194 replies to this topic

[TheDarkOne]

Julian Rayne, on 24 June 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

If Cercei looses her trial, Tommen will not be King anymore.

Why?

[thunder_chicken]

TheDarkOne, on 25 June 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Why?

I believe part of the charges against her refer to incest with Jaime. True that's different than saying all of her children are Jaime's and not Robert's, but given Stannis' early letter, I'd imagine it would be a pretty good chance to get Tommen off the throne if someone wanted.

[Sphinx The Riddle]

Bane Lannister

[Frumpus]

TheDarkOne, on 26 May 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

I have a feeling the Faith might be able to find a Monk to fight Gregorstein. Perhaps they have a noivce one who is sick of digging graves and healed.

I really hope this does not happen. I am happy with the conclusion of Sandor's story and it would seem pandering to bring him back just for this. Sandor's Hound persona died and he's begun a path of redemption and healing. It would ruin him to revert back to the old Hound. Plus, he is clearly crippled now and I don't think his leg is going to magically heal in time for a fight with his dead brother.

[Solstice]

I also really hope that Sandor is not the one to fight Gregor. That would seem like such a waste of an absolutely fantastic arc ending in ambiguity. Just leave it alone, it's perfect how it is I think.

[TheDarkOne]

Solstice, on 25 June 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

I also really hope that Sandor is not the one to fight Gregor. That would seem like such a waste of an absolutely fantastic arc ending in ambiguity. Just leave it alone, it's perfect how it is I think.

Who would be a better choice then?

[Teabag]

TheDarkOne, on 26 June 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

Who would be a better choice then?

Going by Bran's dream from AGoT:

Quote

He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

It seems that at some point Jaime and the Hound will have to protect Arya and Sansa from Robert Strong. Whether or not this will be directly via combat, or by some indirect is up for debate.

I agree with previous posters that having Robert Strong lose the trial by-combat would be anti-climatic. I think Cersei will win the trial, but once she finds out about Sansa/Littlefinger/Harry the Heir she will send Robert Strong to kill them. It will be at this point that the Hound and Jaime will return. Additionally Arya will need to return somehow (perhaps she will be sent to assassinate Littlefinger?) but again this remains to be seen.

[JCrowley90]

The 'armored like the sun, golden and beautiful' figure in that vision could also refer to Oberyn Martell. It is unlikely that Robert Strong's helmet is literally flowing with black blood - i.e. the vision isn't a literal one where the Hound and the 'golden figure' will necessarily face off against the 'stone giant'. Bran may simply be having a "montage" of sorts of various significant figures in future events.

This doesn't disprove the Jaime/Hound-vs-Gregor idea of course, but it's far from a sure thing. Though such a fight when all three combatants were in their heyday would have been a truly awesome sight to behold.

[Teabag]

JCrowley90, on 26 June 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

The 'armored like the sun, golden and beautiful' figure in that vision could also refer to Oberyn Martell. It is unlikely that Robert Strong's helmet is literally flowing with black blood - i.e. the vision isn't a literal one where the Hound and the 'golden figure' will necessarily face off against the 'stone giant'. Bran may simply be having a "montage" of sorts of various significant figures in future events.

This doesn't disprove the Jaime/Hound-vs-Gregor idea of course, but it's far from a sure thing. Though such a fight when all three combatants were in their heyday would have been a truly awesome sight to behold.

I'm not sure about the armored, golden figure being Oberyn Martell. Jaime is famous for his golden armor whereas Oberyn Martell chose not to wear any armor at all when facing Gregor. Jaime is famous for his golden complexion and the Lannister association with gold, whereas the Martells have darker complexions and not such a strong link to gold. Oberyn hasn't really had anything to do with the Stark children whereas Jaime pushed Bran out of the window, has sworn to protect Arya and Sansa which IMO makes him overwheliming the most likely figure in the dream.

I agree that the dream shouldn't be taken literally, but it does foreshadow that these characters are under some kind of threat from Robert Strong and that the Hound and Jaime/the Golden Figure will have some role to play in events. I think a fight would be stretching things considering their injuries and Martin has never been one for lavish fan service so if the theory is true, I think we should see an alternative.

Perhaps Robert Strong only obeys Cersei so Jaime will have to kill her, choosing between his vow to protect the Stark girls and his loyalty to his sister? That way two prophecies/dreams could come true at once.

All speculation of course....

[JCrowley90]

All fair points, and I agree Jaime is a very likely candidate for the 'golden figure'. The only thing that puts Oberyn Martell in the spotlight is the mention of 'the sun'. We've had the Martells embodied as the sun in other visions, a la Quentyn the "sun that rises in the west and sets in the east".

Edited by JCrowley90, 26 June 2012 - 07:55 AM.

[TheDarkOne]

Teabag, on 26 June 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

It seems that at some point Jaime and the Hound will have to protect Arya and Sansa from Robert Strong. Whether or not this will be directly via combat, or by some indirect is up for debate.

Actually it doesn't seem like that at all. Instead it seems like these are figures that both girls would encounter on their journeys at different points.
To be kind, it's a little bit of a stretch to think this vision with vague descriptions of different people they both have or will meet is somehow indicative of a good guy team up between to popular characters to battle a bad guy. That reads as an outrageously over the top ham fisted narrative that I can't see GRRM every submitting to.

Please explain to me how you see this playing out that these two would team up to protect either girl and defeat Robert Strong.

On the other side, Sandor showing up to represent the faith and killing Gregor wouldn't be anti climatic at all. This confrontation has been teased enough and this would be a great way to end it, possibly with both characters dying during the duel.

[three-eyed monkey]

I always wondered about the name, Robert Strong, why Robert strong? Is there a hint here as to the identity of the head or was Robert really the coolest name Qyburn could come up with for his undead killing machine? Lets pretend for a minute there is a hint, leaving aside the fact that the following heads would look quite small on Gregor's body, as would any head really. Here's the two obvious choices. Robert Baratheon or Robb Stark.

Lets start with Rob B. His head is sure to be lying somewhere in Qyburn's reach. I can't remember if he's in the crypts under the keep of if Cersei had him mounted over the fireplace, but how ironic if her champion turned out to be her late-beloved Robert.

Then of course, Robb Stark had his head removed and Greywind's sown in place according to some reports of the red wedding. Was Robb's head returned to King's Landing to be fitted for a spike? If so Qyburn could have gotten his hands on it easily enough. I can only vaguely remember Qyburn's boast about Robert Strong being 'undefeated' or something like that, but if that is what he said then Robb Stark did die undefeated in battle.

Of course, Greywind's head could have an outside chance here too and I wonder which of the two Arya would rather face if she had to go through Robert Strong to get to Cersei someday? In this regard Lord Eddard would make another interesting choice, but that would mean the bones Cat recieved in Riverrun were not Ned's, not to mention how long Ned's been dead and how long his head spent on a spike. That would not be a good look, even for a frankenstein's monster type of guy like Rob Strong.

Edited by three-eyed monkey, 26 June 2012 - 05:11 PM.

[John Reynolds]

I think Loras is a strong suspect for the golden figure.  I imagine the Tyrells have just about had enough out of Cersei at this point, and they're likely to miscalculate and assume Loras can beat just about anyone, not quite realizing what's in that armor defending Cersei.

Edited by John Reynolds, 26 June 2012 - 08:07 PM.

[all_Freys_must_die]

I thought that Cersie's champion had to be from among the Kingsguard? Didn't she quash Quyburn's little smile when he said he had an unbeatable champion in Robert Strong by saying 'my champion needs come from the Kingsguard?

[SultryWolf]

Just want to say - great stuff, this thread. I might love Spec even more than I love Spoilers.
Keep it coming.

[Triskele]

all_Freys_must_die, on 27 June 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

I thought that Cersie's champion had to be from among the Kingsguard? Didn't she quash Quyburn's little smile when he said he had an unbeatable champion in Robert Strong by saying 'my champion needs come from the Kingsguard?

I am pretty sure that Robert Strong joins the Kingsguard.  I think that's part of the "He has taken a vow of silence until the king's enemies are dead" or something like that.

[bemused]

He is in the Kingsguard . That was the plan , to provide Cersei with an invincible champion.

In Kevan's epilogue , he muses on the fact that other KG are suspicious of RS because no one has seen him eat, relieve himself , or even remove his armor.

Edited by bemused, 01 July 2012 - 01:07 PM.

[HaflFaceless]

Trzysztof Trieślowski, on 27 June 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

I am pretty sure that Robert Strong joins the Kingsguard.  I think that's part of the "He has taken a vow of silence until the king's enemies are dead" or something like that.

It's stated in ADwD Epilogue that Tommen appointed him to the KG on Qyburn's recommendation.

Quote

But Mace Tyrell could not seem to see beyond the threat to his own daughter. “His Grace
named Ser Robert to the Kingsguard,” Ser Kevan reminded him, “and Qyburn vouches for the
man as well. Be that as it may, we need Ser Robert to prevail, my lords. If my niece is proved
guilty of these treasons, the legitimacy of her children will be called into question. If Tommen
ceases to be a king, Margaery will cease to be a queen.”

[Babeldygob]

Robert Baratheon has probably been buried and his head would be decayed too much by now, the same goes for Robb Stark's head. I think Robert is a common enough name for Qyburn to choose that. He would not choose a very distinctive name. People might think why they never heard of a Jaehaerys Killmachine. Just saiyan.

About Sandor. GRRM has said that he was wondering how to end his arc. In my view it would be unsatisfying if he just became a gravedigger. There's too much foreshadowing on The Hound fighting/killing his brother at some point to just be that IMO. Whether this has to happen at the trial is an entirely different point.

[Ida]

DeathFromBelow, on 06 June 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

It will be Sandor Clegane that fights Robert Strong. That is if you subscribe to the theory that Sandor is the large gravedigger at Quiet Isle. Being that Sandor is now a man of the faith, as the Elder Brother can attest to.

This is little of-topic, so please forgive me my curiosity.
Can someone please tell me about this theory?
I have never quite managed to settle down with the fact that Sandor Clegane was to die yet and so suddenly, when there always seemed to be more to his story, a reason or a purpose - or a closure.

I have wondered if Sandor may still be alive or revived in some form or way, but with so many of the characters it is quite a risk to get attatched to anyone - remember Ned Stark and The Red Wedding. No one seems off limit.