slebourg, on 15 August 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:
I predict that Tyrion and Sansa will wind up together near the very end of the series (book 7). I think that before that happens, Tyrion will find Tysha and it will be a big disappointment, and Sansa will have a romantic relationship with Sandor, and he will die defending her from something, probably fire (I think this will happen partly because of his sigil, 3 dogs who died defending their master, and his saying that I dog will die for you but won't lie to you).
This is why I predict that Tyrion & Sansa will get together in the end:
1) Literary structure of the story: Both Tyrion and Sansa are major POV characters. Both appear near the very beginning of the story, when Robert and the Lannisters visit Winterfell. I don't think a good author like GRRM would spend so much time and detail developing the pathos of their relationship if he wasn't taking it somewhere (Tyrion feels compassion mixed with desire; Sansa feels aversion mixed with a little bit ot gratitude). GRRM might have one of them die (I don't think so, but it is possible). but an annullment would be a really weak conclusion to their story, like just dropping a major thread. I think he's probably going to pick up thieir story and continue it.
2) I think there is a lot of foreshadowing of a romantic relatioinship between Sansa& Sandor. Many people seem to see the Sandor/Sansa andTyrion/Sansa relationships as an either/or, one or the other. I think they fit together. I think she will have a relationship with Sandor, he will die, and she will later be reunited with Tyrion. Sandor and Tyrion have some things in common, especially physical ugliness, balanced with goodness underneath. I think Sandor is on the Quiet Isle undergoing a transition to a much better person. I think Tyrion has been mostly good (no one but Ned is 100% good) all through the story. I think Sansa is beginning to realize that physical appearance is less important, and a romantic relationship with Sandor will complete that transition, and actually pave the way for appreciation of Tyrion when they meet again.
3) Parallel with her parent's marriage. I think the marriage of Ned and Cat foreshadows the marriage of Tyrion and Sansa, with a lot of twists and turns, and certainly the details are different, but many things are similar. Each will have have had a first love (Ned-Ashara, Cat-Brandon,Tyrion-Tysha; Sansa-Sandor). We are told that Cat came around to loving Ned because he was so kind, the very word Sansa uses to describe Tyrion. Both marriages were arranged, and neither was the first love ot the other. In fact, the parallel goes further:
* Ned apparently fell in love with Ashara at Harrenhal. She was "dishonored" at Harrenhal (according to Ser Barristan) by one of the Starks (Brandon? Ned? Benjen-we just know he was probably a Stark) and she got pregnant. She left, and had the baby, probably faked her suicide and reappeared under a new identity: Septa Lemure (that's my theory, anyway).
* Tyrion fell in love with Tysha. She was "dishonored" (to say the least). According to the Tysha-Sailor's wife theory, she got pregnant with daughter Lanna who has golden hair (who was actually the father? Tyrion? Tywin? Gerion? we just know he was probably a Lannister). Then she reappeared under a new identity-the Sailor's wife.
* Cat was originally betrothed to Brandon and seems to have have liked him a lot. He rode off to KL, and got roasted by fire in his armor. She married Ned instead.
* Sandor, according to my theory, will be Sansa's first love (how far will it go? I'm not sure, at least a kiss to fulfill the imagined kiss). I think he's going to get roasted, maybe by dragonfire, protecting her.
4) I think the story of Florian and Jonquill foreshadows both a Sandor and a Tyrion relationship. We don't know the whole story, but we are told that Florian is both a jester in motley (Tyrion is associated with motley repeatedly in the stories), and a warrior/knight (Sandor is a fighter, and associated with knighthood in reverse, as an un-knight), which is a peculiar combination, unless there is symbolism involved. I think Florian is a symbol of both Tyrion and Sandor.
5) By the way, I don't think Tyrion and Sansa will wind up together because "that's how it ought to be". A lot of people respond to this pairing as if they were real people, instead of literary characters, and they argue from a moral point of view based on 21st century values. They say things like "yuk", or "she's too young for him" or "she could do better". This kind of reaction is based on 21st century culture and values.
1. No. Being main characters is not a point for them being together. Actually being main characters hurts this. There is nothing romantic in their interaction. Tyrion doesn't even desire her until Tywin "convinces" him to marry her, and he decides Sansa can be Tysha 2.0.
He sees what he wants to see in her, not the real her which certainly does not suggest they will get together. And don't get me wrong. I'm not claiming Tyrion is a villain for this. It is mostly his neediness for actual love and more the tragic part of his character.
2. So, many things wrong with this.
A. Sansa already can look beyond the physical. This is why she was OK with marrying a cripple.
B. Instead of creating Sandor and his whole plot line with Sansa, wouldn't it have been easier and much less pointless to have some romantic moments with Tyrion rather than having a character who is there to pave a way for Tyrion. t just becomes an awkward way to tell the story. There should be at least some foreshadowing, some hints at romance, or even, "if he was cute" before Sandor dies.
C. Sandor and Tyrion are on two different paths. Sandor is getting over his anger. Tyrion is not. That may change, but this is not a little issue.
D. Sansa "realizing" (despite that she has already) looks do not matter does not be Tyrion/Sansa is a go. Looks do not matter =/=fetish for ugly people. There needs to be real reason why Sansa would want Tyrion romantically. Oh. And being the nice captor is bull shit. The thing that being a nice guy in no creates an obligation for a girl/woman to sleep with/love the guy. Because frankly, if that is the entire motivation, it's less nice guy and more dishonest douchebaggery.
3. No. Just no. Catelyn was not a prisoner of the Starks. She had no reason to afraid that she would be killed for refusing Ned or after producing an heir or two.
These parallels are weak even if we discount the VERY important differences between the two. They had other lovers before they get together? They and most of Westeros. Ned and Tyrion might have a child they don't know about? OK. again, not exactly uncommon. Why use they are both man/woman combinations?
4. You realize how Sansa's Arc is about how stories are shit, right? Joffery, The Hound (who was the knight saving the damsel-in-distress during BBW), and Dontos all wind up being not the stories she loved, but flawed people in mockeries of stories (the handome prince is a psychopath, the knight is a self-loathing drunk, and the fool knight is being paid).
5. Well, GRRM does fairly good job at writing real people. But from a literary aspect, why would these two be together?
pat, on 15 August 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:
Why people hate Tyrion like he is a real dwarf in their bed is beyond me.
The other side hates Sansa like she beats them up and takes their Lemoncakes
I will say this. what part of the Brienne storyline led us to beleive Biter would eat her face. It was never developed, not foreshdowed. nobody wanted that to happen. maybe killed sure we would miss Brienne. a good warrior death for the female Knight people would cheer reading on the bus. but her face eaten... nope not in a million years would i guess. find me any evidence this was a possibility. she watched Biter eat her face.
Finding evidence that tyrion will or wont stay married to sansa is not gonna happen it just isnt there. You can list all his regular crimes war crimes and sex crimes. it wont sway me. i read the book too. She doesnt think about him in bed you say. i say oh well so what. Brienne dreams of jaime. clearly foreshadowing her face being eaten. how does that fit into Literature 101
If you think Sansas or Tyrions hopes and dreams affect the direction the story is going for them you may be mistaken. Robb fans were gutted by his death. Cat dieng was awfull. Oh but they reached the end of their character arc. yeah Sansa or tyrion can do that too. Tyrion seems irrelevant to the story now. and Sansa only lets us see littlefingers moves in the Vale. What if littlefinger dies and The Vale plotline wraps up. BYE BYE Sansa. Would george kill a Girl POV . i cant see why not. He may kill Tommen onscreen. If he can Have Briennes face bit off he can kill sansa before or just after her big plot move. If you have faith in her plot armor good. try not to think about Jon getting stabbed. Or Briennes face. Theons weiner, The Location of Robbs Head. jamies Hand or Brans broken back. we saw him before we saw Sansa. his Plot armor amounted to sweet F..... all.
With all the horrors in the story when some person mentions a continuation of a marriage that already exists in story. although it appears like the very last thing that could ever happen (and Seven save GRRM if its consummated, Hell hath no fury like a bunch of woman scorned on the internet) i cant say its not a possibility. Unless it is confirmed by GRRM Im leaving room in my mind for redheaded.kids in Casterly rock being as conceited as only a Lannister can be.
edit to add. i will not respond to any portions of this post. its mysogeny free i think
Oh. I am pretty sure it has plenty of mysogeny (I can't spell either). Like the assumpition that only women are against this or the Internet women scorned comment. Apparently, it's critical thinking free too.
Brienne getting injured is in no way like a relationship. To be believable, there does need to be development. A battle wound can happen anytime. Or your comparison to the Jamie/Brienne development and saying it didn't foreshadow her injury clearly shows you need some junior high literature classes before attempting Literature 101.
Pellaeon, on 15 August 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:
He didn't take her hostage, when he comes to KL she already was one, Cerseis hostage, and about him freeing her, the "consequences" would be his brothers death, he tried to start negotiations for an exchange, he knew there was not much hope but at least he tried. Would you set her free if this means your brothers death? This was an impossibility. How could he be her jailer if there was no realistic choice? The only thing he could do for her was to make it as comfortable as possible for her, and if I remember their encounter in te tower of the hand right, after her beating he tried
Did he have much of a choice? Nope. Does that somehow make him not one of her captors? Nope. And really, regardless of Tyrion wanted, Joffery would see her dead if Jamie got out. Jamie being captured was the only reason he didn't have her executed before. Yet, Tyrion still tried to get Jamie out. Even if Tyrion wasn't there for that (I forget), he knows that Sansa's value as a hostage becomes null once Jamie is free.
I don't blame him for trying to save his brother. But let's not try to make him a victim of Sansa's imprisonment.