281 replies to this topic

[Nausicaä]

Buckwheat, on 05 May 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

I do not think it is important in the eyes of the people in which religion they were married. Eddard and Catelyn were also married in a sept, and all the people in the North acknowledged their union. Sansa and Tyrion are still married, according to the laws of the realm.

The old gods and the Seven kind of co-exist and their followers seem to be pretty tolerant of one another, so it's kind of a murky territory... But I admit, I don't understand how Sansa's marriage could be valid in the eyes of Melisandre and Stannis. "A vow sworn to a tree has no more power than one sworn to your shoes... except for when you were forced by a false king to exchange a vow in the false faith with an enemy of your family, Lady Lannister"? I guess they didn't want to declare marriages of most of their followers invalid, so they avoided that subject, but it's such a useful tool to set unwanted marriages aside, I can't believe Mel hasn't thought of it. I fully expect the marriage between Stannis and Selyse to be set aside that way and for Shireen to be declared a bastard, if they try to burn her for her king's blood.

Howling4Reed, on 05 May 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

I think your on the right track about Tyrion, he is not evil IMHO. Its just as likely that Sansa will not need an annulment because her husband will be killed in the battle for Westeros, Meerreen, or against the Other.  Being a widow comes with the added benefit of inheriting Casterly Rock since Tyrion is still the heir.

She wouldn't inherit CR if she doesn't have his child or a child that she can pretend is his.

Howling4Reed, on 06 May 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

It is exactly people's prejudice against Tyrion's appearance "hideous dwarf" a prejudice initially shared by Sansa that would make her desire and acceptance of him as her husband that much more compelling of an act.

Not being attracted to someone is not being prejudiced or shallow. Not giving someone a chance because of some physical trait they have is prejudiced and shallow. Sansa gave Tyrion a chance and tried to find him desirable and couldn't. I can't believe people are still saying that she should be able to find the ugliest man she's ever seen attractive to prove her maturity.

Edited by Wentwarth, 06 May 2012 - 04:26 PM.

[Woman of War]

Fortunately we do not know what will have happened two books later, that would be thoroughly boring.
Actually at the moment I see some parallels in Tyrion's emotions towards  Penny and Sansa, a certain feeling of responsibility.
By Lyanna Stark:

Quote

Being married to Tyrion is nothing that will ever make Sansa happy in the long term. Ever.

These books are certainly not about everlasting happiness. If anything we can see happiness here as no more than an ephemerical illusion. GRRM will leave everything longterm to our imagination, no "ever after" promises.

[A Menina Cebola]

I always hope that they find their way back to each other. Sansa's ideals are based on a man being very gentlemanly and chivalrous. Tyrion is those things. He treats his women with respect, in a way. Even Shae, who was a whore, got a lot from Tyrion. He did everything he could to try and protect her wellbeing when they got to King's Landing. He didn't have to do that. If he had no respect for her, he'd just have found himself another whore.

He's intelligent, has some degree of common sense when it comes to war (maybe not physically, but he has displayed some degree of understanding of tactics) and he is wealthy and attentive. The only thing lacking from Sansa's point of view is the looks. But who knows? After being forced to grow up and see the world differently now she's in LittleFinger's clutches, she might go all Beauty and the Beast on him and realise that he is an excellent choice of husband deep down.

Maybe that's just me wishful thinking.

[David Selig]

Howling4Reed, on 06 May 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

I give Sansa more credit then you do for i beleive that she can overcome her prejudices and make an informed and enlightened choice.  As the story stands now Sansa is benefiting from her marriage to Tyrion as it keeps her from being forced into a marriage with Petyr Baelish or being forced into another marriage for Petyr's own ends.  There's no reason GRRM couldn't bring the story around that Sansa would desire keeping the marriage with Tyrion intact for the longterm.  Sansa is not the naive little girl she started out to be.

There's nothing naive about not wanting to be married to Tyrion, and it has nothing to do with him being a dwarf. He's simply a terrible person, a multiple murderer who's treated many women horribly, even some he claimed to love.

SleepingBeauty, on 06 May 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

]I always hope that they find their way back to each other. Sansa's ideals are based on a man being very gentlemanly and chivalrous. Tyrion is those things. He treats his women with respect, in a way. Even Shae, who was a whore, got a lot from Tyrion. He did everything he could to try and protect her wellbeing when they got to King's Landing. He didn't have to do that. If he had no respect for her, he'd just have found himself another whore.

He also, you know, killed Shae in the end (and even before that he treated her shabbily, slapping and scaring her when she tried to have areal talk with him, he only cared for sex). Yet you bring her up as an example of Tyrion treating women well and being chivalrous...

Edited by David Selig, 06 May 2012 - 04:47 PM.

[Pellaeon]

SleepingBeauty, on 06 May 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

I always hope that they find their way back to each other. Sansa's ideals are based on a man being very gentlemanly and chivalrous. Tyrion is those things. He treats his women with respect, in a way. Even Shae, who was a whore, got a lot from Tyrion. He did everything he could to try and protect her wellbeing when they got to King's Landing. He didn't have to do that. If he had no respect for her, he'd just have found himself another whore.

He's intelligent, has some degree of common sense when it comes to war (maybe not physically, but he has displayed some degree of understanding of tactics) and he is wealthy and attentive. The only thing lacking from Sansa's point of view is the looks. But who knows? After being forced to grow up and see the world differently now she's in LittleFinger's clutches, she might go all Beauty and the Beast on him and realise that he is an excellent choice of husband deep down.

Maybe that's just me wishful thinking.

[Howling Mad]

Lyanna Stark, on 06 May 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

How would be it "compelling" for Sansa to just meekly accept her fate? It really is extremely cruel to wish that upon her. I can't see any way for it to work, unless it's somehow induced by magic.

If you're after Sansa having a soft spot for an ugly guy, she's already showed an inclination to favour the Hound, but not Tyrion. The only woman who so far has really, really fancied Tyrion for himself after he got his horrible facial wound is Penny (if we don't count the lost Tysha who he hasn't seen for over a decade), but a lot of people just don't like her at all.

Penny and Tyrion also have far more interesting conversations, or at least conversations of mutual interest, and Tyrion realises he can learn something from Penny, like what it means to be a dwarf in a hostile environment (and that playing at being non-threatening is a good idea). She challenges him and despite himself he even gets up on the pig and jousts. With Sansa, he discusses peas and thought she was a total airhead. He even thought she was jealous of Margaery marrying Joffrey! Tyrion doesn't understand Sansa and she doesn't understand him, at all. He feels sorry for her since he realises he cannot undo the damage done to her and she mistrusts and pities him. That's a dreadful thing in a marriage.

Penny opens up to Tyrion in a completely different degree and Tyrion comes to care for her despite himself.

I see we are going to have to agree to disagree.  You have pigeon holed both Tyrion and Sansa into abject personifications which i refuse to do.  I give both Sansa and Tyrion credit for being capable of rising above their prejudices and current situations. While I can understand a position that has Sansa rejecting Tyrion because of the actions of his family or simply because Sansa does not love Tyrion, I reject the premise that Sansa is so shallow as to reject Tryion simply because he is a dwarf scarred from battle.

As for Tyrion and Penny the only thing they have in common is being short and in the same place at the same time. How this makes for a better marriage then two people raised and educated in noble houses that share a common culture puzzles me.

[David Selig]

So let me get this straight -  some of you think someone whose record with women includes:

1) participating in Tysha's gangrape and after being told she's whore, never caring what happened to her after the horrific gang rape even though she was 13 and a virgin two weeks before that

2) killing Shae

3) raping the slave girl in Volantris

4) terrorising for the evulz the slave girl in Illyrio's mansion

5) dreaming of raping his own sister

This is the kind of guy you think would make a great husband? I know good men are hard to find in Westeros, but come on, this is truly bizarre. Put your "Tyrion is so cool and fun to read about" goggles away for a second and think how desirable it would be in reality to be married to such a person...

Edited by David Selig, 06 May 2012 - 06:22 PM.

[A Menina Cebola]

David Selig, on 06 May 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

He also, you know, killed Shae in the end (and even before that he treated her shabbily, slapping and scaring her when she tried to have areal talk with him, he only cared for sex). Yet you bring her up as an example of Tyrion treating women well and being chivalrous...

Well there is that. She was a bit of an annoying cow though. And she did betray him. So I excused him for a few murders. Especially since he was wrongly accused of killing the evil JoffBeast.

On the whole he seemed a far better choice than most of the other men available. Except maybe the Hound. Got a soft spot for him too.


EDIT: Tyrion didn't gang rape Tysha. Unless I've not yet arrived at this in the books yet. So far as I've read so far, she got away from those blokes trying to rape her, they ate food in an inn and spent the night together and had sex. Then they got married, then Tywin and Jaime tell him she's a whore and she gets thrown to the men to have their way with her. And they had to pay. Tyrion was just made to watch.

(If this is explained differently in ADWD then fair play, since I've not got through it yet.)

Edited by SleepingBeauty, 06 May 2012 - 05:03 PM.

[Howling Mad]

Wentwarth, on 06 May 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

Not being attracted to someone is not being prejudiced or shallow. Not giving someone a chance because of some physical trait they have is prejudiced and shallow. Sansa gave Tyrion a chance and tried to find him desirable and couldn't. I can't believe people are still saying that she should be able to find the ugliest man she's ever seen attractive to prove her maturity.

Let's put my quote in its correct context by referring to an early quote:

Howling4Reed, on 06 May 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

I readily admit there is an upside to Tyrion marrying Sansa.  The point you seem to reject out of hand is that there may come a time when reaffirming her marriage to Tyrion is both beneficial and desirable for Sansa.

[Nausicaä]

SleepingBeauty, on 06 May 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

Well there is that. She was a bit of an annoying cow though. And she did betray him. So I excused him for a few murders. Especially since he was wrongly accused of killing the evil JoffBeast.

Oh, so if you are an annoying cow it's okay for someone to slowly and painfully murder you? Good to know.

SleepingBeauty, on 06 May 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

EDIT: Tyrion didn't gang rape Tysha. Unless I've not yet arrived at this in the books yet. So far as I've read so far, she got away from those blokes trying to rape her, they ate food in an inn and spent the night together and had sex. Then they got married, then Tywin and Jaime tell him she's a whore and she gets thrown to the men to have their way with her. And they had to pay. Tyrion was just made to watch.
(If this is explained differently in ADWD then fair play, since I've not got through it yet.)

Tyrion was made to watch and participate and threw her a gold coin while the rest of them "paid" with silver. It's all in AGOT and ASOS. In ADWD

Spoiler

IIRC, he thinks of it as rape, not that it wasn't clear from the previous books.

[A Menina Cebola]

Wentwarth, on 06 May 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

Oh, so if you are an annoying cow it's okay for someone to slowly and painfully murder you? Good to know.

And at this point I exit the thread. Some may attempt to fight for their opinions. I don't really enjoy conflict all that much.
I suppose we will have to agree to disagree and accept that we all read the books differently and relate to characters differently. I'm Pro-Tyrion and Anti-Shae. Maybe because I could sympathise with Tyrion through his POV whereas all I had for Shae was how others saw her.

Interesting thread topic. I enjoyed the responses.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Let's see, Sansa is still a sheltered and carefully-reared highborn virgin, even with her experiences as a prisoner and Kings Landing and a virtual hostage of Littlefinger.

Tyrion is a drunk, a whoremonger, a kinslayer, an abuser of women, a woman-killer, a murderer of inconvenient people in general, a skeemer and a spiteful liar.  His dwarfism and scarred face are the least of his problems.

So Sansa should stay with a man who could have her cooked up in a stew and never think twice about it . . . why?  

To show how much she's grown?  How about Tyrion growing up enough to realize that girls aren't all about looks either?

Because you need a conclusion where the ugly outcast gets the prom queen?

Clichés, darlings, clichés.  Tyrion doesn't even like nice girls, although he's always ready to screw a pretty one.

I expect something much better – or at least different – from GRRM.

Of course I'm keeping my matches and charcoal lighter handy . . .

@SleepingBeauty -- generally, I don't like it when a poster responds by saying "a reread is in order," but I think you really do need to reread the bit about Tysha incident.  You have missed something very important.

[Nausicaä]

Howling4Reed, on 06 May 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

Let's put my quote in its correct context by referring to an early quote:

Sorry, I didn't realize that you meant desirable as a husband in that instance. But I still disagree with this:

Howling4Reed, on 06 May 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

It is exactly people's prejudice against Tyrion's appearance "hideous dwarf" a prejudice initially shared by Sansa

She hasn't treated him with prejudice because of his appearance, she has only treated him with prejudice because he's a Lannister.

[Kittykatknits]

SleepingBeauty, on 06 May 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

I always hope that they find their way back to each other. Sansa's ideals are based on a man being very gentlemanly and chivalrous. Tyrion is those things. He treats his women with respect, in a way. Even Shae, who was a whore, got a lot from Tyrion. He did everything he could to try and protect her wellbeing when they got to King's Landing. He didn't have to do that. If he had no respect for her, he'd just have found himself another whore.

He's intelligent, has some degree of common sense when it comes to war (maybe not physically, but he has displayed some degree of understanding of tactics) and he is wealthy and attentive. The only thing lacking from Sansa's point of view is the looks. But who knows? After being forced to grow up and see the world differently now she's in LittleFinger's clutches, she might go all Beauty and the Beast on him and realise that he is an excellent choice of husband deep down.

Maybe that's just me wishful thinking.

What part of Tyrion's treatment of Shae was gentlemanly and chivalrous? When he slapped her? Or told her that the only thing he valued was between her legs? When he scared her? Or, maybe it was when he killed her? As for him doing everything he could to try and protect her, the ONLY reason why she was ever in danger in the first place was him. He was very selfish throughout their entire relationship. His father told him not to take her to KL but he did it anyways. He made no attempt to get to know about her as a person despite his professed "love for her"

As for Sansa, it is made clear in the text that looks are not her problem. She is attracted to a man that had half his face burned off. She knows that Willas is crippled yet agrees to marry him, thinking that she would be a good wife and make him love her. These are not the thoughts and actions of a person who only thinks about looks. On their wedding night, she tries to find something about Tyrion, remembering that her Septa told her all men's bodies are beautiful. In the end, she sees his fear and feels pity instead which she then states is "the death of desire." In other words, this is a girl who is terrified and has had a horrible shock yet is still grown up enough to understand and even feel empathy for him as well. That is something many people would not be able to do.

As for common sense and witty, I'll grant you the witty. The common sense sees to come and go. He remarks to himself on several occassions that he doesn't seem to know when to shut up. He was also very good at making Joffrey angry, something that LF used to manipulate him.

SleepingBeauty, on 06 May 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

[b]

Well there is that. She was a bit of an annoying cow though. And she did betray him. So I excused him for a few murders. Especially since he was wrongly accused of killing the evil JoffBeast.

On the whole he seemed a far better choice than most of the other men available. Except maybe the Hound. Got a soft spot for him too.


EDIT: Tyrion didn't gang rape Tysha. Unless I've not yet arrived at this in the books yet. So far as I've read so far, she got away from those blokes trying to rape her, they ate food in an inn and spent the night together and had sex. Then they got married, then Tywin and Jaime tell him she's a whore and she gets thrown to the men to have their way with her. And they had to pay. Tyrion was just made to watch.

(If this is explained differently in ADWD then fair play, since I've not got through it yet.)

So being an "annoying cow" is a justified reason for murder? Good to know.

As for Tysha, he did take take part in the gang rape. He watched and then raped her too. He's bitter about Tysha for being a whore. He feels absolutely no remorse about her treatment until Jaime tells him the truth. So, if she was a prostitute, then apparently this treatment of her was OK in his eyes.

[Kittykatknits]

Wentwarth, on 06 May 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

Oh, so if you are an annoying cow it's okay for someone to slowly and painfully murder you? Good to know.

Tyrion was made to watch and participate and threw her a gold coin while the rest of them "paid" with silver. It's all in AGOT and ASOS. In ADWD

Spoiler

IIRC, he thinks of it as rape, not that it wasn't clear from the previous books.

He thought of it as rape but didn't feel remorse over it until Jaime told him she wasn't really a whore.

[Grumpy Midget]

This gonna devolve into another instance of ship-to-ship combat?  (runs off to grab popcorn)

I do remember the last post like this ending up with the HMS SanSan and HMS TyrSan exchanging broadsides.  Quite the fireworks.

Edited by Grumpy Midget, 06 May 2012 - 06:11 PM.

[Howling Mad]

Wentwarth, on 06 May 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

Sorry, I didn't realize that you meant desirable as a husband in that instance. But I still disagree with this:
She hasn't treated him with prejudice because of his appearance, she has only treated him with prejudice because he's a Lannister.

Acknowledged

[Lyanna Stark]

Howling4Reed, on 06 May 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

I see we are going to have to agree to disagree.  You have pigeon holed both Tyrion and Sansa into abject personifications which i refuse to do.  I give both Sansa and Tyrion credit for being capable of rising above their prejudices and current situations. While I can understand a position that has Sansa rejecting Tyrion because of the actions of his family or simply because Sansa does not love Tyrion, I reject the premise that Sansa is so shallow as to reject Tryion simply because he is a dwarf scarred from battle.

What? I base my reading of the personalities from the novels. Sansa as stated rejects Tyrion for several different reasons. She also isn't in love with Mandon Moore, Podrick Payne, Horror and Slobber, Jory Cassel, Moonboy, Ser Dontos, Lothor Brune or Osmund Kettleblack. I don't expect her to "rise above her prejudices" and randomly starts to feel starry eyed for them either. She recognises in AFFC that Tyrion assisted her, but she also recognises that she wants to be out of that marriage.

On top of all this, Tyrion is a Lannister and Sansa does not want to be a Lannister.

Further, in AFFC we see a Sansa emerge who takes pride in being clever, who is starting to enjoy figuring things out in the Game of Thrones and who definitely isn't a little chirping trained bird anymore. Why would she go back to being a docile, passive homemaker?

I also love how pretty Sansa is supposed to "rise above her prejudices" and fall in love with the ugly guy while a lot of the same people have huge issues with Brienne and Jaime, or Penny and Tyrion.


To summarise:

1. Sansa doesn't want to me married to a Lannister ever
2. After all the traumatising experiences, Sansa clearly wants to have a say in who she marrys, if she ever does
3. Now when she has experienced other things in life than just being a docile housewife, she probably doesn't want to go back to only having tea parties, doing emboridery and talking to septas. There is no reason for Tyrion to allow his lady wife to have any say in anything related to power. For reference, see what he wants of Shae, which is his description of an ideal wife.
4. Sansa finds Tyrion unattractive and physically repulsive

Quote

As for Tyrion and Penny the only thing they have in common is being short and in the same place at the same time. How this makes for a better marriage then two people raised and educated in noble houses that share a common culture puzzles me.

Tyrion never made Sansa smile. He makes Penny smile and laugh. When she smiles, he enjoys it. She manages to coax him into jousting on the dog and pig. He asks her to teach him what it is like being a dwarf in a hostile environment. Seriously, I think you should reread the Tyrion chapters in ADWD again. Even though Tyrion finds Penny's naivite and innocence occasionally grating, he also does genuinely connect with her in a way he never did with Sansa.

When he initially turns Penny down when she asks if he wants to tilt with her, he realises later that she might have asked him not for a literal tilt but something else, and he wished he'd let her down more gently.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 07 May 2012 - 02:38 AM.

[Natalie_S]

SleepingBeauty, on 06 May 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

I always hope that they find their way back to each other. Sansa's ideals are based on a man being very gentlemanly and chivalrous. Tyrion is those things. He treats his women with respect, in a way. Even Shae, who was a whore, got a lot from Tyrion. He did everything he could to try and protect her wellbeing when they got to King's Landing. He didn't have to do that. If he had no respect for her, he'd just have found himself another whore.

He's intelligent, has some degree of common sense when it comes to war (maybe not physically, but he has displayed some degree of understanding of tactics) and he is wealthy and attentive. The only thing lacking from Sansa's point of view is the looks. But who knows? After being forced to grow up and see the world differently now she's in LittleFinger's clutches, she might go all Beauty and the Beast on him and realise that he is an excellent choice of husband deep down.

Maybe that's just me wishful thinking.

I really liked the description of Sansa and Tyrion's marriage, because it showed that they were basically good people trying not to hurt each other, but the events raised a wall between them.
Tyrion was a Lannister, and even though he showed care and sensitivity towards Sansa, she just couldn't bring herself to trust him because he saw him as part of the family that killed most of her own family, and made her live as a prisoner in a city where she couldn't trust anyone.
On the other hand, Tyrion was desperately starving for a human contact and Sansa's armour of cold courtesy was the most hurtful behaviour she could have with him.
Besides, there's Tyrion's looks and the fact that Sansa has lived all her life dreaming of a charming prince: the husband she finds beside her is the most different man possible from what she wished for, and that's another barricade between them.
It would require a certain degree of maturity from Sansa to get over his physical appearance and eventually see his good nature and even his charms, but she's far too young for that.
But if they'll ever meet again when she's older... who knows!

(the SanSan shipper in me is hurting while I write this, though!)

[Natalie_S]

Kittykatknits, on 06 May 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

He thought of it as rape but didn't feel remorse over it until Jaime told him she wasn't really a whore.

I strongly disagree.
He's literally haunted by this memory, it's probably the most traumatic experience in his life.
He tries to rationalize it and say "it wasn't a rape because she was a prostitute and that was the job that paid her living", but it's clear that deep down he never quite accepted it.
In fact when Bronn says that he would have killed the man if somebody ever did to him what Tywin did to Tyrion, he answers "Maybe one day I will, a Lannister always pays his debts" (sorry, I don't have the book with me, I'm quoting from my memory).
Wanting to kill his own father for what he did is an evident proof that he wasn't fine with what happened to Tysha.