281 replies to this topic

[Rapsie]

Brangwen, on 21 May 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

I think that Tywin would've killed Sansa once she produced two male heirs, in case one died young. Until then I think he would've kept her confined and a hostage to ensure the obedience of the North. He claims he had no part in Princess Elia's death and simply forgot to mention her but I never believed that. He is too shrewd to order the deaths of the children then forget their mother. However, I think Tyrion would've at least tried to save Sansa. It may have been a feeble attempt since he is self-centered and would love to be a High Lord but I think he would offer up some protest.

Agreed. Tyrion even at the point of Joff's wedding realised that he couldn't protect himself from Joff, nevermind Sansa. I suspect he would have tried to get himself and Sansa out of KL and found that Sansa, would have been forced to stay by his family.

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P.S. I am fairly new to the site and I just finished all the Sansa: Pawn to Player threads which I truly enjoyed!

Glad you like them. As Brashcandy said, there is still discussion going on!

[jjd98]

I may be wrong as 13 pages is a lot of posts to read through but has nobody mentioned Littlefingers proposal of marrying her to Harry the Heir? I think she'd be much more interested in marrying the heir to the Vale of Arryn than remaining married to Tyrion, plus with Littlefinger pulling the strings I think the marriage to Tyrion could be annulled fairly easily.

[Kittykatknits]

Pellaeon, on 21 May 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

Wasn't Cerseis marriage a "arranged" too? Turn out very well

Robb was a traitor,out of the pov of the iron throne he already loose his claim to Winterfell


I don't believe Tywin would murder Sansa, he had no reason for it, he wasn't a bloodthirsty monster who only want to torture his son

Rapsie, on 21 May 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

Tywin states that Sansa's happiness is not important. He also heavily implies that Tyrion will be taking a Grandson of Ned Stark north, but not Sansa. It would have been too dangerous for her to return to the North as the chances of Tyrion and the child having an accident and Sansa then being married off to a Northern Lord are just too great. Also why would you think the Tywin that orchestrated Tysha's gang rape, had Elia raped and murdered and her children murdered and hung Tyrion put to dry at his trial would care in the slightest for his son's feelings. The Lannisters needed a child with Stark blood to control the North, and the only reason they choose Tyrion over Lancel was that Tywin thought Tyrion couldn't restrain himself from sleeping with Sansa and Lancel might not have been able to consummated the marriage due to his injuries.

Rapsie is correct on all points. One more thing to remember....
Tywin's own sister wanted Edmure killed to solidfy Lannister/Frey control over Riverrun. It was Jaime, the one who is described as being not Tywin's son who spared his life. If, and it is a big if, Tywin decided not to have her killed, then she would have been a prisoner for the rest of her life. Her kids would have been taken from her to help solidify Lannister control in the North.

Tywin could not beat Robb in the battlefield so he arranged another way to end the war. He even alludes to that with Tyrion. I guess if you want to soften Tywin a bit, I could point out that he wanted Robb murdered in a hunting accident, not the Red Wedding. But when you stack that against setting Gregor lose in the Riverlands, the murder of Elia and her children, and the sack of KL, I don't know that this counts for a whole lot.

[slebourg]

I predict that Tyrion and Sansa will wind up together near the very end of the series (book 7). I think that before that happens, Tyrion will find Tysha and it will be a big disappointment, and Sansa will have a romantic relationship with Sandor, and he will die defending her from something, probably fire (I think this will happen partly because of his sigil, 3 dogs who died defending their master, and his saying that I dog will die for you but won't lie to you).
This is why I predict that Tyrion & Sansa will get together in the end:
1) Literary structure of the story: Both Tyrion and Sansa are major POV characters. Both appear near the very beginning of the story, when Robert and the Lannisters visit Winterfell. I don't think a good author like GRRM would spend so much time and detail developing the pathos of their relationship if he wasn't taking it somewhere (Tyrion feels compassion mixed with desire; Sansa feels aversion mixed with a little bit ot gratitude). GRRM might have one of them die (I don't think so, but it is possible). but an annullment would be a really weak conclusion to their story, like just dropping a major thread. I think he's probably going to pick up thieir story and continue it.
2) I think there is a lot of foreshadowing of a romantic relatioinship between Sansa& Sandor. Many people seem to see the Sandor/Sansa andTyrion/Sansa relationships as an either/or, one or the other.  I think they fit together. I think she will have a relationship with Sandor, he will die, and she will later be reunited with Tyrion. Sandor and Tyrion have some things in common, especially physical ugliness, balanced with goodness underneath. I think Sandor is on the Quiet Isle undergoing a transition to a much better person. I think Tyrion has been mostly good (no one but Ned is 100% good) all through the story. I think Sansa is beginning to realize that physical appearance is less important, and a romantic relationship with Sandor will complete that transition, and actually pave the way for appreciation of Tyrion when they meet again.
3) Parallel with her parent's marriage. I think the marriage of Ned and Cat foreshadows the marriage of Tyrion and Sansa, with a lot of twists and turns, and certainly the details are different, but many things are similar. Each will have have had a first love (Ned-Ashara, Cat-Brandon,Tyrion-Tysha; Sansa-Sandor). We are told that Cat came around to loving Ned because he was so kind, the very word Sansa uses to describe Tyrion. Both marriages were arranged, and neither was the first love ot the other. In fact, the parallel goes further:
* Ned apparently fell in love with Ashara at Harrenhal. She was "dishonored" at Harrenhal (according to Ser Barristan) by one of the Starks (Brandon? Ned? Benjen-we just know he was probably a Stark) and she got pregnant. She left, and had the baby, probably faked her suicide and reappeared under a new identity: Septa Lemure (that's my theory, anyway).
* Tyrion fell in love with Tysha. She was "dishonored" (to say the least). According to the Tysha-Sailor's wife theory, she got pregnant with daughter Lanna who has golden hair (who was actually the father? Tyrion? Tywin? Gerion? we just know he was probably a Lannister). Then she reappeared under a new identity-the Sailor's wife.
* Cat was originally betrothed to Brandon and seems to have have liked him a lot. He rode off to KL, and got roasted by fire in his armor. She married Ned instead.
* Sandor, according to my theory, will be Sansa's first love (how far will it go? I'm not sure, at least a kiss to fulfill the imagined kiss). I think he's going to get roasted, maybe by dragonfire, protecting her.
4) I think the story of Florian and Jonquill foreshadows both a Sandor and a Tyrion relationship. We don't know the whole story, but we are told that Florian is both a jester in motley (Tyrion is associated with motley repeatedly in the stories), and a warrior/knight (Sandor is a fighter, and associated with knighthood in reverse, as an un-knight), which is a peculiar combination, unless there is symbolism involved. I think Florian is a symbol of both Tyrion and Sandor.
5) By the way, I don't think Tyrion and Sansa will wind up together because "that's how it ought to be". A lot of people respond to this pairing as if they were real people, instead of literary characters, and they argue from a moral point of view based on 21st century values. They say things like "yuk", or "she's too young for him" or "she could do better". This kind of reaction is based on 21st century culture and values.

Edited by slebourg, 15 August 2012 - 09:57 AM.

[Pellaeon]

Kittykatknits, on 22 May 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

Tywin's own sister wanted Edmure killed to solidfy Lannister/Frey control over Riverrun. It was Jaime, the one who is described as being not Tywin's son who spared his life. If, and it is a big if, Tywin decided not to have her killed, then she would have been a prisoner for the rest of her life. Her kids would have been taken from her to help solidify Lannister control in the North.

Genna wanted Edmure death because he was the Lord of Riverrun and would be a danger even disenfranchised, but the Lannisters wanted to use Sansa claim, and they wanted to use her to bring the northern Lords into their boat, they would need her at Winterfell to persuade the northerner that Tyrions child is indeed Neds grandson. She would be away from Tywin and Cersei and would live with Tyrion at Winterfell, Tyrions safety could be guaranteed by a party of Lannister guards. Also the northern lords aren't like Tywin (except of Roose, but I think the Lannister would extingt the Boltons to gain some sympathies and the warden title), they wouldn't kill Tyrions child to prevent the Lannisters to rule.

[David Selig]

slebourg, on 15 August 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

I think she will have a relationship with Sandor, he will die, and she will later be reunited with Tyrion. Sandor and Tyrion have some things in common, especially physical ugliness, balanced with goodness underneath. I think Sandor is on the Quiet Isle undergoing a transition to a much better person. I think Tyrion has been mostly good (no one but Ned is 100% good) all through the story. I think Sansa is beginning to realize that physical appearance is less important, and a romantic relationship with Sandor will complete that transition, and actually pave the way for appreciation of Tyrion when they meet again.

Not this again...

What's there to appreciate in Tyrion? His murderous nature? His ruthless selfishniss and petty vindictiveness?  His complete inability to understand and have real empathy with women?

I asked before in this thread, I guess it bears repeating - what would it take for some of the Tyrion fans to stop calling him "a good person"? He's already a multiple murderer (including his own father and the woman he supposedly loved), he raped the slave girl in Selhorys, he organised the burning alive of thousands to keep a sadistic psychopath on the throne, he let a murderer go unpunished because he was one of his men, he handed over the Antler men to Joffrey even though he knew very well what was likely to happen, he wanted to turn the Vale into a wasteland because he was mad at Lysa, he broke Maryllion's fingers because he sang sarcastic songs about him...What more do you need?

Edited by David Selig, 15 August 2012 - 10:57 AM.

[mormont]

slebourg, on 15 August 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

This is why I predict that Tyrion & Sansa will get together in the end:
1) Literary structure of the story: Both Tyrion and Sansa are major POV characters. Both appear near the very beginning of the story, when Robert and the Lannisters visit Winterfell. I don't think a good author like GRRM would spend so much time and detail developing the pathos of their relationship if he wasn't taking it somewhere (Tyrion feels compassion mixed with desire; Sansa feels aversion mixed with a little bit ot gratitude). GRRM might have one of them die (I don't think so, but it is possible). but an annullment would be a really weak conclusion to their story, like just dropping a major thread. I think he's probably going to pick up thieir story and continue it.

The problem here is that GRRM has actually spent hardly any time or detail developing the 'relationship' between Tyrion and Sansa. They have no significant interactions before ACOK. In ACOK, they interact directly only briefly. Neither at that time shows any indication of romantic interest in the other. After the wedding, obviously they interact, but the defining feature of that interaction is that they have no relationship. They're married, but it is loveless and there is zero indication that Sansa, at least, ever wants it to become a loving relationship.

Post-ASOS, Tyrion's thought of Sansa only briefly and Sansa has hardly thought of Tyrion at all. I would venture to suggest that every mention of the one in the other's POV since ASOS could fit into a single page: maybe a page and a half, at most.

For two major POV characters that were actually married, the author could hardly have spent less time on their relationship. The pathos of it is mostly actually to do with developing Tyrion's sense of self-pity (a major part of his arc all along, which develops in ADWD).

This simply isn't developed as a romance. You'd be hard put to find more than three or four sentences that can even be read that way.

Edited by mormont, 15 August 2012 - 10:43 AM.

[Pellaeon]

mormont, on 15 August 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

The problem here is that GRRM has actually spent hardly any time or detail developing the 'relationship' between Tyrion and Sansa. They have no significant interactions before ACOK. In ACOK, they interact directly only briefly. Neither at that time shows any indication of romantic interest in the other. After the wedding, obviously they interact, but the defining feature of that interaction is that they have no relationship. They're married, but it is loveless and there is zero indication that Sansa, at least, ever wants it to become a loving relationship.

Post-ASOS, Tyrion's thought of Sansa only briefly and Sansa has hardly thought of Tyrion at all. I would venture to suggest that every mention of the one in the other's POV since ASOS could fit into a single page: maybe a page and a half, at most.

For two major POV characters that were actually married, the author could hardly have spent less time on their relationship. The pathos of it is mostly actually to do with developing Tyrion's sense of self-pity (a major part of his arc all along, which develops in ADWD).

This simply isn't developed as a romance. You'd be hard put to find more than three or four sentences that can even be read that way.

Until know they didn't have much time or oppertunity to develop one and the external factors weren't as good as they could be, but Tyrion had more interaction with Sansa then with any other Stark and this interactions they never were negativ, he always was nice to her in AGoT or ACoC, and the sort of iteractions in ASoS weren't negativ either

[mormont]

Pellaeon, on 15 August 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Until know they didn't have much time or oppertunity to develop one and the external factors weren't as good as they could be, but Tyrion had more interaction with Sansa then with any other Stark and this interactions they never were negativ, he always was nice to her in AGoT or ACoC, and the sort of iteractions in ASoS weren't negativ either

'Until now they didn't have much time or opportunity to develop one': as of now they have no time or opportunity to develop one. Nor is there any reason to suppose they'll have any time or opportunity in the near future. So this seems an odd thing to say.

As for 'they never were negative': in ACOK, Tyrion is her jailer, keeping her confined in King's Landing, alone and apart from her family. He has the power to free her, if he's willing to take the consequences, but he shows zero interest in doing so. In ASOS, they were locked into a loveless marriage based on her claim to Winterfell, a marriage Sansa was literally forced into. AGOT, I'll give you: they have no interactions in that book at all that I can recall, so yeah, no interaction at all probably qualifies as 'not negative'.

These things are presumably what you mean by 'the external factors weren't as good as they could be'. If so, this is a little like saying that Aerys II and Rickard Stark might have got off on the wrong foot.

From Sansa's point of view, all of her direct interactions with Tyrion were in a context where she was a prisoner and most were in a context of outright abuse by one of his close relatives - people who he worked tirelessly to keep in a position of power. All of them took place at a time when he was actively trying to defeat her family and help Joff to fulfill his threats to kill her brothers. That's pretty negative.

And I'll repeat: she shows no indication of any romantic interest, or really of any other positive feelings about Tyrion. If this is the stuff of which romance is made, I'll eat my hat.

[pat]

Why people hate Tyrion like he is a real dwarf in their bed is beyond me.
The other side hates Sansa like she beats them up and takes their Lemoncakes

I will say this. what part of the Brienne storyline led us to beleive Biter would eat her face. It was never developed, not foreshdowed. nobody wanted that to happen. maybe killed sure we would miss Brienne. a good warrior death for the female Knight people would cheer reading on the bus. but her face eaten... nope not in a million years would i guess. find me any evidence this was a possibility. she watched Biter eat her face.

Finding evidence that tyrion will or wont stay married to sansa is not gonna happen it just isnt there. You can list all his  regular crimes war crimes and sex crimes. it wont sway me. i read the book too. She doesnt think about him in bed you say. i say oh well so what. Brienne dreams of jaime. clearly foreshadowing her face being eaten. how does that fit into Literature 101

If you think Sansas or Tyrions hopes and dreams affect the direction the story is going for them you may be mistaken.  Robb fans were gutted by his death. Cat dieng was awfull. Oh but they reached the end of their character arc. yeah Sansa or tyrion can do that too. Tyrion seems irrelevant to the story now. and Sansa only lets us see littlefingers moves in the Vale. What if littlefinger dies and The Vale plotline wraps up. BYE BYE Sansa. Would george kill a Girl POV . i cant see why not. He may kill Tommen onscreen. If he can Have Briennes face bit off he can kill sansa before or just after her big plot move. If you have faith in her plot armor good. try not to think about Jon getting stabbed. Or Briennes face. Theons weiner, The Location of Robbs Head. jamies Hand or Brans broken back. we saw him before we saw Sansa. his Plot armor amounted to sweet F..... all.


With all the horrors in the story when some person mentions a continuation of a marriage that already exists in story. although it appears like the very last thing that could ever happen (and Seven save GRRM if its consummated, Hell hath no fury like a bunch of woman scorned on the internet) i cant say its not a possibility. Unless it is confirmed by GRRM Im leaving room in my mind for redheaded.kids in Casterly rock being as conceited as only a Lannister can be.

edit to add. i will not respond to any portions of this post. its mysogeny free i think

Edited by pat, 15 August 2012 - 12:20 PM.

[Pellaeon]

mormont, on 15 August 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

As for 'they never were negative': in ACOK, Tyrion is her jailer, keeping her confined in King's Landing, alone and apart from her family. He has the power to free her, if he's willing to take the consequences, but he shows zero interest in doing so.

He didn't take her hostage, when he comes to KL she already was one, Cerseis hostage, and about him freeing her, the "consequences" would be his brothers death, he tried to start negotiations for an exchange, he knew there was not much hope but at least he tried. Would you set her free if this means your brothers death? This was an impossibility. How could he be her jailer if there was no realistic choice? The only thing he could do for her was to make it as comfortable as possible for her, and if I remember their encounter in te tower of the hand right, after her beating he tried

Quote

And I'll repeat: she shows no indication of any romantic interest, or really of any other positive feelings about Tyrion. If this is the stuff of which romance is made, I'll eat my hat.

If they become a romantic couble, I hope you upload a video of you eating your hat

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

slebourg, on 15 August 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

I predict that Tyrion and Sansa will wind up together near the very end of the series (book 7). I think that before that happens, Tyrion will find Tysha and it will be a big disappointment, and Sansa will have a romantic relationship with Sandor, and he will die defending her from something, probably fire (I think this will happen partly because of his sigil, 3 dogs who died defending their master, and his saying that I dog will die for you but won't lie to you).
This is why I predict that Tyrion & Sansa will get together in the end:
1) Literary structure of the story: Both Tyrion and Sansa are major POV characters. Both appear near the very beginning of the story, when Robert and the Lannisters visit Winterfell. I don't think a good author like GRRM would spend so much time and detail developing the pathos of their relationship if he wasn't taking it somewhere (Tyrion feels compassion mixed with desire; Sansa feels aversion mixed with a little bit ot gratitude). GRRM might have one of them die (I don't think so, but it is possible). but an annullment would be a really weak conclusion to their story, like just dropping a major thread. I think he's probably going to pick up thieir story and continue it.
2) I think there is a lot of foreshadowing of a romantic relatioinship between Sansa& Sandor. Many people seem to see the Sandor/Sansa andTyrion/Sansa relationships as an either/or, one or the other.  I think they fit together. I think she will have a relationship with Sandor, he will die, and she will later be reunited with Tyrion. Sandor and Tyrion have some things in common, especially physical ugliness, balanced with goodness underneath. I think Sandor is on the Quiet Isle undergoing a transition to a much better person. I think Tyrion has been mostly good (no one but Ned is 100% good) all through the story. I think Sansa is beginning to realize that physical appearance is less important, and a romantic relationship with Sandor will complete that transition, and actually pave the way for appreciation of Tyrion when they meet again.
3) Parallel with her parent's marriage. I think the marriage of Ned and Cat foreshadows the marriage of Tyrion and Sansa, with a lot of twists and turns, and certainly the details are different, but many things are similar. Each will have have had a first love (Ned-Ashara, Cat-Brandon,Tyrion-Tysha; Sansa-Sandor). We are told that Cat came around to loving Ned because he was so kind, the very word Sansa uses to describe Tyrion. Both marriages were arranged, and neither was the first love ot the other. In fact, the parallel goes further:
* Ned apparently fell in love with Ashara at Harrenhal. She was "dishonored" at Harrenhal (according to Ser Barristan) by one of the Starks (Brandon? Ned? Benjen-we just know he was probably a Stark) and she got pregnant. She left, and had the baby, probably faked her suicide and reappeared under a new identity: Septa Lemure (that's my theory, anyway).
* Tyrion fell in love with Tysha. She was "dishonored" (to say the least). According to the Tysha-Sailor's wife theory, she got pregnant with daughter Lanna who has golden hair (who was actually the father? Tyrion? Tywin? Gerion? we just know he was probably a Lannister). Then she reappeared under a new identity-the Sailor's wife.
* Cat was originally betrothed to Brandon and seems to have have liked him a lot. He rode off to KL, and got roasted by fire in his armor. She married Ned instead.
* Sandor, according to my theory, will be Sansa's first love (how far will it go? I'm not sure, at least a kiss to fulfill the imagined kiss). I think he's going to get roasted, maybe by dragonfire, protecting her.
4) I think the story of Florian and Jonquill foreshadows both a Sandor and a Tyrion relationship. We don't know the whole story, but we are told that Florian is both a jester in motley (Tyrion is associated with motley repeatedly in the stories), and a warrior/knight (Sandor is a fighter, and associated with knighthood in reverse, as an un-knight), which is a peculiar combination, unless there is symbolism involved. I think Florian is a symbol of both Tyrion and Sandor.
5) By the way, I don't think Tyrion and Sansa will wind up together because "that's how it ought to be". A lot of people respond to this pairing as if they were real people, instead of literary characters, and they argue from a moral point of view based on 21st century values. They say things like "yuk", or "she's too young for him" or "she could do better". This kind of reaction is based on 21st century culture and values.

1. No. Being main characters is not a point for them being together. Actually being main characters hurts this. There is nothing romantic in their interaction. Tyrion doesn't even desire her until Tywin "convinces" him to marry her, and he decides Sansa can be Tysha 2.0.

He sees what he wants to see in her, not the real her which certainly does not suggest they will get together. And don't get me wrong. I'm not claiming Tyrion is a villain for this. It is mostly his neediness for actual love and more the tragic part of his character.

2. So, many things wrong with this.

A. Sansa already can look beyond the physical. This is why she was OK with marrying a cripple.

B. Instead of creating Sandor and his whole plot line with Sansa, wouldn't it have been easier and much less pointless to have some romantic moments with Tyrion rather than having a character who is there to pave a way for Tyrion. t just becomes an awkward way to tell the story. There should be at least some foreshadowing, some hints at romance, or even, "if he was cute" before Sandor dies.

C. Sandor and Tyrion are on two different paths. Sandor is getting over his anger. Tyrion is not. That may change, but this is not a little issue.

D. Sansa "realizing" (despite that she has already) looks do not matter does not be Tyrion/Sansa is a go. Looks do not matter =/=fetish for ugly people. There needs to be real reason why Sansa would want Tyrion romantically. Oh. And being the nice captor is bull shit. The thing that being a nice guy in no creates an obligation for a girl/woman to sleep with/love the guy. Because frankly, if that is the entire motivation, it's less nice guy and more dishonest douchebaggery.

3. No. Just no. Catelyn was not a prisoner of the Starks. She had no reason to afraid that she would be killed for refusing Ned or after producing an heir or two.

These parallels are weak even if we discount the VERY important differences between the two. They had other lovers before they get together? They and most of Westeros. Ned and Tyrion might have a child they don't know about? OK. again, not exactly uncommon. Why use they are both man/woman combinations?

4. You realize how Sansa's Arc is about how stories are shit, right? Joffery, The Hound (who was the knight saving the damsel-in-distress during BBW), and Dontos all wind up being not the stories she loved, but flawed people in mockeries of stories (the handome prince is a psychopath, the knight is a self-loathing drunk, and the fool knight is being paid).

5. Well, GRRM does fairly good job at writing real people. But from a literary aspect, why would these two be together?

pat, on 15 August 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

Why people hate Tyrion like he is a real dwarf in their bed is beyond me.
The other side hates Sansa like she beats them up and takes their Lemoncakes

I will say this. what part of the Brienne storyline led us to beleive Biter would eat her face. It was never developed, not foreshdowed. nobody wanted that to happen. maybe killed sure we would miss Brienne. a good warrior death for the female Knight people would cheer reading on the bus. but her face eaten... nope not in a million years would i guess. find me any evidence this was a possibility. she watched Biter eat her face.

Finding evidence that tyrion will or wont stay married to sansa is not gonna happen it just isnt there. You can list all his  regular crimes war crimes and sex crimes. it wont sway me. i read the book too. She doesnt think about him in bed you say. i say oh well so what. Brienne dreams of jaime. clearly foreshadowing her face being eaten. how does that fit into Literature 101

If you think Sansas or Tyrions hopes and dreams affect the direction the story is going for them you may be mistaken.  Robb fans were gutted by his death. Cat dieng was awfull. Oh but they reached the end of their character arc. yeah Sansa or tyrion can do that too. Tyrion seems irrelevant to the story now. and Sansa only lets us see littlefingers moves in the Vale. What if littlefinger dies and The Vale plotline wraps up. BYE BYE Sansa. Would george kill a Girl POV . i cant see why not. He may kill Tommen onscreen. If he can Have Briennes face bit off he can kill sansa before or just after her big plot move. If you have faith in her plot armor good. try not to think about Jon getting stabbed. Or Briennes face. Theons weiner, The Location of Robbs Head. jamies Hand or Brans broken back. we saw him before we saw Sansa. his Plot armor amounted to sweet F..... all.

With all the horrors in the story when some person mentions a continuation of a marriage that already exists in story. although it appears like the very last thing that could ever happen (and Seven save GRRM if its consummated, Hell hath no fury like a bunch of woman scorned on the internet) i cant say its not a possibility. Unless it is confirmed by GRRM Im leaving room in my mind for redheaded.kids in Casterly rock being as conceited as only a Lannister can be.

edit to add. i will not respond to any portions of this post. its mysogeny free i think

Oh. I am pretty sure it has plenty of mysogeny (I can't spell either). Like the assumpition that only women are against this or the Internet women scorned comment. Apparently, it's critical thinking free too.

Brienne getting injured is in no way like a relationship. To be believable, there does need to be development. A battle wound can happen anytime. Or your comparison to the Jamie/Brienne development and saying it didn't foreshadow her injury clearly shows you need some junior high literature classes before attempting Literature 101.

Pellaeon, on 15 August 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

He didn't take her hostage, when he comes to KL she already was one, Cerseis hostage, and about him freeing her, the "consequences" would be his brothers death, he tried to start negotiations for an exchange, he knew there was not much hope but at least he tried. Would you set her free if this means your brothers death? This was an impossibility. How could he be her jailer if there was no realistic choice? The only thing he could do for her was to make it as comfortable as possible for her, and if I remember their encounter in te tower of the hand right, after her beating he tried

Did he have much of a choice? Nope. Does that somehow make him not one of her captors? Nope. And really, regardless of Tyrion wanted, Joffery would see her dead if Jamie got out. Jamie being captured was the only reason he didn't have her executed before. Yet, Tyrion still tried to get Jamie out. Even if Tyrion wasn't there for that (I forget), he knows that Sansa's value as a hostage becomes null once Jamie is free.

I don't blame him for trying to save his brother. But let's not try to make him a victim of Sansa's imprisonment.

[Pellaeon]

Lord Bronn Stokeworth, on 15 August 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Did he have much of a choice? Nope. Does that somehow make him not one of her captors? Nope. And really, regardless of Tyrion wanted, Joffery would see her dead if Jamie got out. Jamie being captured was the only reason he didn't have her executed before. Yet, Tyrion still tried to get Jamie out. Even if Tyrion wasn't there for that (I forget), he knows that Sansa's value as a hostage becomes null once Jamie is free.

I don't blame him for trying to save his brother. But let's not try to make him a victim of Sansa's imprisonment.

I not try to make him a victim, but he isn't to blame either, and I don't believe Joffrey would try to kill Sansa, book Joffrey isn't TV Joffrey, he was much more under Cerseis controll and to frightend of Tyrion fo such a stunt. And if Robb had agree to the deal, Tyrion would let Sansa go, but when Jaime got free Tywin was in charge, this is the tragic of the situation

[brashcandy]

Lord Bronn Stokeworth, on 15 August 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

<<snip>>

Great response Lord Bronn

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Pellaeon, on 15 August 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

I not try to make him a victim, but he isn't to blame either, and I don't believe Joffrey would try to kill Sansa, book Joffrey isn't TV Joffrey, he was much more under Cerseis controll and to frightend of Tyrion fo such a stunt. And if Robb had agree to the deal, Tyrion would let Sansa go, but when Jaime got free Tywin was in charge, this is the tragic of the situation

For a short period maybe. He was getting more and more out of control before his death. Tyrion knew the deal was bad. He was lying in the deal. He offered Arya too. He was keeping lines of communication open to buy time and sneak his rescue squad in there. I'm honestly not sure what Tyrion would have done if Robb agreed since he offered both sisters.

Tyrion was one of Sansa's captors. He may not have chosen to be. But he still was.

[Ser_Patreck]

Lord Bronn Stokeworth, on 15 August 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

For a short period maybe. He was getting more and more out of control before his death. Tyrion knew the deal was bad. He was lying in the deal. He offered Arya too. He was keeping lines of communication open to buy time and sneak his rescue squad in there. I'm honestly not sure what Tyrion would have done if Robb agreed since he offered both sisters.

Tyrion was one of Sansa's captors. He may not have chosen to be. But he still was.

That's like saying Ned Stark was one of the people who demanded Rhaegar's head.

[slebourg]

QUOTE:
[img]http://asoiaf.westeros.org/public/style_images/asoiaf/snapback.png[/img]mormont, on 15 August 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:
"The problem here is that GRRM has actually spent hardly any time or detail developing the 'relationship' between Tyrion and Sansa. They have no significant interactions before ACOK. In ACOK, they interact directly only briefly. Neither at that time shows any indication of romantic interest in the other. After the wedding, obviously they interact, but the defining feature of that interaction is that they have no relationship. They're married, but it is loveless and there is zero indication that Sansa, at least, ever wants it to become a loving relationship.



RESPONSE:

You are right in saying that on Sansa's part, there were no romantic feelings while they were together in King's Landing. That's not true of Tyrion, however. He says that he wants her, wants to comfort her, to hear her laugh, to have her bring him her joys, sorrows and lust. That's pretty romantic. Also, at Joffrey's wedding, Tyrion uses the word "love" twice in connection with her, and while not saying directly that he loves her, he seems to be moving toward the brink of falling in love with her. After hearing her skillful conversation with the other guests, he thinks to himself, "She's good at this . . .  she would have made a good queen, and a better wife, if Joffrey had had the good sense to love her." Later when she doesn't laugh at the dwarf show, he says that he could have loved her for it, but she seemed distracted. Then, when she disappears, and he apparently thinks she betrayed him by poisoning Joffrey and leaving him with the blame, he still won't betray her, even to defend himself. Of course, we know he is mistaken in thinking she betrayed him, and he will find that out eventually.

After she left King's landing, I saw what I consider a little bit of second thought on her part, maybe a hint of regret.  She says she got a fluttering feeling when she thought she would never have to sleep with him again. Then she goes on to think, "that's what she wanted . . . . wasn't it?" The hesitation, and question seem to me to indicate that at least for a moment, she wasn't so sure she wanted to loose him. I think this may have been GRRM's way of leaving just a tiny crack in the door of Sansa's heart, perhaps in preparation for an eventual reunion. During Petyr and Lysa's wedding night, she thinks briefly of Tyrion saying "in the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers. I could be good to you . . ", but then she pushes the thought away by reminding herself that it was another Lannister lie. Again, this could be another momentary second thought of regret.

Edited by slebourg, 15 August 2012 - 03:02 PM.

[aedalia]

Tyrion wants to be a good husband and once he got married he wanted to love Sansa. That's half of what makes arranged marriages work- like Ned and Cat. They both wanted to do their best, so they built something together.

Sansa, currently, does not want to be Tyrion's wife. I don't think she knows what she wants right now, to be honest. Her whole world has been destroyed- family, beliefs, heck, "Sansa" herself even has since she's someone else entirely.

I also think Tyrion's wants changed when Jamie told him about Tysha. I think he has to fix that before they even have a hope. I'm not opposed to Tyrion/Sansa, but there's too much going on for them to actually sit down and hash out their differences.

[Natalie_S]

I think that at this point there's no way to know what it's going to happen. We can just guess.
Most foreshadowing are recognised as such only ex post, when the event foreshadowed has already happened: for example, when Theon said that Hodor at still knew what his name was, nobody could guess that there was a foreshadowing of Theon's later identity crisis, but there you go.
So, a lot of people have complained that the possible foreshadowing mentioned in the other 29 pages topic about Sansa and Tyrion was not convincing. Fine. A lot of things in the book could mean something, or its exact opposite.
That's why it is called "foreshadowing" and not "NOW I'M GOING TO TELL YOU EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE NEXT BOOKS".
(By the way: R+L=J is not foreshadowing, it's clues because the event happened years before the actual story)
We'll only know when the last book will be released.
I don't think over-analyzing their behaviour at this stage is very useful in this regard (except maybe to draw conclusions about their personalities) because everything can change, no, everything MUST change in the next books. Otherwise, they would be very boring books.
We can just try to guess in which direction they will, and Tyrion/Sansa is one of the possible outcomes.
I really don't understand why people are so ferocious in denying this possibility: there's no way to define whoìs right and who's wrong. Only GRRM knows what he wants to happen, and he's definitely not going to write it on this board.

Edited by Natalie_S, 15 August 2012 - 03:03 PM.

[brashcandy]

slebourg, on 15 August 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

QUOTE:
[img]http://asoiaf.westeros.org/public/style_images/asoiaf/snapback.png[/img]mormont, on 15 August 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:
"The problem here is that GRRM has actually spent hardly any time or detail developing the 'relationship' between Tyrion and Sansa. They have no significant interactions before ACOK. In ACOK, they interact directly only briefly. Neither at that time shows any indication of romantic interest in the other. After the wedding, obviously they interact, but the defining feature of that interaction is that they have no relationship. They're married, but it is loveless and there is zero indication that Sansa, at least, ever wants it to become a loving relationship.



RESPONSE:

You are right in saying that on Sansa's part, there were no romantic feelings while they were together in King's Landing. That's not true of Tyrion, however. He says that he wants her, wants to comfort her, to hear her laugh, to have her bring him her joys, sorrows and lust. That's pretty romantic. Also, at Joffrey's wedding, Tyrion uses the word "love" twice in connection with her, and while not saying directly that he loves her, he seems to be moving toward the brink of falling in love with her. After hearing her skillful conversation with the other guests, he thinks to himself, "She's good at this . . .  she would have made a good queen, and a better wife, if Joffrey had had the good sense to love her." Later when she doesn't laugh at the dwarf show, he says that he could have loved her for it, but she seemed distracted. Then, when she disappears, and he apparently thinks she betrayed him by poisoning Joffrey and leaving him with the blame, he still won't betray her, even to defend himself. Of course, we know he is mistaken in thinking she betrayed him, and he will find that out eventually.

I'm sorry, but it's not pretty romantic at all. What you're hearing there is Tyrion projecting his needs unto Sansa. He wants all these things, but that doesn't mean he loves her, it simply highlights that he hoped she would be able to satisfy the desires he holds for a romantic relationship. In order to love someone you have to know them, and there needs to be some kind of genuine interaction between the two of you that can allow such feelings to develop. That isn't present at all in this relationship. Tyrion can appreciate that she doesn't laugh at the dwarf show because he realises that she's not an insensitive person, but this doesn't equate to him truly loving her, or Sansa coming to desire him. He does indeed see she would have made a good queen, but again, even though he's married to her, Tyrion's perspective on Sansa is always from the outside looking in. She has qualities he can admire but they don't bring them any closer together as husband and wife.

Quote

After she left King's landing, I saw what I consider a little bit of second thought on her part, maybe a hint of regret.  She says she got a fluttering feeling when she thought she would never have to sleep with him again. Then she goes on to think, "that's what she wanted . . . . wasn't it?" The hesitation, and question seem to me to indicate that at least for a moment, she wasn't so sure she wanted to loose him. I think this may have been GRRM's way of leaving just a tiny crack in the door of Sansa's heart, perhaps in preparation for an eventual reunion.

I've pointed this out to you already, but again, you're misunderstanding this passage in the books. Sansa doesn't want Tyrion to lose his life over something he didn't do. She knows he's innocent in Joffrey's murder and feels bad about his plight. She wanted to be free of him, but achieving this via his unfair punishment creates doubts in her,

Quote

During Petyr and Lysa's wedding night, she thinks briefly of Tyrion saying "in the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers. I could be good to you . . ", but then she pushes the thought away by reminding herself that it was another Lannister lie. Again, this could be another momentary second thought of regret.

I would hardly think this is a positive memory. She's not thinking back and wishing she could do things differently with him, but rather that he tried to deceive her and she was able to recognize it.

Edited by brashcandy, 15 August 2012 - 03:35 PM.