

Discussing possible battle outcomes and betrayals are seen as fine, because they are "important". Given the Rebellion started because of Rhaegar running off with Lyanna and the War of the Five Kings starting because Jaime and Cersei were in a forbidden relationship, then the effect of personal relationships on the story is the most extreme determining factor on how the story has come about. Battle and the political machinations of Varys or Randll Tarly are also vitally important to how the story has come to be. Both should be considered as equally important plot discussion points.

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Let's face it : "shipping" is uncool, un-nerdy, it is simply and purely fun. We need not wrap the coat of serious literary analysis around it, we are entitled to fun.

I really don't see any difference discussing the relationships in the book, to discussing the possible political alliances. We are waiting until the next book and theorizing, based on the previous books' hints, foreshadowing, character development, own personal views and reactions of some thing were to happen, why we see certain story ideas working, others not working etc. In fact this seem to be the basis of most threads.

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Or do you think I liked young Werther killing himself when I first read the book?

I think we all have plot points we don't like: Maggy the Frog for example. As for young Werther, I haven't read the book, but given it seems to be part of the same sentimentalist writing movement as The Old Curiosity Shop, then I suppose it depends on whether you view sentimentality as a deceptive literary technique or not.

[ARYa_Nym]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 20 May 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

What?  WHAT???  Why?  Because Tyrion always turns the other cheek?

No, Tyrion needs a woman who will treat him the way he has treated his women, up to and including strangling, if need be.  Damn, suddenly a marriage between Arya and Tyrion seems like a good idea.

If Arya did treat him that way that means that she doesn't like him and that would lead to her murdering him. I think she would kill him anyway if she were married to him because of his inability to be loyal. He turned on Tysha and Shae quickly and was cheating on Sansa.

What Tyrion needs is he needs to reevaluate how he treats women if he wants to have a successful relationship with one and he needs to work on his insecurities because they are just going to be another handicap for him. It is said that he would do well with a smart, independent, women but Tyrion as is doesn't value these things at least not in women. He's still really shallow but doesn't realize that he is.

[Woman of War]

http://en.wikipedia....f_Young_Werther

The Sorrows of Young Werther is the first truly important work by Goethe. it reflected the spirit of its time in an exemplary manner and had, for a work that is superficially sentimental, a huge, you may call it revolutionary and philosophical, impact, the first text of an independent youth movement. I only gave the very short and superficial English Wiki link.
Interesting side story: quite a few young people were overidentifying and committed suicide like Werther did in the book,  probably the first suicide pact in literary history.
What do you mean by "deceptive" as a  literary technique? You mean "escapist" or embellishing the realities of life or leading us on a false trail of hope for a "happy ending"?

[Woman of War]

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Damn, suddenly a marriage between Arya and Tyrion seems like a good idea.

actually this is a stupid idea, nobody thinks otherwise, I do not think anyone wanted to sell this as nice crackpot. Arya is too young for any shipping and she is definitely the female character where a romantic arc should not be a topic at all.

[Pellaeon]

Woman of War, on 20 May 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

actually this is a stupid idea, nobody thinks otherwise, I do not think anyone wanted to sell this as nice crackpot. Arya is too young for any shipping and she is definitely the female character where a romantic arc should not be a topic at all.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Woman of War, on 20 May 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

actually this is a stupid idea, nobody thinks otherwise, I do not think anyone wanted to sell this as nice crackpot. Arya is too young for any shipping and she is definitely the female character where a romantic arc should not be a topic at all.

Hello! Sarcasm!

Actually wasn't the possibility of Tyrion/Arya raised in this thread?  It was, somewhere, and yes, it would be gag-worthy and GRRM would never do it.  Nevertheless, the idea of Tyrion having to cope, at close quarters, with a woman as ruthless as he is very appealing.  How about one of the Sand Snakes?

IMO, the best outcome for any woman in the series is one that she has chosen for herself.  I argue for Arya's independence all the time, but it seems that even Sansa fans either don't expect her or don't want her to achieve independence in the one area most important to her -- her marriage.  I'm completely aware that GRRM doesn't do the characters many favors but we the readers can at least hope for the best.

[Winter's Knight]

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Let's face it : "shipping" is uncool, un-nerdy, it is simply and purely fun.

Since when is shipping un-nerdy? Every major fandom has it's unfulfiled ships-whether it's Spock/Kirk, Harry/Hermoine, Sam/Frodo, Katara/Zuko-and as has been mentioned, in AOIaF, the personal is the political. Who a character chooses as his/her partner can have wide ranging results as shown by Robb.

[Rapsie]

Woman of War, on 20 May 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

  What do you mean by "deceptive" as a literary technique? You mean "escapist" or embellishing the realities of life or leading us on a false trail of hope for a "happy ending"?

When the author manipulates you into feeling the emotion by using overblown / direct methods of inducing sentiment. So the tragedy of little Nell is excessively descriptive. Tiny Tim would be another sentimental character. Personally I don't mind sentimental books but they often come in for criticism.

Edit: "It's a Wonderful Life" is the best example of a sentimental film I can think of.

Edited by Rapsie, 20 May 2012 - 05:12 PM.

[bgona]

Woman of War, on 20 May 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

By kittykatknits: i really hit a nerve here, didn't I ? So many words about Tyrion, all of them true, I definitely feel no need to deny it, he IS indeed a hugely complex character, not boring at all. And being boring is definitely the WORST sin a literary character can commit.

Sorry but right now at ADWD that I´m still reading I can say that Tyrion right now bores me so much that I´m anxious to finish his POV chapters.

Edited by bgona, 20 May 2012 - 05:08 PM.

[Ser_Patreck]

ARYa_Nym, on 20 May 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

If Arya did treat him that way that means that she doesn't like him and that would lead to her murdering him. I think she would kill him anyway if she were married to him because of his inability to be loyal. He turned on Tysha and Shae quickly and was cheating on Sansa. What Tyrion needs is he needs to reevaluate how he treats women if he wants to have a successful relationship with one and he needs to work on his insecurities because they are just going to be another handicap for him. It is said that he would do well with a smart, independent, women but Tyrion as is doesn't value these things at least not in women. He's still really shallow but doesn't realize that he is.

Wha...?

Tyrion was thirteen was the whole Tysha thing happened. He didn't turn on her. He was a victim in an awful scene of sexual abuse just because his emotionally dead father was too worried about the Lannister family name to be a reasonable human being.

With Shae, she turned on him, not the other way around. Not saying that it wasn't understandable, BTW, but he was worried with her safety to the end. It was her who broke the relationship first.

Yes, killing her was horrifically overreacting, to say the least, but given all of his issues, it was understandable as well.

And "cheating" on Sansa? I mean, please. Like that marriage was ever going to work in that situation...

[ARYa_Nym]

Ser_Patreck, on 20 May 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

Wha...? Tyrion was thirteen was the whole Tysha thing happened. He didn't turn on her. He was a victim in an awful scene of sexual abuse just because his emotionally dead father was too worried about the Lannister family name to be a reasonable human being. With Shae, she turned on him, not the other way around. Not saying that it wasn't understandable, BTW, but he was worried with her safety to the end. It was her who broke the relationship first. Yes, killing her was horrifically overreacting, to say the least, but given all of his issues, it was understandable as well. And "cheating" on Sansa? I mean, please. Like that marriage was ever going to work in that situation...

It was abuse but after he was told she was a whore his view of her and the whole situation changed based on the word of Tywin and Jaime. It's understandable that he would take their word since they were his family but it didn't take much convincing.

Shae and Tyrion turned on each other. He forgot that she was getting paid and blurred the lines and called it love. He got upset that she betrayed him when she owed no loyalty to him just like Bronn and turned on her by killing her. Not to mention he did want Sansa to a degree so he wanted his wife and mistress. He was annoyed that Shae wasn't jealous of Sansa.

Tyrion can be sympathized with in these situations and his actions were understandable to a degree but based on his actions the women he has been with romantically I don't see him as the type to be a loyal and faithful husband. He wants a romance though but I see him as incapable of having a healthy relationship until he reevaluates himself.

[Ser_Patreck]

OK, rereading this before posting, it turn out as a rather passionate Tyrion defense, and not as clear as I thought, but GoT is about to begin, so it'll do:

ARYa_Nym, on 20 May 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

It was abuse but after he was told she was a whore his view of her and the whole situation changed based on the word of Tywin and Jaime. It's understandable that he would take their word since they were his family but it didn't take much convincing. Shae and Tyrion turned on each other. He forgot that she was getting paid and blurred the lines and called it love. He got upset that she betrayed him when she owed no loyalty to him just like Bronn and turned on her by killing her. Not to mention he did want Sansa to a degree so he wanted his wife and mistress. He was annoyed that Shae wasn't jealous of Sansa. Tyrion can be sympathized with in these situations and his actions were understandable to a degree but based on his actions the women he has been with romantically I don't see him as the type to be a loyal and faithful husband. He wants a romance though but I see him as incapable of having a healthy relationship until he reevaluates himself.

Hmmm, no? The Tysha business still plague him, to the point that he cries while talking about it to random people in the road (Bronn, on the High Road, for example). The bit about "she was a whore" didn't make him any less guilty for the way it all happened - It just added more hurt to the farce, since it was basically Tywin telling Tyrion "You stupid dwarf, do you think a woman will ever love you for anything other than your money?".

You forget, Tyrion has been abused and despised for being a dwarf for his whole life. The closest female figure he had while growing up hated him and hurt him at every chance. His father wouldn't even look at him. Only Jaime would ever give him attention, and then, only when that didn't mean taking attention from Cersei.

So when your beloved brother tells you something, something that just confirms the way everyone has been telling you the world works since you are old enough to understand, you just believe them. It crushes you inside, but you believe them.

(And the way the tale is told, I don't believe Tysha was crying and screaming and begging Tyrion to believe her. Most probably, Tywin had her broken and threatened to go along with his little play, and that's one more thing to add veracity, in Tyrion's eyes.)

That brings us to Shae. more than ten years later, Tyrion Lannister is still bitter that no one would ever love him for what he is. That he has to buy it. He believes it, since he has no reason not to, but he doesn't want to, he wants to delude himself, and that's why he pays Shae for what is, basically, "the girlfriend experience".

He wants to believe that she may love him once she knows him, but at the same time, he just can't forget that he's paying for it, that it's not real. That's what causes his "bipolar" behavior with Shae - Sometimes he wants intimacy and trust, other times, as if suddenly remembering that he's paying her, he gets bitter and says he only wants her for her c***. That's also the reason it upsets him that Shae isn't jealous of Sansa, it reminds him that it's not "real".

Still, Tyrion likes to believe that he can, at least, have a friendly business relationship with Shae. When she testifies against him, humiliates him in public and - And that was the worst for Tyrion, as far as I can tell - lies with his father, the man who is, in a way, responsible for all he has been through, he snaps. Again, it's not nice, it's not commendable, it's Tyrion at his worst. But it is understandable.

Tyrion is incapable of having a healthy relationship because he has never been in one. The only chance he had at one was taken away from him by his abusive father and crushed before his eyes. Because the closest female relative he has hates him and has been abusing him since he was no more than a toddler. Yes, he's a broken and twisted human being, but I really don't see how can people put the blame for this squarely upon his shoulders as if he chose this. He didn't.

And his arc through aDwD is part of this reevaluation you speak of. It's him coping with all he has done and suffered through his life. Just, it's messy and dark and twisted, and not simply he lounging in a divan and talking about his childhood and reflecting on his behavior until he finds a sudden insight and the drive to be a better man, as people had hoped.

P.S.: I don't think he "wanted" Sansa. He didn't think of her in a romantic/sexual way until his father dropped this marriage upon his head, and his fisrt reaction was "she's a child". What came later was, as far as I can tell, him trying to make the best out of this situation. And, once again, starting to delude himself with hopes of a happy marriage (IDK, I think every time he sees himself in a relationship with a woman, his automatic reaction is to want to revive his time with Tysha - saving her, breaking through to her, and then domestic bliss for both). Still, he doesn't want to force himself upon Sansa and is willing to look the other way if she decides to have a lover. This is, to me, evidence that Sansa wasn't as much in his (obsessive) thoughts at that moment as Shae.

[ARYa_Nym]

Ser_Patreck, on 20 May 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

OK, rereading this before posting, it turn out as a rather passionate Tyrion defense, and not as clear as I thought, but GoT is about to begin, so it'll do: Hmmm, no? The Tysha business still plague him, to the point that he cries while talking about it to random people in the road (Bronn, on the High Road, for example). The bit about "she was a whore" didn't make him any less guilty for the way it all happened - It just added more hurt to the farce, since it was basically Tywin telling Tyrion "You stupid dwarf, do you think a woman will ever love you for anything other than your money?". You forget, Tyrion has been abused and despised for being a dwarf for his whole life. The closest female figure he had while growing up hated him and hurt him at every chance. His father wouldn't even look at him. Only Jaime would ever give him attention, and then, only when that didn't mean taking attention from Cersei. So when your beloved brother tells you something, something that just confirms the way everyone has been telling you the world works since you are old enough to understand, you just believe them. It crushes you inside, but you believe them. (And the way the tale is told, I don't believe Tysha was crying and screaming and begging Tyrion to believe her. Most probably, Tywin had her broken and threatened to go along with his little play, and that's one more thing to add veracity, in Tyrion's eyes.) That brings us to Shae. more than ten years later, Tyrion Lannister is still bitter that no one would ever love him for what he is. That he has to buy it. He believes it, since he has no reason not to, but he doesn't want to, he wants to delude himself, and that's why he pays Shae for what is, basically, "the girlfriend experience". He wants to believe that she may love him once she knows him, but at the same time, he just can't forget that he's paying for it, that it's not real. That's what causes his "bipolar" behavior with Shae - Sometimes he wants intimacy and trust, other times, as if suddenly remembering that he's paying her, he gets bitter and says he only wants her for her c***. That's also the reason it upsets him that Shae isn't jealous of Sansa, it reminds him that it's not "real". Still, Tyrion likes to believe that he can, at least, have a friendly business relationship with Shae. When she testifies against him, humiliates him in public and - And that was the worst for Tyrion, as far as I can tell - lies with his father, the man who is, in a way, responsible for all he has been through, he snaps. Again, it's not nice, it's not commendable, it's Tyrion at his worst. But it is understandable. Tyrion is incapable of having a healthy relationship because he has never been in one. The only chance he had at one was taken away from him by his abusive father and crushed before his eyes. Because the closest female relative he has hates him and has been abusing him since he was no more than a toddler. Yes, he's a broken and twisted human being, but I really don't see how can people put the blame for this squarely upon his shoulders as if he chose this. He didn't. And his arc through aDwD is part of this reevaluation you speak of. It's him coping with all he has done and suffered through his life. Just, it's messy and dark and twisted, and not simply he lounging in a divan and talking about his childhood and reflecting on his behavior until he finds a sudden insight and the drive to be a better man, as people had hoped. P.S.: I don't think he "wanted" Sansa. He didn't think of her in a romantic/sexual way until his father dropped this marriage upon his head, and his fisrt reaction was "she's a child". What came later was, as far as I can tell, him trying to make the best out of this situation. And, once again, starting to delude himself with hopes of a happy marriage (IDK, I think every time he sees himself in a relationship with a woman, his automatic reaction is to want to revive his time with Tysha - saving her, breaking through to her, and then domestic bliss for both). Still, he doesn't want to force himself upon Sansa and is willing to look the other way if she decides to have a lover. This is, to me, evidence that Sansa wasn't as much in his (obsessive) thoughts at that moment as Shae.

I said his actions were understandable and sympathetic but it doesn't negate what happened.

Quote

"Tyrion found himself thinking of his wife. Not Sansa; his first wife, Tysha. The whore wife, not the wolf wife. Her love for him had been pretense, and yet he had believed, and found joy in that belief. Give me sweet lies, and keep your bitter truths."

He also chose after he found out that she wasn't a whore to ask Tywin what happened to her.


He did want Sansa. Wanting someone doesn't mean sexually. He wanted her love and simultaneously wanted Shae sexually.

Quote

"I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is. I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust."

5 minutes later he wants Shae to be jealous. He's bitter that he can only get love from someone like Shae.

Quote

"Some part of him had hoped for less indifference. Had hoped, he jeered bitterly, but now you know better, dwarf. Shae is all the love you're ever like to have."

He later thinks of them as false.

Quote

"Was she your wife? She...she was very beautiful..." And false. Sansa, Shae, all my women... Tysha was the only one who ever loved me. Where do whores go?" "A lovely girl," said Tyrion, "and we were joined beneath the eyes of gods and men. It may be that she is lost to me, but until that for a certainty I must be true to her." "I understand." Penny turned her face away from his. My perfect woman, Tyrion thought bitterly. One still young enough to believe such blatant lies."

Tyrion has insecurities. While they're understandable he has the tendency to go looking for love in the wrong places. If he can't find it in Sansa (his wife) he was willing to get it from Shae (his paid mistress).

Basically if his wife won't provide him what he needs he will go elsewhere.

I don't think that Tysha could have been his only chance. That was years ago. Sure most women wouldn't want him but if he spends all his time looking for love in the wrong places he won't find it. Now I'm not one of those who thinks that he should get it from the more than willing Penny because I don't think that they're compatible but I think she illustrates his need to change his approach towards women.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Ser_Patreck, on 20 May 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

  P.S.: I don't think he "wanted" Sansa. He didn't think of her in a romantic/sexual way until his father dropped this marriage upon his head, and his fisrt reaction was "she's a child". What came later was, as far as I can tell, him trying to make the best out of this situation. And, once again, starting to delude himself with hopes of a happy marriage (IDK, I think every time he sees himself in a relationship with a woman, his automatic reaction is to want to revive his time with Tysha - saving her, breaking through to her, and then domestic bliss for both). Still, he doesn't want to force himself upon Sansa and is willing to look the other way if she decides to have a lover. This is, to me, evidence that Sansa wasn't as much in his (obsessive) thoughts at that moment as Shae.

Really?  What gives you that idea?

[Natalie_S]

ARYa_Nym, on 20 May 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

I don't think that Tysha could have been his only chance. That was years ago. Sure most women wouldn't want him but if he spends all his time looking for love in the wrong places he won't find it. Now I'm not one of those who thinks that he should get it from the more than willing Penny because I don't think that they're compatible but I think she illustrates his need to change his approach towards women.

He couldn't be in a relationship with someone from the smallfolk because his father would have assumed that she was only after the Lannister money and have her "punished".
He couldn't marry anyone noble because Tywin said everyone refused him.
So, exactly, where was he supposed to look for love?

I think one of the important things in ADWD is that Tyrion starts in being in real relationship with people because he's out of Tywin's shadow.
It may be just casual flirting (as with Septa Lemore) or in a unlikely friendship (as with Penny), but at least he's in the situation of being appreciated for what he is, and without dreading his father's revenge.


As to Sansa, I don't think he was truly in love with her, but he was married to her nevertheless, and so tried to imagine sometimes what it would have been like to be in a "real" marriage.
The scene at Joffrey's wedding when he looks at the Fossoway couple exchanging displays of affection is downright heartbreaking, especially when he compares it to his real situation.
As the line when he's with Shae about how good it was to be holding someone and being held.
He's (understandably, knowing his personal history) hungry for love, knows that he's supposed to find it in marriage, but can't escape the harsh reality.