281 replies to this topic

[Pellaeon]

Lyanna Stark, on 06 May 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

And yet, Jaime defied Tywin just fine. Tyrion did not, reread the chapter, he can see the upside for him in marrying Sansa.

For Tywin the only question was Tyrion or Lancel, and Tyrion knowed that, Sansa was gona marring a Lannister if Tyrion said yes or no. The importand thing is what happend afterward.

[Woman of War]

Faint , it is well possible that the story of Sansa and Tyrion has ended so far because both may have found other love interests, if any, in the end - or both may be dead.
But I tend to agree with Howling 4Reed:
Both are important as characters, so their personal fate will not develop being only a minor sideline of the story in general. (a Harry Potter like epilogue where Tyrion stumbles over Tysha after having grieved for dead Sansa....???.....don't think so)
Given GRRM's tendency for repetitive arcs I think it is well possible that the Sansa/Tyrion story will be constructed a second time with a plot turned around and a different outcome:
Two bloody weddings, two trials by combat with a different outcome, I think Martin repeats history, first time is the tragedy, then.....who knows, farce, peace, bliss or another tragedy.
And I absolutely do not see how, even in Sansa's opinion, Tyrion can be summarized under "Lannister" any longer. Apart from that, there are Tommen and Myrcella, not Lannisters to be hated either. I believe those homogenous house loyalties will be obsolete anyway when the story goes on.

Edited by Woman of War, 06 May 2012 - 02:08 PM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Woman of War, on 06 May 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

And I absolutely do not see how, even in Sansa's opinion, Tyrion can be summarized under "Lannister" any longer. Apart from that, there are Tommen and Myrcella, not Lannisters to be hated either. I believe those homogenous house loyalties will be obsolete anyway when the story goes on.

Tyrion and Sansa themselves disagree with you. Sansa does not want to be a Lannister and Tyrion himself thinks it won't work.

[Pellaeon]

Lyanna Stark, on 06 May 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

Tyrion and Sansa themselves disagree with you. Sansa does not want to be a Lannister and Tyrion himself thinks it won't work.

Yes but this was in King's Landing, the situation change since then totaly and is in progress, and opinions may change

[Lyanna Stark]

Pellaeon, on 06 May 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

Yes but this was in King's Landing, the situation change since then totaly and is in progress, and opinions may change

And have they, in AFFC or ADWD, mentioned anything about how great they thought it was to be married?

Tyrion thinks of Sansa once I think and it's in a totally non committal way. Sansa thinks she does not want to be married at all. I have no idea how you get from AFFC and ADWD they Sansa and Tyrion suddenly start fancying each other from afar. There is nothing in the novels to indicate this.

[Woman of War]

Actually the things that are "hinted at" so far may be those unlikely to happen, Martin won't indicate at his ending too early.
But this all is so very speculative, we know nothing at least two volumes away from the finale.

Edited by Woman of War, 06 May 2012 - 02:29 PM.

[Pellaeon]

Lyanna Stark, on 06 May 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

And have they, in AFFC or ADWD, mentioned anything about how great they thought it was to be married?

Tyrion thinks of Sansa once I think and it's in a totally non committal way. Sansa thinks she does not want to be married at all. I have no idea how you get from AFFC and ADWD they Sansa and Tyrion suddenly start fancying each other from afar. There is nothing in the novels to indicate this.

I mean their oppinions could change, as long as nobody of us is GRRM all we say about their futur is hypothetical

Edited by Pellaeon, 06 May 2012 - 02:30 PM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Pellaeon, on 06 May 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

I mean their oppinions could change, as long nobody of us is GRRM all we say about their futer is hypothetical

Sure, but why would they? Especially Sansa really has nothing to gain from being married to Tyrion as she does not want a Lannister, she does not find him attractive and has expressed that she'd rather not be married at all. If they were going to change their minds so radically, I would assume there would be some hints about it given. But there are none.

Their personalities are also nothing alike. Tyrion likes quick wit and snappy comments, which is not at all the type of person Sansa is like. She's very much like Ned, thoughtful, compassionate and honourable.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 06 May 2012 - 02:33 PM.

[Pellaeon]

Lyanna Stark, on 06 May 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

Sure, but why would they? Especially Sansa really has nothing to gain from being married to Tyrion as she does not want a Lannister, she does not find him attractive and has expressed that she'd rather not be married at all. If they were going to change their minds so radically, I would assume there would be some hints about it given. But there are none.

at the moment it's better to be married to a Lannister than with LF alone without any protection of his plots, and it's might be necessary in the futur to secure the peace in the realm

Edited by Pellaeon, 06 May 2012 - 02:36 PM.

[Woman of War]

There I have to agree: Tyrion and Sansa have a very different sense of humour, something that can be difficult in a relationship, but Sansa is only thirteen, at that age a quick wit is still developing , and where she is now she might learn something about irony.
And they both may have some compassion for each other's situation, being both described as rather decent characters. So they might come to respect each other as friends, maybe as lovers or not, Martin knows.

Edited by Woman of War, 06 May 2012 - 02:48 PM.

[Howling Mad]

Lyanna Stark, on 06 May 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

And yet, Jaime defied Tywin just fine. Tyrion did not, reread the chapter, he can see the upside for him in marrying Sansa.

I readily admit there is an upside to Tyrion marrying Sansa.  The point you seem to reject out of hand is that there may come a time when reaffirming her marriage to Tyrion is both beneficial and desirable for Sansa.

[Lyanna Stark]

Howling4Reed, on 06 May 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

I readily admit there is an upside to Tyrion marrying Sansa.  The point you seem to reject out of hand is that there may come a time when reaffirming her marriage to Tyrion is both beneficial and desirable for Sansa.

And when would that be exactly?

Being married to Tyrion is nothing that will ever make Sansa happy in the long term. Ever.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 06 May 2012 - 02:45 PM.

[Woman of War]

Lyanna, you may be right in the end or not. But you can definitely not know better than e.g. Howling4Reed or me or anyone. There is an author who decides.

[Howling Mad]

Lyanna Stark, on 06 May 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

And when would that be exactly?

Being married to Tyrion is nothing that will ever make Sansa happy in the long term. Ever.

I give Sansa more credit then you do for i beleive that she can overcome her prejudices and make an informed and enlightened choice.  As the story stands now Sansa is benefiting from her marriage to Tyrion as it keeps her from being forced into a marriage with Petyr Baelish or being forced into another marriage for Petyr's own ends.  There's no reason GRRM couldn't bring the story around that Sansa would desire keeping the marriage with Tyrion intact for the longterm.  Sansa is not the naive little girl she started out to be.

[Lyanna Stark]

Howling4Reed, on 06 May 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

I give Sansa more credit then you do for i beleive that she can overcome her prejudices and make an informed and enlightened choice.  As the story stands now Sansa is benefiting from her marriage to Tyrion as it keeps her from being forced into a marriage with Petyr Baelish or being forced into another marriage for Petyr's own ends.  There's no reason GRRM couldn't bring the story around that Sansa would desire keeping the marriage with Tyrion intact for the longterm.  Sansa is not the naive little girl she started out to be.

Oh yes, as it stands *now* it is a good thing for Sanas, but you want Sansa to love someone who belongs to a family who killed her father, had her brother murdered at a wedding and threw her other brother out a window. Not to mention that she was tormented by Joffrey. Tyrion is also a hideous dwarf and not at all her personality type.

As for Sansa not being prejudiced anymore. She isn't. She thinks about the Hound positively and he's hardly the Knight of Flowers either.

[Howling Mad]

Lyanna Stark, on 06 May 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

Oh yes, as it stands *now* it is a good thing for Sanas, but you want Sansa to love someone who belongs to a family who killed her father, had her brother murdered at a wedding and threw her other brother out a window. Not to mention that she was tormented by Joffrey. Tyrion is also a hideous dwarf and not at all her personality type.

As for Sansa not being prejudiced anymore. She isn't. She thinks about the Hound positively and he's hardly the Knight of Flowers either.

I believe Sansa is capable of setting aside derserving hatred for the Lannisters for the truth about Tyrion, chiefly that Tyrion is not responsible for the acts committed by cersei, Jaime, Tywin, et al.  Setting aside a blood feud for the good of yourself, society, the realm would be a great leap for Sansa and Westeros, and i beleive Sansa is capable of making such as choice.

It is exactly people's prejudice against Tyrion's appearance "hideous dwarf" a prejudice initially shared by Sansa that would make her desire and acceptance of him as her husband that much more compelling of an act.

[Pellaeon]

Howling4Reed, on 06 May 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

I believe Sansa is capable of setting aside derserving hatred for the Lannisters for the truth about Tyrion, chiefly that Tyrion is not responsible for the acts committed by cersei, Jaime, Tywin, et al.  Setting aside a blood feud for the good of yourself, society, the realm would be a great leap for Sansa and Westeros, and i beleive Sansa is capable of making such as choice.

It is exactly people's prejudice against Tyrion's appearance "hideous dwarf" a prejudice initially shared by Sansa that would make her desire and acceptance of him as her husband that much more compelling of an act.

Tyrion isn't responsable for the crimes of house Lannister, he is the best of them

[Ned's Epic Beard]

This "marriage" is a last cruel jape by tywin lannister and abuse on sansa. Thank goodness It wasn't consummated and holds no value in westeros.

[Lyanna Stark]

Howling4Reed, on 06 May 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

It is exactly people's prejudice against Tyrion's appearance "hideous dwarf" a prejudice initially shared by Sansa that would make her desire and acceptance of him as her husband that much more compelling of an act.

How would be it "compelling" for Sansa to just meekly accept her fate? It really is extremely cruel to wish that upon her. I can't see any way for it to work, unless it's somehow induced by magic.

If you're after Sansa having a soft spot for an ugly guy, she's already showed an inclination to favour the Hound, but not Tyrion. The only woman who so far has really, really fancied Tyrion for himself after he got his horrible facial wound is Penny (if we don't count the lost Tysha who he hasn't seen for over a decade), but a lot of people just don't like her at all.

Penny and Tyrion also have far more interesting conversations, or at least conversations of mutual interest, and Tyrion realises he can learn something from Penny, like what it means to be a dwarf in a hostile environment (and that playing at being non-threatening is a good idea). She challenges him and despite himself he even gets up on the pig and jousts. With Sansa, he discusses peas and thought she was a total airhead. He even thought she was jealous of Margaery marrying Joffrey! Tyrion doesn't understand Sansa and she doesn't understand him, at all. He feels sorry for her since he realises he cannot undo the damage done to her and she mistrusts and pities him. That's a dreadful thing in a marriage.

Penny opens up to Tyrion in a completely different degree and Tyrion comes to care for her despite himself.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 06 May 2012 - 03:59 PM.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Lyanna Stark, on 06 May 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

How would be it "compelling" for Sansa to just meekly accept her fate? It really is extremely cruel to wish that upon her. I can't see any way for it to work, unless it's somehow induced by magic.

If you're after Sansa having a soft spot for an ugly guy, she's already showed an inclination to favour the Hound, but not Tyrion. The only woman who so far has really, really fancied Tyrion for himself after he got his horrible facial wound is Penny (if we don't count the lost Tysha who he hasn't seen for over a decade), but a lot of people just don't like her at all.

Penny and Tyrion also have far more interesting conversations, or at least conversations of mutual interest, and Tyrion realises he can learn something from Penny, like what it means to be a dwarf in a hostile environment (and that playing at being non-threatening is a good idea). She challenges him and despite himself he even gets up on the pig and jousts. With Sansa, he discusses peas and thought she was a total airhead. He even thought she was jealous of Margaery marrying Joffrey! Tyrion doesn't understand Sansa and she doesn't understand him, at all. He feels sorry for her since he realises he cannot undo the damage done to her and she mistrusts and pities him. That's a dreadful thing in a marriage.

Penny opens up to Tyrion in a completely different degree and Tyrion comes to care for her despite himself.

This! Tyrion and penny are perfect for each other if you think about it. They both share special bond of friendship which can be beneficial factor in marriage.
Also they both would fit in a small size bed perfectly!