281 replies to this topic

[Ser_Patreck]

ARYa_Nym, on 20 May 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

He did want Sansa. Wanting someone doesn't mean sexually. He wanted her love and simultaneously wanted Shae sexually. 5 minutes later he wants Shae to be jealous. He's bitter that he can only get love from someone like Shae. He later thinks of them as false. Tyrion has insecurities. While they're understandable he has the tendency to go looking for love in the wrong places. If he can't find it in Sansa (his wife) he was willing to get it from Shae (his paid mistress). Basically if his wife won't provide him what he needs he will go elsewhere. I don't think that Tysha could have been his only chance. That was years ago. Sure most women wouldn't want him but if he spends all his time looking for love in the wrong places he won't find it. Now I'm not one of those who thinks that he should get it from the more than willing Penny because I don't think that they're compatible but I think she illustrates his need to change his approach towards women.

Well, of course he looks for love at the wrong places - That's the kind of scar abuse leaves you. "No one will ever love you, dwarf, only your money", was what Tywin was hammering down on his head that night, and it worked.

For all his quick wit and sharp tongue are wort, deep down, Tyrion believes himself to be unworthy of love. Of course, he tries to get it every way he can, he tries to be a good Hand (By his father's terms of what a "good Hand" is, and that's problematic, but I can't fault him there), he tries to make his marriage with Sansa work out in spite of everything, and yes, he pays whores to pretend to like him. He does all of this and feels bitter about it, because he believes no one will ever love him.

It's a vicious circle, because this belief leaves him bitter and angry, and he snaps at people and try to play at the monster they believe him to be, which further estranges relations and, in turn, feeds his resentment.

And in fact, I believe that was what hurt him the most that night when Jaime told him Tysha was no whore. If she was no whore, she loved him for himself. Which means that if she could love him for himself, he wasn't such a wretch of an human being to begin with. He had a chance. Except, that was what he believed for, what, 10, 12 years? And in believing so, he became that wretch, he was vicious, he was cruel, he was unpleasing... He had a chance, once, but now he is a monster, now there's no one left to care. Once again, he sees no option but embrace his nature as an Imp. Father made an excellent job there, didn't he?

That's when he decides to embrace the monster he feels he should be, which is what motivates his appalling behavior in the first half of aDwD.

But I digress. What I mean to say is, Tyrion looks for love in the wrong place, yes, and in the wrong way as well, he never tries to connect, never allows any intimacy. But that's a learned pattern, something raising from the gang-rape scene. No one will ever love him in the traditional scene, so he looks for it in his whores. And he knows it's a foolish decision, but really, what can he do? Tyrion hungers for affection, for intimacy ("I want her laugh. I want her to bring me her joys, and her sorrows, and her lust"). And that's why I don't blame him for running straight to Shae. What was he supposed to do, keep trying to breach Sansa's impenetrable walls (Which are also completely understandable and relatable, BTW)? Shae is, despite everything, the best he can have.

And that's incredibly sad. That, and the fact that people continue to write off his miserable self-esteem, confidence and overall lack of affection issues as "misogyny".

Sand Snake No. 9, on 20 May 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

Really? What gives you that idea?

I remember seeing something with that general meaning in one of his POVs. Might be recalling it wrong, tough., so I'll not press the issue. My point was, he didn't want to marry Sansa. His interactions with her were about making the best out of their marriage and, later, yes, projecting upon her his need for affection. But he never wanted Sansa.

Natalie_S, on 21 May 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:

He couldn't be in a relationship with someone from the smallfolk because his father would have assumed that she was only after the Lannister money and have her "punished". He couldn't marry anyone noble because Tywin said everyone refused him. So, exactly, where was he supposed to look for love? I think one of the important things in ADWD is that Tyrion starts in being in real relationship with people because he's out of Tywin's shadow. It may be just casual flirting (as with Septa Lemore) or in a unlikely friendship (as with Penny), but at least he's in the situation of being appreciated for what he is, and without dreading his father's revenge. As to Sansa, I don't think he was truly in love with her, but he was married to her nevertheless, and so tried to imagine sometimes what it would have been like to be in a "real" marriage. The scene at Joffrey's wedding when he looks at the Fossoway couple exchanging displays of affection is downright heartbreaking, especially when he compares it to his real situation. As the line when he's with Shae about how good it was to be holding someone and being held. He's (understandably, knowing his personal history) hungry for love, knows that he's supposed to find it in marriage, but can't escape the harsh reality.

And Natalie_S sums it better than I ever could.

That's the point.

That scene at the wedding. Ugh, that leaves me with a bitter taste at my mouth to this day. I mean, it's just like seeing one of those horribly cliché scenes where a poor waif is left freezing in a cold winter night, with her face pressed to some glass window, looking at a warm, happy family dinner. Tyrion desperately wants that, but believesknows he can't have that, and worst, believesknows it's his own fault. My poor dwarf... Tyrion's still, in many ways, that 13 years old boy.

It's not about the sex. That's not what he seeks with his whores. It's about those blissful moments he had with Tysha, that he wants back.

[Lyanna Stark]

Ser_Patreck, on 21 May 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

. And he knows it's a foolish decision, but really, what can he do? Tyrion hungers for affection, for intimacy ("I want her laugh. I want her to bring me her joys, and her sorrows, and her lust"). And that's why I don't blame him for running straight to Shae. What was he supposed to do, keep trying to breach Sansa's impenetrable walls (Which are also completely understandable and relatable, BTW)? Shae is, despite everything, the best he can have. And that's incredibly sad. That, and the fact that people continue to write off his miserable self-esteem, confidence and overall lack of affection issues as "misogyny". I remember seeing something with that general meaning in one of his POVs. Might be recalling it wrong, tough., so I'll not press the issue.

I agree with this, but Tyrion also want something that is only pleasing to him and he doesn't want to reach out. Understandable, but the way he treats Shae reeks of misogyny, probably because he has never had a constructive and positive relationship with a woman in his life, minus Tysha, and that was completely ruined for him. He slaps Shae and he even slaps Penny once he gets back into his "Lannister" persona. I'm really looking forward to Tyrion getting a female "boss" in Dany and how he'll react to that, since as it is, he's got issues with women. Obviously not as a "OMG Tyrion is to blame for everything" but that he has issues he needs to work through.

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My point was, he didn't want to marry Sansa. His interactions with her were about making the best out of their marriage and, later, yes, projecting upon her his need for affection. But he never wanted Sansa.

Really? I think you need to check the Tyrion chapters in ASOS again. Tywin dangles "sweet smelling, gentle Sansa Stark" in front of Tyrion like a carrot. Sure, the main attraction is the claim to Winterfell, and Tyrion makes some dutiful noises about it being a bad idea and maybe she'd rather have Lancel, but it's not until they have been married and he realises Sansa's complete distaste for him and his family, how desolate and depressed she is that he also realises it will never work. Tywin is clever here: he knows Tyrion likes pretty girls and Sansa is that. He knows Tyrion yearns for power, but also autonomy, and Winterfell could give him that, too (of course Tyrion is not thinking clearly here since if he was, he would know the northmen would NEVER EVER accept a Lannister as Warden of the North, EVER.)

Tyrion knows he is being baited, and he swallows it, hook, line and sinker. This is actually one of his most selfish decisions since he thinks nothing of what Sansa Stark ones. He has hardly even talked to her before their wedding.

Both Tyrion and Sansa are miserable being married, that much is clear. Jaime refused Tywin wanting him to marry and Cersei put up a fight, yet Tyrion goes meekly to marry a 13 year old whose family has been annihilated by his own and doesn't give a flying fig for her thoughts. Absolving Tyrion of all blame for their marriage is completely whitewashing his character in a way that is not necessary.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 21 May 2012 - 03:43 AM.

[Natalie_S]

All Westeros and Essos is full of misoginy.
Unfortunately the condition of women in ASOIAF is appalling.
Even Catelyn thinks "There's nothing more sad than an ugly women" (translated back to English, i don't know the original phrasing), which is a pretty reactionary concept.
It's a bit ponitless, i think, to judge behaviour towards women by our standards.

PS: Personally I don't think that Tyrion is particularly mysoginist compared to other characters. For example his main antagonist is Cersei, but I don't ever recall him dismiss her actions or underestimate her power "because she's a woman" (as Joffrey, for example, does).

Also, marriage to Sansa is mainly political: they are playing the Game of Thrones, and there doesn't seem to be much space for the player's feelings, it's all about alliances and inheritance. Arranged marriages were the most common way to secure allies.
Jon Arryn married Lysa Tully, who clearly didn't want him; Catelyn was sent to Ned and they had barely spoken before the wedding.
Even when Ned comforts Sansa he says "I'll find you a good husband" not "you'll fall in love with someone and choose him by your own will". That's not how it works.

Edited by Natalie_S, 21 May 2012 - 03:59 AM.

[ARYa_Nym]

Natalie_S, on 21 May 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:

He couldn't be in a relationship with someone from the smallfolk because his father would have assumed that she was only after the Lannister money and have her "punished". He couldn't marry anyone noble because Tywin said everyone refused him. So, exactly, where was he supposed to look for love? I think one of the important things in ADWD is that Tyrion starts in being in real relationship with people because he's out of Tywin's shadow. It may be just casual flirting (as with Septa Lemore) or in a unlikely friendship (as with Penny), but at least he's in the situation of being appreciated for what he is, and without dreading his father's revenge. As to Sansa, I don't think he was truly in love with her, but he was married to her nevertheless, and so tried to imagine sometimes what it would have been like to be in a "real" marriage. The scene at Joffrey's wedding when he looks at the Fossoway couple exchanging displays of affection is downright heartbreaking, especially when he compares it to his real situation. As the line when he's with Shae about how good it was to be holding someone and being held. He's (understandably, knowing his personal history) hungry for love, knows that he's supposed to find it in marriage, but can't escape the harsh reality.

I doubt Tywin asked all of the lords in the realm. Tyrion could have tried the noblewomen who had trouble getting married off. I don't remember but did he ask Walder Frey for example? The nobles didn't want to willingly marry his children either. He also could have tried to see if there were any struggling widows available. A less desirable option is to try someone from among the elite in Essos.

I think it's really more about where he's not supposed to look. He's not going to find it in someone he pays. He knew that he was making a mistake with Shae but he did it anyway. It's understandable why he was able to make this mistake but it's also not a surprise that it turned out  badly for him.

[Lyanna Stark]

Natalie_S, on 21 May 2012 - 03:54 AM, said:

All Westeros and Essos is full of misoginy.
Unfortunately the condition of women in ASOIAF is appalling.

Which is still no reason to whitewash Tyrion's character. Saying that "oh but others are bad too" does not absolve him.

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Even Catelyn thinks "There's nothing more sad than an ugly women" (translated back to English, i don't know the original phrasing), which is a pretty reactionary concept.

And this is often true today, too, so what does this say about misogyny?

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It's a bit ponitless, i think, to judge behaviour towards women by our standards.

Completely false. We are modern readers, the series is written for modern eyes. There is a culture in place, sure, but we will always interpret and judge actions based on our own moral stance, which is a modern one. We can still think hangings are over the top punishment for thievery or that forced marriages are horrible, as we should think these things. This is the same line of thinking that makes it OK for the Dothraki to rape, because "it's not modern".

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PS: Personally I don't think that Tyrion is particularly mysoginist compared to other characters. For example his main antagonist is Cersei, but I don't ever recall him dismiss her actions or underestimate her power "because she's a woman" (as Joffrey, for example, does).

Tyrion wishes he could rape and kill Cersei several times in ADWD. That's misogyny. He hits Shae and Penny. That's misogyny. Tyrion has an extremely troubled relationship with women. That's part of his character arc. Whitewashing that removes from his plot, since it's such a central part of who he is. The lack of his mother and the Tysha incident + Tywin's treatment of him really define Tyrion.

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Also, marriage to Sansa is mainly political: they are playing the Game of Thrones, and there doesn't seem to be much space for the player's feelings, it's all about alliances and inheritance. Arranged marriages were the most common way to secure allies.

Again, whitewashing. It's not needed, there's no point in doing so. Characters don't need to be 100% good for us to like them, or appreciate them. Tyrion certainly isn't and marrying Sansa for his own political gain and to have a pretty trophy wife is completely selfish. He's also towing Tywin's line, even while recognising how he's being played.

Plus the main failing Tyrion makes is again to not see clearly since he's blinded by what he wants. Winterfell and the North will NEVER accept a Lannister. Tyrion thinks they will when accepting the marriage to Sansa, but he is deluding himself. See Stannis' reaction to "Sansa Lannister's claim" to get a clue in to how things are working out.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 21 May 2012 - 04:08 AM.

[ARYa_Nym]

Ser_Patreck, on 21 May 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

Well, of course he looks for love at the wrong places - That's the kind of scar abuse leaves you. "No one will ever love you, dwarf, only your money", was what Tywin was hammering down on his head that night, and it worked. For all his quick wit and sharp tongue are wort, deep down, Tyrion believes himself to be unworthy of love. Of course, he tries to get it every way he can, he tries to be a good Hand (By his father's terms of what a "good Hand" is, and that's problematic, but I can't fault him there), he tries to make his marriage with Sansa work out in spite of everything, and yes, he pays whores to pretend to like him. He does all of this and feels bitter about it, because he believes no one will ever love him. It's a vicious circle, because this belief leaves him bitter and angry, and he snaps at people and try to play at the monster they believe him to be, which further estranges relations and, in turn, feeds his resentment. And in fact, I believe that was what hurt him the most that night when Jaime told him Tysha was no whore. If she was no whore, she loved him for himself. Which means that if she could love him for himself, he wasn't such a wretch of an human being to begin with. He had a chance. Except, that was what he believed for, what, 10, 12 years? And in believing so, he became that wretch, he was vicious, he was cruel, he was unpleasing... He had a chance, once, but now he is a monster, now there's no one left to care. Once again, he sees no option but embrace his nature as an Imp. Father made an excellent job there, didn't he? That's when he decides to embrace the monster he feels he should be, which is what motivates his appalling behavior in the first half of aDwD. But I digress. What I mean to say is, Tyrion looks for love in the wrong place, yes, and in the wrong way as well, he never tries to connect, never allows any intimacy. But that's a learned pattern, something raising from the gang-rape scene. No one will ever love him in the traditional scene, so he looks for it in his whores. And he knows it's a foolish decision, but really, what can he do? Tyrion hungers for affection, for intimacy ("I want her laugh. I want her to bring me her joys, and her sorrows, and her lust"). And that's why I don't blame him for running straight to Shae. What was he supposed to do, keep trying to breach Sansa's impenetrable walls (Which are also completely understandable and relatable, BTW)? Shae is, despite everything, the best he can have. And that's incredibly sad. That, and the fact that people continue to write off his miserable self-esteem, confidence and overall lack of affection issues as "misogyny".

His insecurities and lack of self-love are a huge factor in why I see him as incapable of having a healthy relationship. Tyrion doesn't even love himself and most of the relationships he has are dysfunctional.

[Natalie_S]

Lyanna Stark, on 21 May 2012 - 04:07 AM, said:

Which is still no reason to whitewash Tyrion's character. Saying that "oh but others are bad too" does not absolve him.
....

Completely false. We are modern readers, the series is written for modern eyes. There is a culture in place, sure, but we will always interpret and judge actions based on our own moral stance, which is a modern one. We can still think hangings are over the top punishment for thievery or that forced marriages are horrible, as we should think these things. This is the same line of thinking that makes it OK for the Dothraki to rape, because "it's not modern".

Of course we should think that these things are horrible!
We think that that kind of society is horrible and sick, but we can't judge the moral of a character basing on moral stances that they can't have!
If society tells you that that is the right behaviour, you can't blame a character if he behaves accordingly.
Why doesn't anybody seem to think that Ned Stark is a horrible father? He was going to place Sansa in an arranged marriage.
Hoster Tully too. I don't see a huge amount of Hoster Tully hate here, but he put Lysa in a miserable marriage instead of letting her marry Littlefinger.
Why is it ok for everyone but not for Tyrion?

Lyanna Stark, on 21 May 2012 - 04:07 AM, said:

Tyrion wishes he could rape and kill Cersei several times in ADWD. That's misogyny. He hits Shae and Penny. That's misogyny. Tyrion has an extremely troubled relationship with women. That's part of his character arc. Whitewashing that removes from his plot, since it's such a central part of who he is. The lack of his mother and the Tysha incident + Tywin's treatment of him really define Tyrion.

I agree with your last sentence and with the fact that Tyrion has troubled relationship with women... but not because they are women.
He has issues relating to love and affection, because he received little to no love and he's been told all his life that he can never be loved.
And this reflects on women because he's a man and he's attracted to them, but not because he thinks women are inferior human beings. He never thinks that.
Mysoginy is when you hate or discriminate someone basing on their sex.
When he claims he want to "rape and kill Cersei", that's what he says, not what he thinks. He's trying to scare the person he's talking to there, he's playing the monster. He has a big mouth and often uses hyperboles (or even makes empty threats about thing we perfectly know he doesn't intend to do --> see Tommen) but he never fantasizes about raping Cersei.
He hates her, but he doesn't hate her in a different way because she's a woman... When he sees the people that shovel elephant feces he thinks that that's be a perfect job for her, but it has nothing to do with her womanhood.. he could have said that about a man and it would have made no difference.
About the slapping, he slaps Joffrey too, and he's no woman.
I'm not trying to whitewash Tyrion, I think he has many flaws (he doesn't care enough about smallfolk in my opinion, he sent his own soldiers to die in the Battle of Blackwaters because of the wildfire, he can be almost as machiavellic as Tywin, he often put himself in bad situations because he can't just shut the fuck up etc..), but not these flaws in particular!

[Lyanna Stark]

Natalie_S, on 21 May 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

Of course we should think that these things are horrible! We think that that kind of society is horrible and sick, but we can't judge the moral of a character basing on moral stances that they can't have! If society tells you that that is the right behaviour, you can't blame a character if he behaves accordingly. Why doesn't anybody seem to think that Ned Stark is a horrible father? He was going to place Sansa in an arranged marriage. Hoster Tully too. I don't see a huge amount of Hoster Tully hate here, but he put Lysa in a miserable marriage instead of letting her marry Littlefinger. Why is it ok for everyone but not for Tyrion?

Please quote me on anywhere I have said that it's ok. As you won't find that anywhere, I think you can drop that particularl strawman.

It's clear that truly forced arranged marriages rarely worked out really well, just like love matches based on infatuation didn't work out well. This is evidenced by the framing love story of ASOIAF; which is Rhaegar/Lyanna and all the doom that brought with it. It has both the aspect of a badly arranged marriage (Lyanna/Robert) and of doomed infatuation (Lyanna/Rhaegar).

In fact, I have argued in the past and still am that as nice a father as Ned is, the person truly enabling Sansa ton reach her full potential is Littlefinger. The same goes for Arya in the House of Black and White. She's learning completely different things than had she stayed a lady in Winterfell. We also have Arianne, Asha and Dany as examples of women who strongly disagree with the idea of arranged marraiges. Dany goes ahead anyway, Arianne goes her own way and Asha completely rejects it. If we are meant to meekly accept that women get married off, why the addition of these very outspoken female POVs? we are clearly meant to sympathise with them, so arguing like you do that we should simply accept the status quo goes against what's in the actual novel. Arranged marraiges and women's subjugated roles are two linked issues that are brought up and problematised.

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I agree with your last sentence and with the fact that Tyrion has troubled relationship with women... but not because they are women. He has issues relating to love and affection, because he received little to no love and he's been told all his life that he can never be loved. And this reflects on women because he's a man and he's attracted to them, but not because he thinks women are inferior human beings. He never thinks that. Mysoginy is when you hate or discriminate someone basing on their sex.

He never thinks what? "Women are inferior". Do you think real life misiogynist go around thinking "women are inferior" or that they just have a lot of preconceived notions about women and that they just aren't up to par with men? The fact that Tyrion doesn't specifically think that "women are inferior" does not absolve him of misogyny. That would be a really silly way of defining it.

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When he claims he want to "rape and kill Cersei", that's what he says, not what he thinks. He's trying to scare the person he's talking to there, he's playing the monster. He has a big mouth and often uses hyperboles (or even makes empty threats about thing we perfectly know he doesn't intend to do --> see Tommen) but he never fantasizes about raping Cersei.

Really? I got the opposite impression. He uses sexualised demeaning language when he thinks that he wants to hurt Cersei. He wants to dominate her and defile her, hence rape, and not that he wants to cut her head off, or something. I think it's clear it ties into his totally fucked up view of women and his difficulty to relate with women, due to the lack of mother and any sort of meaningful female interaction.

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He hates her, but he doesn't hate her in a different way because she's a woman...

How often does he threaten to rape Jaime?

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About the slapping, he slaps Joffrey too, and he's no woman. I'm not trying to whitewash Tyrion, I think he has many flaws (he doesn't care enough about smallfolk in my opinion, he sent his own soldiers to die in the Battle of Blackwaters because of the wildfire, he can be almost as machiavellic as Tywin, he often put himself in bad situations because he can't just shut the fuck up etc..), but not these flaws in particular!

Joffrey is the King. He's in power. Shae is a whore and Penny a little dwarf girl. Tyrion as Hand slapping Joffrey the King is a relationship that is nearly among equals, since Joffrey is a minor and a pretty dumb king to boot. Shae and Penny are both IN Tyrion's power. Shae being a paid whore and Penny a scared little girl. They can in no way be compared without also viewing the complete dichotonomy in the power balances.

Absolving Tyrion of his difficulty with interacting with women is white washing him. It is part of what makes his character interesting, and removing that from him makes the character a disservice.

[Kittykatknits]

Woman of War, on 20 May 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

i really hit a nerve here, didn't I ?
So many words about Tyrion, all of them true, I definitely feel no need to deny it, he IS indeed  a hugely complex character, not boring at all.
And being boring is definitely the WORST sin a literary character can commit.

Since this was addressed to me, I'll answer. I wouldnt say you hit a nerve but I did find some of what you said to be rather eye-rolling. I'll go ahead and answer you in more detail now although some of it will be repeats of some brilliant points by Rapsie and Brashcandy.

Woman of War, on 19 May 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

I for example believe, were we in RL, a relationship like San/San would be doomed go end in domestic violence as soon as the little bird develops an identity of her own and outgrows a lover who has so much less to offer concerning status, social competence and education and who would react to those feelings of inferiority with his learned pattern of violence. But this does of course not mean that we won't get a wonderful story of Sandor dying for his little bird as her true and faithful knight - if Martin wants this. And if I believe a plot to be very unlikely, well, the author needs not share my

I won't dispute that Sandor has intimacy issues and struggles to relate with people. But the same applies just as much as Tyrion. Whether or not Sandor and Sansa end up in a relationship together, and I have strong doubts about that happening regardless of what I would like to happen, I disagree that Sandor is the one who would become a domestic abuser. Sandor gave Sansa advice, lied for her, protected her, and as we saw in Storm, was very proud of her for escaping from the Lannisters. Martin also points out that when he does touch her that it is gently. He has also elected to stay on the Quiet Isle, an indicator that Sandor is seeking help to work through his issues. Let's contrast that with Tyrion who has an actual history of domestic abuse. Tyrion struggles to control his emotions and never knows when to shut up, a fact he acknowledges and that LF is able to use to frame him for the death of Joff. Tyrion has a history of demeaning and objectifying women. When it comes specifically to Sansa, we also know that Tyrion feels bitterness towards her on several occasions. If either of these men were to turn in to a domestic abuser with Sansa, it is Tyrion.

Woman of War, on 19 May 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

So there is definitely no reason to rule out the possibility of Sansa and Tyrion ending up together. The author may have his reasons to write this.
Concerning a morally different shade of grey in the two protagonists we are discussing: Tyrion was about the same age Sansa is now when the Tysha rape happened, a probably nice and loveable child until then, afterwards a troubled personality. So we do not know what may become of Sansa when the story goes on, she may commit horrible crimes, become a seriously disturbed person and the "moral equilibrium" between the two characters may be turned around.
So far, if Sansa stays the way she is, which maybe won't happen, I indeed agree.

You are correct that we do not know for a certainty what will happen. But, we can read and understand story arcs and use this information to make informed guesses on what could happen. So far, we have seen that Sansa is a very observant and empathetic individual. Like other younger characters, she is greying as she gets older. But, there is no evidence that she will go on to commit horrible crimes. There is even less evidence that she will go on to commit horrible crimes to a degree that would eclipse Tyrion and thus change the "moral equilibrium" between the two. Tyrion was a murderer and kinslayer in Storm. We saw him go on to again hit another woman, commit murder, commit rape, and at least terrorize and possible rape another women in Dance. There is nothing in Sansa's arc to indicate that she will surpass these crimes.

Woman of War, on 19 May 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

Tyrion should find someone adult, more outgoing, with a sense of humour and intellectual curiosity. Having the same social or class background is not enough, I could imagine that  a woman of less exquisite lineage who is eager to learn and willing to think outside prefabricated patterns fits better than Sansa  - so far -  who has yet to grow beyond some limitations given by her upbringing. Well, she is only fourteen, a child actually, you can't expect her to have a certain detached look at herself, something that is the base of all personal development and of a healthy self irony. Though circumstances may force her .....

Again, Sansa's story arc shows quite the opposite. Let's not forget that WF had one of the largest personal libraries in Westeros prior to its sack. Maester Luwin also had a very heavy chain. Sansa was a good student and is a reader - not the actions of someone who lacks intellectual curiousity. In KL, she very quickly learned what to say and do in order to serve. Sansa lasted for a year in a half in KL which indicated an incredibly large degree of self-control, a feat that most adults in our time would be able to achieve. In AFFC, we saw Sansa's further growth as well. LF, a far better game player than Tyrion is, feels she is intelligent enough to be his protege. She is running the Eeyrie household.

Sansa also displays a very high emotional intelligence. Early on in AFFC, she witnesses LF's meetings with the Lords Declarent. She makes observations about each ones which all turn out to be correct and figures out the schemes with Lyn Corbray. Later, we see her knowing exactly what to do with little Robert to get him down the mountain, she disarms and flirts with knights, and LF has confidence in her ability to woo and win Harry the Heir. In Storm, Sansa looks at the situation with Loras and Margaery and correctly figures out that there is another kingslayer in the making. In the same book, Sansa displayes her high EQ again at the Purple Wedding. Tyrion observes her talking to several individuals and remarks that she would have made a good queen. She is even able to deceive LF, lies and arbor gold. When you add all this together, it is very clear that Sansa is excellent at reading and understanding people. There is nothing to indicate that she lacks intellectual curiosity or is not eager to learn.

As for prefabricated patterns and growing beyond the limitations of her upbringing, again, let's look at Sansa's story arc. She is currently living the life of a bastard and is finding a great deal of freedom in that role- a far cry from that of a high-born lady. She has no desire to marry again, completely contrary to the role expected of someone from her station. We also see a sexual awakening as well as potential friendships with Randa and Mya. It's obvious that Sansa is going to have opportunities to explore and own her sexuality in a way contrary to societal expectations for someone of her social stations.

Circumstances have been forcing her for quite some time now.

[Woman of War]

#222

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ARYa_Nym, on 21 May 2012 - 03:53 AM, said:
He did want Sansa. Wanting someone doesn't mean sexually. He wanted her love and simultaneously wanted Shae sexually. 5 minutes later he wants Shae to be jealous. He's bitter that he can only get love from someone like Shae. He later thinks of them as false. Tyrion has insecurities. While they're understandable he has the tendency to go looking for love in the wrong places. If he can't find it in Sansa (his wife) he was willing to get it from Shae (his paid mistress). Basically if his wife won't provide him what he needs he will go elsewhere. I don't think that Tysha could have been his only chance. That was years ago. Sure most women wouldn't want him but if he spends all his time looking for love in the wrong places he won't find it. Now I'm not one of those who thinks that he should get it from the more than willing Penny because I don't think that they're compatible but I think she illustrates his need to change his approach towards women.

Well, of course he looks for love at the wrong places - That's the kind of scar abuse leaves you. "No one will ever love you, dwarf, only your money", was what Tywin was hammering down on his head that night, and it worked.

For all his quick wit and sharp tongue are wort, deep down, Tyrion believes himself to be unworthy of love. Of course, he tries to get it every way he can, he tries to be a good Hand (By his father's terms of what a "good Hand" is, and that's problematic, but I can't fault him there), he tries to make his marriage with Sansa work out in spite of everything, and yes, he pays whores to pretend to like him. He does all of this and feels bitter about it, because he believes no one will ever love him.

It's a vicious circle, because this belief leaves him bitter and angry, and he snaps at people and try to play at the monster they believe him to be, which further estranges relations and, in turn, feeds his resentment.

And in fact, I believe that was what hurt him the most that night when Jaime told him Tysha was no whore. If she was no whore, she loved him for himself. Which means that if she could love him for himself, he wasn't such a wretch of an human being to begin with. He had a chance. Except, that was what he believed for, what, 10, 12 years? And in believing so, he became that wretch, he was vicious, he was cruel, he was unpleasing... He had a chance, once, but now he is a monster, now there's no one left to care. Once again, he sees no option but embrace his nature as an Imp. Father made an excellent job there, didn't he?

That's when he decides to embrace the monster he feels he should be, which is what motivates his appalling behavior in the first half of aDwD.

But I digress. What I mean to say is, Tyrion looks for love in the wrong place, yes, and in the wrong way as well, he never tries to connect, never allows any intimacy. But that's a learned pattern, something raising from the gang-rape scene. No one will ever love him in the traditional scene, so he looks for it in his whores. And he knows it's a foolish decision, but really, what can he do? Tyrion hungers for affection, for intimacy ("I want her laugh. I want her to bring me her joys, and her sorrows, and her lust"). And that's why I don't blame him for running straight to Shae. What was he supposed to do, keep trying to breach Sansa's impenetrable walls (Which are also completely understandable and relatable, BTW)? Shae is, despite everything, the best he can have.

And that's incredibly sad. That, and the fact that people continue to write off his miserable self-esteem, confidence and overall lack of affection issues as "misogyny".

Sand Snake No. 9, on 21 May 2012 - 04:40 AM, said:
Really? What gives you that idea?

I remember seeing something with that general meaning in one of his POVs. Might be recalling it wrong, tough., so I'll not press the issue. My point was, he didn't want to marry Sansa. His interactions with her were about making the best out of their marriage and, later, yes, projecting upon her his need for affection. But he never wanted Sansa.

Natalie_S, on 21 May 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:
He couldn't be in a relationship with someone from the smallfolk because his father would have assumed that she was only after the Lannister money and have her "punished". He couldn't marry anyone noble because Tywin said everyone refused him. So, exactly, where was he supposed to look for love? I think one of the important things in ADWD is that Tyrion starts in being in real relationship with people because he's out of Tywin's shadow. It may be just casual flirting (as with Septa Lemore) or in a unlikely friendship (as with Penny), but at least he's in the situation of being appreciated for what he is, and without dreading his father's revenge. As to Sansa, I don't think he was truly in love with her, but he was married to her nevertheless, and so tried to imagine sometimes what it would have been like to be in a "real" marriage. The scene at Joffrey's wedding when he looks at the Fossoway couple exchanging displays of affection is downright heartbreaking, especially when he compares it to his real situation. As the line when he's with Shae about how good it was to be holding someone and being held. He's (understandably, knowing his personal history) hungry for love, knows that he's supposed to find it in marriage, but can't escape the harsh reality.

And Natalie_S sums it better than I ever could.

That's the point.

That scene at the wedding. Ugh, that leaves me with a bitter taste at my mouth to this day. I mean, it's just like seeing one of those horribly cliché scenes where a poor waif is left freezing in a cold winter night, with her face pressed to some glass window, looking at a warm, happy family dinner. Tyrion desperately wants that, but believesknows he can't have that, and worst, believesknows it's his own fault. My poor dwarf... Tyrion's still, in many ways, that 13 years old boy.

It's not about the sex. That's not what he seeks with his whores. It's about those blissful moments he had with Tysha, that he wants back.

great post, Ser_Patrek

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His insecurities and lack of self-love are a huge factor in why I see him as incapable of having a healthy relationship

i do not think that it is GRRm's purpose to write about healthy relationships (All happy families are alike, every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way)  - if any relationship between a man and a woman  under the conditions of Martinworld  can be described as "healthy" the way we modern readers perceive it.
I believe Martin wants to write about the unlikely, the impossible, the unexpected, maybe the love despite all odds and friendship and real affection where no one expects it. So by making the point that a love relationship for someone like Tyrion is unreachable in that cruel world the author may prepare the ground that some miracle may happpen, the plotline "despite all odds". And maybe the author decides to destroy that sparkle of hope in a most cruel manner, by death, revenge, hatred or in which way ever.
But he may let us readers have a glimpse at the sweet part when no one expects it before the bitter part might come.

[Natalie_S]

Lyanna Stark, on 21 May 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

If we are meant to meekly accept that women get married off, why the addition of these very outspoken female POVs? we are clearly meant to sympathise with them, so arguing like you do that we should simply accept the status quo goes against what's in the actual novel. Arranged marraiges and women's subjugated roles are two linked issues that are brought up and problematised.

We are supposed to sympathise with them, but it's a completely different thing from considering selfish and mysoginist someone who doesn't challenge the status quo.
We are not talking about a character who is fighting to keep arranged marriages or thinks that they are the right way to treat women: he's been forced into the marriage almost as much as Sansa (he wasn't dragged to the temple, but Tywin didn't leave him much of a choice either).

Lyanna Stark, on 21 May 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

He never thinks what? "Women are inferior". Do you think real life misiogynist go around thinking "women are inferior" or that they just have a lot of preconceived notions about women and that they just aren't up to par with men? The fact that Tyrion doesn't specifically think that "women are inferior" does not absolve him of misogyny. That would be a really silly way of defining it.

It would be in real life, in western society, where thinking stuff like that and even more saying it is considered socially unacceptable.
But if he really had something against women it wouldn't be a problem in Westeros: many times other characters say things like that freely, as if it was an unquestionable truth (ex: Joffrey talking about "soft-hearted" women that shouldn't be trusted in taking decisions, or Tarly talking to Brienne).
He thinks many horrible things about Cersei, but never underestimates her because of her sex.

Lyanna Stark, on 21 May 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

Really? I got the opposite impression. He uses sexualised demeaning language when he thinks that he wants to hurt Cersei. He wants to dominate her and defile her, hence rape, and not that he wants to cut her head off, or something. I think it's clear it ties into his totally fucked up view of women and his difficulty to relate with women, due to the lack of mother and any sort of meaningful female interaction. How often does he threaten to rape Jaime?

I'm sorry, but I can't see the sexualization you're talking about (except the "rape and kill" quote, for which i wrote in the previous post).
How is shovelling elephant poo sexual?
He hates her and wants her dead, even more, he wants her to suffer.
He said it to her himself: "I have never liked you, Cersei, but you were my own sister, so I never did you harm. You've ended that. I will hurt you for this. I don't know how yet, but give me time. A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid".
it's not a particularly kind thought, granted, but it's not mysogynist either.
He hates her sister, who happens to be a woman.
I think he mentioned rape because it's the most horrible thing that he can think of (in fact he saw what happened to Tysha).

As you mention Jaime, I think he doesn't want to kill him at all: he claims he does, but he thinks about him with affection despite himself, in unexpected times (for example when they ask him what he misses from Westeros he immediately thinks of him).
The relationship between Tyrion and Jaime is troubled now, but I think there's room for forgiveness and an eventual reconciliation.
The one between Tyrion and Cersei is far beyond that, on both parts.

Lyanna Stark, on 21 May 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

Joffrey is the King. He's in power. Shae is a whore and Penny a little dwarf girl. Tyrion as Hand slapping Joffrey the King is a relationship that is nearly among equals, since Joffrey is a minor and a pretty dumb king to boot. Shae and Penny are both IN Tyrion's power. Shae being a paid whore and Penny a scared little girl. They can in no way be compared without also viewing the complete dichotonomy in the power balances.  

So, what conclusion does that bring to?
That Tyrion slaps equally men and women, independently from their status or the power balance.
Does it make him a violent person? Possibly.
Does it make him a mysogynyst? I don't think so.

Again, I'm not trying to absolve Tyrion for all his crimes, he's a flawed character and that's one of the reasons why I like him.
But I strongly disagree about many of the accusations that I often read on this board. He has flaws but not ALL the flaws.

[Kittykatknits]

Woman of War, on 20 May 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

But Rapsie, we know all this and most posters do not deny it. We may though differ in interpretations. Of course Tyrion as partner would demand a definitely adult and independently thinking woman who is not afraid or hadicapped by courtesies to insist on her position in a relationship because she knows that she, this imaginary character,, is not in the world to please others but has her own life to live. A woman who simply turns her back when she feels demeaned.

So, he needs a strong, independent, witty women who is not handicapped by courtesies? Someone like Septa Lemore? The very same women he dismissed for all those qualities and just wanted to have sex with. Tyrion makes it very clear that those qualities are not something he values in women.

bgona, on 20 May 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

Sorry but right now at ADWD that I´m still reading I can say that Tyrion right now bores me so much that I´m anxious to finish his POV chapters.

Just wanted to tell you that I found this pretty funny. I didn't find all his chapters boring but some had me wishing they were over. But, I would say that about everything in Essos.

Ser_Patreck, on 20 May 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

The Tysha business still plague him, to the point that he cries while talking about it to random people in the road (Bronn, on the High Road, for example). The bit about "she was a whore" didn't make him any less guilty for the way it all happened - It just added more hurt to the farce, since it was basically Tywin telling Tyrion "You stupid dwarf, do you think a woman will ever love you for anything other than your money?"

I won't address all your points as others already have done a great job of doing so and I agree with them.
You are correct that Tyrion is plagued over his marriage with Tysha. That is obvious from the very first time that he mentions her. You are also correct that they were both young and victims in this situation. Here is the thing though - Tyrions is plagued over what happened to him. He reflects on their marriage several years later and not once does it cross his mind that Tysha was the victim of a cruel and disgusting crime. He thought she was a prostitute and it is not until he learns the truth that his feelings change. But, Tysha was his WIFE. Even if he was not in a position to stop it then, Tyrion never made any effort to look for her, see if she had a child, make sure she was ok....he never did a thing except feel sorry for himself.

Natalie_S, on 21 May 2012 - 03:54 AM, said:

All Westeros and Essos is full of misoginy. Unfortunately the condition of women in ASOIAF is appalling.

That doesn't excuse Tyrions actions. Saying that other people commit murder does not make the action OK.

Natalie_S, on 21 May 2012 - 03:54 AM, said:

  It's a bit ponitless, i think, to judge behaviour towards women by our standards.

Well, that is contrary to some remarks made by Martin. He's stated that he has written these books to require re-reads and inspire discussion. He also wrote these books for a modern audience. According to your argument, we should not judge any action that might be different that what we do.

Natalie_S, on 21 May 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

Why doesn't anybody seem to think that Ned Stark is a horrible father? He was going to place Sansa in an arranged marriage. Hoster Tully too. I don't see a huge amount of Hoster Tully hate here, but he put Lysa in a miserable marriage instead of letting her marry Littlefinger. Why is it ok for everyone but not for Tyrion?

Strawman argument! Looking through this thread, no one has stated that what Hoster Tully did was OK. In fact, there are several examples in the text where arranged marriages as you describe end in failure. Robert and Cersei is another example. We also have several women rejecting arranged marriages including Asha, Arianne, Alys Karstark, and Brienne.

Natalie_S, on 21 May 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

  When he claims he want to "rape and kill Cersei", that's what he says, not what he thinks. He's trying to scare the person he's talking to there, he's playing the monster.  

He is choosing to use sexualized violence to describe how he wants to get revenge against Cersei. That's misogny. Her gender is the determining factor in how he wants to hurt her. If gender was not an issue, he would just say he wants to strange or poison her or something.

Someone earllier in this thread brought up a quote by Martin that I think needs repeating. Brashcandy, was it you?
Tyrion Lannister is my favourite. He is the grayest of the gray. In every conventional sense, he is on the wrong side but you have to agree with some of the things he is doing while loathing others.
http://www.sfsite.com/01a/gm95.htm

The man is not evil but we don't need to white-wash or dismiss his bad actions to like or appreciate his character.

Edited by Kittykatknits, 21 May 2012 - 10:19 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Natalie_S, on 21 May 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

We are supposed to sympathise with them, but it's a completely different thing from considering selfish and mysoginist someone who doesn't challenge the status quo. We are not talking about a character who is fighting to keep arranged marriages or thinks that they are the right way to treat women: he's been forced into the marriage almost as much as Sansa (he wasn't dragged to the temple, but Tywin didn't leave him much of a choice either).

Tyrion agrees to  marry Sansa because Tywin dangles a pretty girl with a huge dowry like a carrot in front of Tyrion. Absolving him of this is white washing, smae as the first time you brought it up. Tyrion agreeing to marry Sansa is selfish, purely and utterly. He has no thoughts for what she wants or if he can ever make her happy, he just thinks about what he can gain. Which Tywin well knows. Tyrion ends up hating it a lot because he deceives himself, but putting them on equal footing here is ignoring who has the power and who is disempowered. Sansa is a hostage with no rights. Tyrion is as Hand her captor. If he was truly selfless he would have sent her back to her family, but he does not.

Quote

It would be in real life, in western society, where thinking stuff like that and even more saying it is considered socially unacceptable. But if he really had something against women it wouldn't be a problem in Westeros: many times other characters say things like that freely, as if it was an unquestionable truth (ex: Joffrey talking about "soft-hearted" women that shouldn't be trusted in taking decisions, or Tarly talking to Brienne). He thinks many horrible things about Cersei, but never underestimates her because of her sex. I'm sorry, but I can't see the sexualization you're talking about (except the "rape and kill" quote, for which i wrote in the previous post).

So you are actually saying here,  completely honestly, that wishing rape on someone is not sexualised? It is purely used because it is sexualised and demeaning. That is how it is used against women. He also doesn't mention it in passing, but several times. If he wants her dead, like you claim, he would want her just killed, maybe a beheading. But he speicifically and repeatedly thinks and talks about rape. Sexualised violence. As previously stated, he wishes to kill Jaime, but has no wish to rape him. Hence it is also specifically aimed at women.

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. He hates her sister, who happens to be a woman. I think he mentioned rape because it's the most horrible thing that he can think of (in fact he saw what happened to Tysha).

Rape is not worse than death which everyone knows. Tyrion specifically uses it as you yourself state here because it was something that was done to Tysha, again reflecting his really, really bad and unhealthy relationship with women, his difficulty to relate, his need to somehow dominate and defile. These are expressions of misogyny that Tyrion needs to get over for him to have a somewhat normal and healthy relationship in the future.

Quote

The one between Tyrion and Cersei is far beyond that, on both parts. So, what conclusion does that bring to? That Tyrion slaps equally men and women, independently from their status or the power balance. Does it make him a violent person? Possibly. Does it make him a mysogynyst? I don't think so. Again, I'm not trying to absolve Tyrion for all his crimes, he's a flawed character and that's one of the reasons why I like him. But I strongly disagree about many of the accusations that I often read on this board. He has flaws but not ALL the flaws.

You are trying to do your best to absolve him from misogynist actions, for reasons I cannot begin to fathom. It is part of Tyrion's character to have extreme difficulties relating to women. As I said above, removing that from him removes from his character and where he finally may end up being, i.e. hopefully having resolved his issues and having grown as a character. Pretending that the issues aren't there, are refusing to call them by their correct name won't make them magically go away, however.

[Rapsie]

There is also a difference between an Arranged Marriage and a Forced Marriage. While Ned would have arranged a marriage for Sansa, he would have taken her feelings into account. Most arranged marriages are mutually beneficial.

The Sansa / Tyrion marriage was a forced marriage not by Sansa's family but by her jailors to one of her jailors. Tyrion was Hand and was keeping Sansa in KL just as much as the other Lannisters were. The marriage brought Sansa no benefits and was a pure and simple land grab by the Lannisters. Tyrion knew he could only be Lord of Winterfell if Sansa's brother was killed. He entered the marriage knowing his father was actively trying to have Robb killed. Also the Alys situation, Dany's marriage in ADWD and of course Robb's own statements all highlight that it was likely that Tywin was going to have Sansa murdered after she had a child. At best he was condemning her to be a prisoner for the rest of her life.

While I think he willfully blinded himself to this before the marriage and tried to convince himself it would be another Tysha experience, he eventually realised it was a mistake. At which point he starts feeling sorry for himself and muttering about being forced into the marriage, yet again shirking any personal responsibility for his actions.

[Pellaeon]

Rapsie, on 21 May 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

There is also a difference between an Arranged Marriage and a Forced Marriage. While Ned would have arranged a marriage for Sansa, he would have taken her feelings into account. Most arranged marriages are mutually beneficial. The Sansa / Tyrion marriage was a forced marriage not by Sansa's family but by her jailors to one of her jailors. Tyrion was Hand and was keeping Sansa in KL just as much as the other Lannisters were. The marriage brought Sansa no benefits and was a pure and simple land grab by the Lannisters.

Wasn't Cerseis marriage a "arranged" too? Turn out very well

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Tyrion knew he could only be Lord of Winterfell if Sansa's brother was killed. He entered the marriage knowing his father was actively trying to have Robb killed.

Robb was a traitor,out of the pov of the iron throne he already loose his claim to Winterfell

Quote

Also the Alys situation, Dany's marriage in ADWD and of course Robb's own statements all highlight that it was likely that Tywin was going to have Sansa murdered after she had a child. At best he was condemning her to be a prisoner for the rest of her life. While I think he willfully blinded himself to this before the marriage and tried to convince himself it would be another Tysha experience, he eventually realised it was a mistake. At which point he starts feeling sorry for himself and muttering about being forced into the marriage, yet again shirking any personal responsibility for his actions.

I don't believe Tywin would murder Sansa, he had no reason for it, he wasn't a bloodthirsty monster who only want to torture his son

Edited by Pellaeon, 21 May 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[Rapsie]

@ Pellaeon

Cersei and Robert's marriage not being happy is a bit of a Strawman argument. No one is saying an arranged match will be sunshine and roses. Marriages based on love can go south as well as arranged ones. Forced marriages however are a completely different kettle of fish.

Lots of Traitors bend knee and keep their Castles. Cat advises Robb to do this at one point.

Tywin states that Sansa's happiness is not important. He also heavily implies that Tyrion will be taking a Grandson of Ned Stark north, but not Sansa. It would have been too dangerous for her to return to the North as the chances of Tyrion and the child having an accident and Sansa then being married off to a Northern Lord are just too great. Also why would you think the Tywin that orchestrated Tysha's gang rape, had Elia raped and murdered and her children murdered and hung Tyrion put to dry at his trial would care in the slightest for his son's feelings. The Lannisters needed a child with Stark blood to control the North, and the only reason they choose Tyrion over Lancel was that Tywin thought Tyrion couldn't restrain himself from sleeping with Sansa and Lancel might not have been able to consummated the marriage due to his injuries.

[Pellaeon]

@Rapsie
I meen the Lancel or Tyrion decision of GRRM in matters of the story arc not in matters of what Tywin want
If Robb bend the knee they never let him Winterfell, they would send him to the wall or execute him
Tywin might need a child with stark blood, but why only one, he would let her live, what would this mean for his reputation if he kills his daughter in law, or for the Lannister legacy?

[Rapsie]

Tywin has already had Elia of Dorne killed and didn't mind what it did to his reputation. Also it doesn't have to be that obvious. A death in childbirth could easily be arranged with Pycelle's know how.

I'm not sure what you meant about Lancel. Lancel gave up his marriage for the Church (pissing off his Father and the Freys no end), And therefore would not give Sansa the plot armour her current marriage does. Also I suspect Lancel's arc is going to be taking a skull crushing blow by Ser Robert Strong in the not too distant future. But that is only a theory.

[Brangwen]

Rapsie, on 21 May 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

Also the Alys situation, Dany's marriage in ADWD and of course Robb's own statements all highlight that it was likely that Tywin was going to have Sansa murdered after she had a child. At best he was condemning her to be a prisoner for the rest of her life.

I think that Tywin would've killed Sansa once she produced two male heirs, in case one died young.  Until then I think he would've kept her confined and a hostage to ensure the obedience of the North.  He claims he had no part in Princess Elia's death and simply forgot to mention her but I never believed that.  He is too shrewd to order the deaths of the children then forget their mother.  However, I think Tyrion would've at least tried to save Sansa.  It may have been a feeble attempt since he is self-centered and would love to be a High Lord but I think he would offer up some protest.

P.S. I am fairly new to the site and I just finished all the Sansa: Pawn to Player threads which I truly enjoyed!

[brashcandy]

Brangwen, on 21 May 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

P.S. I am fairly new to the site and I just finished all the Sansa: Pawn to Player threads which I truly enjoyed!

Great Continue the party in the Rethinking Sansa threads.

Edited by brashcandy, 21 May 2012 - 11:02 PM.